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#292516 - 10/25/06 09:47 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Hey john, you know, you're completely right about the whole compund trap thing, now that I htink about it more, I've only managed to use a 1 or 2 slaps or parries jun fan style at a time before going more free style and wrestling.
The problem is thta jun fan/wing chun style is too by-rote and requiers certain reactions form your opponent. it's an overly reactive method. You put too much in the hands of fate and the other guy.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#292517 - 10/25/06 09:57 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Damn right! Very well put.


-John

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#292518 - 10/26/06 12:03 AM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Cant argue with that John. To me though, If i can trap you, I can get into the clinch. If Im up close thats what I want. I want a good clinch and either a few good shots or a quick takedown. Or I want to back out and strike but its usually the clinch.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#292519 - 10/26/06 01:33 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: Stormdragon]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
To you all seeking a better way, but heres something to ponder. And your answers will be of much help to me. Please don't take this defensive it not meant to be.

So trapping and Wing Chun is becoming less of what JKDers are doing and more practicle applications are being used.
This is Ok because JKD doesn't have to adhear to any style but why was't this addressed earlier, in realistic examination. Are you just mimicking what works in the now popular MMA telecast. Do you really have to turn trapping or checking into a clinch or takedown. Can you not just angle or spin them and strike to the back of head or body, then knock them down???

Are you still being confined by a method that is popular not not always effective for everybody?

Countering with grabs, pulls and pushes to off balance and hit are still effective wouldn't you say espeicially if you don't want to go to the ground. If you could imagine that.

If you knocked someone down in a confrontation would U always want to try and mount them???

I'm not against ground fighting it should be practiced of course. But should always be the destination? If it is isn't that being trapped in a method???


Edited by Neko456 (10/26/06 01:35 PM)
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#292520 - 10/26/06 01:38 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: Neko456]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I use the clinch just because its a little easier for me. Also I dont always look to go to the ground and if I knock a guy down and Im standing Im either running or stomping his head then running. Depends on if I think he will get up and chase. I was NEVER a fan of trapping, before or after the "MMA Movement"
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#292521 - 11/01/06 05:34 AM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Reading BL's words;

Trapping is a technique that immobilizes or restricting your opponent movement capabilities while still giving you the opportunity for you to attack from an angle where he is unable to protect.

So basically, a clinch = trap. So I agree, stand-up grappling is a form of trapping as when in a clinch it gives the opponent very little choice for techniques.

So basically, Greco-Roman/Judo/BJJ/Sambo is all about trapping to go to the ground. Or am I wrong?

So, from a Judo point of view; blocking a punch to be able to grab an elbow, lock it and grab his neck to go into a clinch is a trap in my opinion. What can he possibly do from there? Unless he's good at clinch, he's more or less toast.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#292522 - 11/01/06 05:54 AM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: Taison]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


So basically, a clinch = trap. So I agree, stand-up grappling is a form of trapping as when in a clinch it gives the opponent very little choice for techniques.





Yep, that's the whole idea.


Quote:


So basically, Greco-Roman/Judo/BJJ/Sambo is all about trapping to go to the ground. Or am I wrong?





Yes, but not always. In fighting, you can also use many of the positions the way they are used in muay Thai to throw knees or elbows.


Quote:


So, from a Judo point of view; blocking a punch to be able to grab an elbow, lock it and grab his neck to go into a clinch is a trap in my opinion. What can he possibly do from there? Unless he's good at clinch, he's more or less toast.






Exactly! What this does is to provide a method for a smaller but more technical fighter to force the game into a skill situation as opposed to a power situation. You force your opponent to beat you with superior technique as opposed to dumb luck and brute power.

If you're the more technical fighter, you can use the clinch to your advantage and work to strike or take your opponent down. On the ground, we're all the same size in a sense.


-John

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#292523 - 05/14/07 09:26 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
So glad that we have expanded on what trapping really is. When people think of trapping they only think wing chun or possible fma. But trapping involves so much more like muay thai, judo, bjj, wrestling, sambo.

I have a question in reagards to the body clinch or wrestlers clinch, why would a smaller man body clinch with a bigger man, to me this does not make sence because i takes away all of his essential tools, his head butt, elbows, and knees. When someone body clinches to me it is because they are bigger and of superior strength. While I know bjj was based up the smaller man taking the bigger man to the ground to equalize many of the techniques used and giving the advantage to the more skilled man. This case being the smaller guy who initiated the ground fighting.

However, in a one on one street fight a smaller man would not initiate the body clinch correct? To me it is best if he sticks with the thai clinch and destroy his opponent from there.

The above scenario is just an example of a controlled situation. Please don't add any other variables or stimuli to it, I konw there are some dying to add extra assailants to the situation or maybe even weapons. But please don't, I myself am a beginner in the world of ground fighting and have no formal instruction in it. As many of you know I am learning off the on-line material I have been able to find.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#292524 - 05/14/07 10:30 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

So glad that we have expanded on what trapping really is. When people think of trapping they only think wing chun or possible fma. But trapping involves so much more like muay thai, judo, bjj, wrestling, sambo.





Yes. Trapping means to immobilize a limb. That can obviously be done using a variety of methods. To “limit” it to Wing Chun seems a bit absurd doesn’t it?


Quote:


I have a question in reagards to the body clinch or wrestlers clinch, why would a smaller man body clinch with a bigger man….





Can’t YOU think of any reasons? Here are two to get you started: 1) You may not have a choice. He may clinch YOU (which in that case, you still need a clinch game). 2) He may be beating you senseless in the free movement (long) range and you need to stop the bloodletting.

Seriously, if you are getting the snot beat out of you (unless you just happen to be the worlds greatest fighter), you clearly need an alternative strategy. That one wouldn’t obviously be working out very well I’d say. Thus the clinch. If you can’t run away, the only OTHER option would be IN.

Trust me, against a larger man who doesn’t have a clinch game, you’re not at that much of a disadvantage. I mean, he’s going to be larger than you no matter what or, in what range you happen to be in. Larger men can hit very hard if you’ve not noticed.


Quote:


…to me this does not make sense because it takes away all of his essential tools, his head butt, elbows, and knees.




Its quite simple. You’re just missing the point. You see, the bigger guy has all the essential tools himself. He has the head butts, elbows, knees as well. Not only that, he’s going to have the potential of being more powerful with them as well.

Lets call the clinch the “attached” range (“trapping”). If you’re not attached, you’re allowing an “exchange” to occur every second you aren’t attached. An exchange with a larger opponent isn’t a very smart idea. I’m sure you would probably agree.


Quote:


When someone body clinches to me it is because they are bigger and of superior strength.





Not always bro. Don’t make that assumption. There are some smaller guys who are DEMON wrestlers. Wrestling has a LOT of technique and leverage. Don’t underestimate it as a combat art.


Quote:


While I know bjj was based up the smaller man taking the bigger man to the ground to equalize many of the techniques used and giving the advantage to the more skilled man. This case being the smaller guy who initiated the ground fighting.

However, in a one on one street fight a smaller man would not initiate the body clinch correct? To me it is best if he sticks with the thai clinch and destroy his opponent from there.





How else would the smaller guy get the larger guy to the ground then (if he avoided the clinch)? Surely you’re not suggesting shooting in (not to say that such things aren’t viable but I wouldn’t want to get caught under a sprawl against anyone)?

But there’s nothing wrong with using the Thai clinch. In my opinion, the wrestling clinch is superior to the basic Thai clinch. While I know that “plumm” means “to wrestle”, I believe the wrestling game of WRESTLING is superior to the wrestling game of muay Thai.

In short, a pure Thai boxer wrestling with a Greco guy is going to end up on the losing end and getting slammed on his head. Thus, the wrestling clinch takes priority of the standing, clinch and strike game. BOTH however are necessary. Both can also lead to takedowns. I just want to base all of my wrestling games on wrestling arts and not striking arts. Make sense?

The clinch IS wrestling. Thus, learning to wrestle is crucial.


-John

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#292525 - 05/19/07 02:39 AM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: JKogas]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I also want to add to John's post, that Muay Thai clinch involves very little head-movement as opposed to wrestling where there's a lot more head movement while in the clinch. Hence it's a lot more difficult to nail a wrestler with a strike from a wrestling clinch, than it is to nail a boxer with a strike from the MT clinch.

Plumm involves no head-movement whatsoever because it is based on holding your opponent's neck to limit his head movement. However, we all know that the ideal clinch doesn't exist and that it will depend solely on what you're able to grab to determine what clinch you're going for.

I, myself, use wrestling clinch because it's been PROVEN more efficient, and I'm a sucka for throws

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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