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#292506 - 10/23/06 12:54 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: MattJ]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Not sure if it's the same as the one in JKD. But I do trappings, mainly from judo though.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#292507 - 10/24/06 10:52 AM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: Chen Zen]
PastTheWall Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 104
Loc: London
Our normal classes include a small amount of trapping, like pak sau / lop sau drills - but I also go to classes that are exclusively trapping - masses of it, and I love them. For some strange reason the complexity of trapping helps me more with digesting the "less" complex syllabus. I don't know why, but it does. I think it has helped me a lot, and I wouldn't drop it.

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#292508 - 10/24/06 12:14 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: PastTheWall]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Since JKD is a practical application fighting Concept how practical is trapping and how often can you apply it sparring or fighting. Most JKD seminars seem to be less trapping and more hitting. Is trapping practical in JKD anymore. How many JKD Kwoons still teaches Wing chung as its base?? Kali/Kick boxing seems to be its base here except for the Norman branch JKD sifu, almost an inner circle guy, I forgot his name just now.

Done simple and to control I find it very applicable if its not your main stay after you hurt them, check or grab their limbs and pull them into your pounding, works at times.
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#292509 - 10/24/06 08:02 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: Neko456]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Personally I ver rarely if ever do it. To me the practicality isnt there. Its all about simplicity. The idea sounds good and works well against joe barstool but against someone of higher caliber it may get you hurt.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#292510 - 10/24/06 10:15 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Neko456 wrote
Quote:

Since JKD is a practical application fighting Concept how practical is trapping and how often can you apply it sparring or fighting.





Trapping is EXTREMELY practical and very high-percentage – when we broaden our definition of what “trappling” exactly is.

The trouble is, most people view trapping as wing chun style, as in; pak sao, lop sao or gum sao, tan sao, etc.

Another problem is that the training methods used to develop that skill-set are often ineffective (“dead”).

Yet when I broaden my interpretation of what trapping is, I’m not limited to the wing chun approach. What I have found to be superbly effective for trapping are freestyle and (especially) Greco-Roman clinch wrestling techniques!

In that sense, I’m trapping EVERY single time that I spar. Not only that, but it actually works as well.


Quote:


Most JKD seminars seem to be less trapping and more hitting. Is trapping practical in JKD anymore. How many JKD Kwoons still teaches Wing chung as its base??





What I have found is that wing chun methods are antiquated. That approach isn’t the best to take. A more modern training approach is needed. Greco-Roman and freestyle “trapping” work INFINITELY better than the wing chun methods. Ultimately though, how it’s trained is more important. Train dead and you can expect dead results.

I once asked Joe Lewis (yes, “the” Joe Lewis) about his time with Bruce Lee and his opinion on trapping done the wing chun style. Lewis replied (on trapping); “I’d leave that stuff at home unless you enjoy being knocked into next week”.



Quote:


Done simple and to control I find it very applicable if its not your main stay after you hurt them, check or grab their limbs and pull them into your pounding, works at times.





Again, I’ve found trapping to work wonderfully – but not until I dropped the wing chun and began adding the wrestling. I’ve been doing it that way for more than 10 years. I’ve not found a better method in that time.


-John

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#292511 - 10/24/06 11:59 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: JKogas]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Jkogas

I wish I could see an example of Greco Roman like trapping. People see wing chun and get the wrong impression on trapping, Trapping is not something thats clean, infact nothing in the mnartial arts that actually is practical is done cleanly. It only looks that way when practcing. Anyone who is a serious practitioner and veteran knows this.

As I've stated before and everyone seems to agree, you never EVER look for the trap, Trapping is something that just happends and your lucky if you can even get one trap off, because in actuality you just supposed to be attacking. Trapping is not defensive, it's not like blocking, whih a lot of people seem to think it is. Trapping is moving the block which is the obstile which has block your attack; you are moving that obsiticle out of your way. So that you may continue your attack. It is not pretty and there is no time to trap and admire your work then strike.

I have the feeling people think trap+trap+trap = strike. WRONG WRONG WRONG.

It's more like attack+attack+attack+obsticle+trap = attack again.

You may not even get the chance to trap, you just keep going. This ofcourse it the wing chun/JKD method of trapping. As I said, I would love to see Greco Style of trapping.

Oh and by now it's almost certain trapping will not work on a bjj guy, as they will clinch you immedietly, but it will work on someone who does not want to take you down.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#292512 - 10/25/06 05:36 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: TeK9]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I'm not so sure, I've used some basic traps, similar though not exactly like wing chun, and often look for them and they work pretty well, most fo the time, although I wouldn't spend my life working that kind of trapping, it's only so useful.
Basic "checking" is morel iek what I do and it's effective.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#292513 - 10/25/06 06:08 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: TeK9]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Jkogas

I wish I could see an example of Greco Roman like trapping.





I’m kind of glad you’ve not seen it. That’s what I like best about it – no one considers Greco-Roman wrestling a “martial art”. No one knows what it looks like or better yet, how to deal with it. Gotta love that!

Quote:


People see wing chun and get the wrong impression on trapping, Trapping is not something thats clean, infact nothing in the mnartial arts that actually is practical is done cleanly. It only looks that way when practcing. Anyone who is a serious practitioner and veteran knows this.





I understand your point to an extent. You have to remember though, you PLAY LIKE YOU PRACTICE. When your practice is all nice and tidy, that doesn’t translate well to real fighting.

Not saying that simple slap blocks and grabs can’t work. I do that all the time. I’m talking about COMPOUND trapping as practiced by wing chun and Jun Fan guys. Have you ever seen compound trapping pulled off against anyone worth a sh*t? I haven’t.


Quote:


As I've stated before and everyone seems to agree, you never EVER look for the trap, Trapping is something that just happends and your lucky if you can even get one trap off, because in actuality you just supposed to be attacking.





Trust me, I understand. I’ve practiced Jun Fan for years. I worked my trapping for quite a while. Never got more than a simple couple of slaps or perhaps a lop sao once. There really isn’t much point in even practicing the way that wing chun and JKD guys do – which is one of my main points.

You’ll get better results from wrestling.


Quote:


Trapping is not defensive, it's not like blocking, whih a lot of people seem to think it is. Trapping is moving the block which is the obstile which has block your attack; you are moving that obsiticle out of your way. So that you may continue your attack. It is not pretty and there is no time to trap and admire your work then strike.






That works in theory but in my experience, doesn’t really fly in the real world. Here’s my opinion on why that is: Trapping is a defensive tool. It works off of a person’s defensive reactions as you’ve mentioned. The problem is, attackers, ATTACK! They usually AREN’T reacting. It’s usually the person who has BEEN attacked that is reacting. There is no time to trap when some is in front of you throwing Tank Abbott style haymakers.


Quote:



I have the feeling people think trap+trap+trap = strike. WRONG WRONG WRONG.

It's more like attack+attack+attack+obsticle+trap = attack again.





Again, I understand the principle. I just don’t see it happening that way outside of a wing chun school.


Quote:


You may not even get the chance to trap, you just keep going. This ofcourse it the wing chun/JKD method of trapping. As I said, I would love to see Greco Style of trapping.

Oh and by now it's almost certain trapping will not work on a bjj guy, as they will clinch you immedietly, but it will work on someone who does not want to take you down.





Would you not consider the clinch as a “trap”? If not, why not?



-John

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#292514 - 10/25/06 06:56 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
The clinch is rerally the only "trap" I use. But to me it falls more under the category of Grappling than trapping.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#292515 - 10/25/06 08:49 PM Re: Trapping as part of the JKD Curriculum [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I consider trapping to be grappling though, but that's me.

If you can either hit or grapple, what then is trapping if not momentary grappling?

Then, consider what a trap is designed to do (ie, "trap" a limb). Grappling does so and does it well.


-John

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