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#292218 - 01/18/07 08:56 AM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: Midnightcrawler]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Everybody has the right to say 'no'. They just have to understand the consequences. A financial transaction buys you a certain amount of training, or time, or whatever is specified in a contract. If you refuse training you renege on that contract...and are in different territory.

Something to consider: a financial contract doesn't begin to address the social contract.

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#292219 - 01/18/07 09:07 AM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: trevek]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
"the customer is always right" This statement comes from an inflated ego in the customer IMO. I'm not attacking any specific person when I say that; I'm referencing my experience with the public. I work with software that has encrypted files, and we've had repeated requests for the encryption keys. Everytime they are asked for, they are told NO. We can't give them out because it would cause security issues. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. However, if the "customer is always right" we would have to give them out each time they're asked for. Back to the dojo. My instructor doens't accept a "no". His method is: if you can, do it. If you can't, try your best. Consumers have rights and I think everyone understands that, however, most sales, regardless of the type are a contract. As most people know, when a contract is signed, some consumer rights are given up to enter the contract. The right to say "no" may have been given up in this specific case. We don't know the details so we can't say for sure. A consumer is still responsible for researching what they are purchasing and making sure the product is right for them.
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

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#292220 - 01/18/07 10:24 AM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: Ronin1966]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Quote:

Hello Scottie:

<<not if it interferes with my ability to maintain order and respect in my dojo/dojang.

Now the crux of the issue Scottie... Help explain...IYV/IYE how the simple statement NO is non-respectful towards the dojo at large?

Jeff




As I stated in my earlier post, if there is an explanation for why they refused, it is sometimes a legitimate occurence and they can sit out for a bit till they can compose themself. If they are simply refusing for no reason, simply to be argumentative or simply to cause a power struggle, that can be very disruptive. I don't see why that is difficult to understand.

When is it acceptable, in any other teacher/student relationship for a student to refuse a teacher without a legitimate reason? If health, safety, or morals are involved, fine. If they simply refuse just for the sake of saying no? Is that ok to do to a professor at college? A teacher in high school, some one training you for a certification towards your job or career? No. If you choose not to learn, I can and will choose not to teach you and spend my time with someone who wants and is willing to learn. To me, it is that simple.

Scottie
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#292221 - 01/18/07 10:34 AM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: Midnightcrawler]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Midnight

Starting to not to want to speak with you anymore.

We keep saying that some folks don't appraoch their dojos like a business---and YOU keep insisting that they MUST do so.

But many people DON'T view it that or behave that way or look at it that way--so most of what you post is irrelevent to many of us.

We don't look at that way at all.

2nd Problem, I went back and read the orginal post--ther was NOTHING in it that strikes me as being a "drill instructeor."
NOTHING at all---your dragging in all sorts of stuff that orignal post did NOT.

To me. IMO, the first post was a perfect example of a snotty attitude that I personally simply would not wish to have in my school.
From a BUSINESS perscpective THAT PERSON WITH THAT ATTITUDE is bad "PR" for my business.
Let them say what they want--chances are anyone that knows them will consider my refusel to deal with their drama a GOOD thing--might even get me MORE business.

3td problem--your conflating loseing a student to loseing your house and going to jail.
NONE of that is in the orginal post--waaaayyy beyond its scope.

Plus, I already gave you several perfect valid business reasons that an owner might wish to "fire" a student.

You ignored them.

Don't mind having discussions.

DO mind when people start getting irrational and not reading other folks posts.

Happy to keep talking--as long as your actually willing to discuss the situation and not just keep endlessly "drum beating" a flawed point.


Edited by cxt (01/18/07 10:36 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#292222 - 01/18/07 10:59 AM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: cxt]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
CXT,

Well have it your own way, its no skin off my nose. All it takes is one brassed off (former) customer to report suspected irregularities to the tax people and a dojo owner could end up in deep brown smelly stuff. That is if they haven't been business like in their approach to running the show.

Oh and I never said that anyone 'had' to be profit orientated it isn't compulsory, it just seems silly to not make some whilst your at it.

If as you say, "many don't look at it that way", how do you look at it? Serious question, I don't know, so if you have no objection I'd appreciate a serious answer.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#292223 - 01/18/07 11:01 AM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: Midnightcrawler]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA



Why don't you start another thread on that topic...as it doesn't seem at all related to the original topic?

Quote:

CXT,

Well have it your own way, its no skin off my nose. All it takes is one brassed off (former) customer to report suspected irregularities to the tax people and a dojo owner could end up in deep brown smelly stuff. That is if they haven't been business like in their approach to running the show.

Oh and I never said that anyone 'had' to be profit orientated it isn't compulsory, it just seems silly to not make some whilst your at it.

If as you say, "many don't look at it that way", how do you look at it? Serious question, I don't know, so if you have no objection I'd appreciate a serious answer.

MC.



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#292224 - 01/18/07 11:10 AM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: harlan]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Harlan,

Of course its relevant and related. If someone starts throwing individuals out its a racing certainty that resentment will be generated. In a fair number of cases that resentment could well be articulated through that individual reporting irregularities to the appropriate bodies, irrespective of whether there is any truth there. Its what is sometimes referred to as 'generating a revenge mentality'.

As on-one else had pointed it out, I thought I would.

With respect.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#292225 - 01/18/07 11:11 AM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: harlan]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Quote:







I agree. Lets try to keep this on topic and civil people. I don't want this to turn into another "dojo as business" fight. If it continues to degrade, I will lock this thread.

Laura

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#292226 - 01/18/07 11:25 AM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: tkd_high_green]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Laura, I think it has reached that point now. I do not see any further productive discussion coming from this but hey, I am the one who thinks a dojo/dojang needs order and respect to be an effective one so what do I know?

Scottie
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#292227 - 01/18/07 12:40 PM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: RazorFoot]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Razorfoot,

You probably know a hell of a lot. Its just that I believe we have encountered what is known as 'diversity of opinion'. All I've done is to point out potential pitfalls in taking what I believe is a too strict or if you prefer 'militaristic' approach to what is essentially someones hobby.

Going back to the original post, the woman in question wasn't disrupting a class, as this occurred after the 'formal training', so no other customer was inconvenienced. It was that I took the view that the original poster was looking to go way over the top just because a member of their Dojo was exercising one of their their basic human rights.

Not all people train for the same reasons, and I think that is something we all tend to lose sight of. Maybe because we are all somewhat focused on our own reasons and therefore think that everyone else is the same as us. For instance I train in order to get as far as I can, but, I'll know when I get there and at that point I'll stay where I am quite happily. If at that point whoever is my instructor tries to push me further then I'll stop altogether on the basis that I'll not be pushed by anyone. The same applies to when I'm weight training in my gym, I'm the one in charge of my body and when it tells me its had enough I listen to it. The woman concerned transpired to be in her late 30's, so maybe she had reached the stage where despite asking for additional tuition her body told her no, and she listened to it. That is no reason to discipline her or throw her out.

Hope this helps.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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