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#292208 - 01/17/07 04:13 PM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: BulldogTKD]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
CTX, Harlan & Bulldog,

Yes you are right, in that you also have the right to say NO. What I saw in the original posters attitude was a denial of your customers right to say no. This was not a nurturing individual (and a mother to boot, glad I'm not one of her kids) but a dictatorial one. Like OH you've disobeyed me get down and do an unbelievable number of press ups. Tell you what, the second word that would have come out of my mouth under those circumstances would have been off.

What an unbelievable attitude, the woman is a customer for Gods sake, she has a RIGHT to say no, just as anyone else has, including yourselves. I have said this before on an MA forum, but I believe that it requires repeating. The question is: what is a customer? Answer, a customer is someone who; puts a roof over your head, clothes on your back, food on your plate, a car on your driveway and pays for your pension.

They do not get the same benefits from you. Therefore, the customer is KING, whilst you might decide to cut your nose off to spite your face by booting a customer out, if you alienate enough of them or one very influential one, its you who's income will suffer, not theirs. All of this in reality in the name of not losing face. So who now has the big ego?

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#292209 - 01/17/07 04:22 PM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: Midnightcrawler]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Please don't include me in any responses about students being customers.

As a student, I don't consider myself to be a customer. I'm not 'buying' anything...although nothing is free.

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#292210 - 01/17/07 04:25 PM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: harlan]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Harlan,

So you train for free? Ok, no charge = no contract under UK law. In that case no your not a customer as a customer ids someone who pays currency or promissory notes in exchange for goods and services.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#292211 - 01/17/07 04:53 PM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: Midnightcrawler]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Where the consumer model breaks down is when either party confuses the difference between wants and needs. In many situations both parties are ignorant to what the real needs are. In some cases, one party may understand the actual need involved. It doesn't take a great deal of skill, insight or vision to give someone what they want. It takes more insight and skill to understand what someone needs. It takes great skill to help someone actually want what they actually need. If the customer believes they are Napoleon I would I be doing them a disservice if I treated them like a king.

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#292212 - 01/17/07 05:02 PM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: Midnightcrawler]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Agreed with MNC, students are customers if they pay for our teaching.
They pay to get better at the MA simple as that. Not to pamper our ego.

As for the prehistoric 20 press ups type punishment, LOL, perhaps you could have a USMC guard at the dojo door as well….

That’s simple bullying, hidden behind the “character building” excuse

But I also agree with those that have said the students would be asked to leave. I asked loads { and I do mean loads} of students to leave.

I Suppose some of you would slap them about a bit first, to ensure they didn’t come back?

We often state that as a high grade MA we should demonstrate humility. Patience and even mildness…… then when someone disagrees with us ,and actually refuses as is there right, we turn into a tyrant!!!!!
How wonderfully old fashioned of some of you, I hope you get sued.

Mark

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#292213 - 01/17/07 05:09 PM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: Midnightcrawler]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Midnight

"Customer is king" ONLY applies if your running a commercial dojo.
If you don't see your school as a wholly commercial enterprise then that saying no longer applies.

The underlaying assumtion of all your posts seems to be that people are teaching JUST for the money and I'm not sure that holds.

Many of the dojo I have trained in have been run by folks with a pretty good "day jobs" the extra money was welcome--but they certianly were not depending on it to make ends meet either.

As far as "who has the big ego now" commment--its also flawed.

The underlaying assumptoion THERE is that all other considerations should be cast aside when money is on the table.

If one does NOT worship at the feet of the "money is everything" alter then that assumption is ALSO moot.

If however one wishs to view it as strictly a business then AGAIN, there is no reason to assume that its about "ego" at all.

Perhaps the owner reasoned that it was "better" in the long run NOT to give in to the students demands.

Perhaps they activily market themselevs as a "tough no nonsense" teacher.

Perhaps they don't have the resources to indiviualize a class for each and every person.

Perhaps the person is in otherways disruptive and they would be better off focusing efforts on more lucritive students.

Who know???

Point is there may be good sound business reasons why a business may choose to "fire" a customer.

Assuming that its ALWAYS about "ego" seems an error.

I went back and read thu the orginal post.

Does not sound to me like the teacher did anything wrong here.

Sounds to me like a snotty, bad attitude person who is sucking up time/energy and space that could be put to better use for more lucritive students.

From a business persepctive, sounds like she is unhappy all the way around and will probably quit anyway--so the less time, effort and energy you waste on them the better.

That is if your talking "business."


Edited by cxt (01/17/07 05:20 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#292214 - 01/17/07 09:28 PM Students Who Say "No" [Re: RazorFoot]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Scottie:

<<not if it interferes with my ability to maintain order and respect in my dojo/dojang.

Now the crux of the issue Scottie... Help explain...IYV/IYE how the simple statement NO is non-respectful towards the dojo at large?

Jeff

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#292215 - 01/17/07 09:51 PM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: cxt]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Sounds like she may well bugger off the give the enterprise an awful reputation if she isn't given the courtesy she is reasonably in a position to expect. OK, I don't want an argument over this but facts are facts. No customers = no MA organisation, reduced numbers = reduced income. Brassed off customers = submissions to the IRS about excess undeclared income. Yes this has happened in the UK + no MA organisation, MA proprietor in Jail, family without a home and no income. Does that sound like an equitable outcome? I didn't think so.

MC/
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#292216 - 01/18/07 05:44 AM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: Midnightcrawler]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
When you agree to train or study in a school you agree to accept the teaching methods. If you don't like them then you have the right to go elsewhere.

Your refusal to adhere to the teaching methods can lead to a breakdown in discipline and THE WASTING OF SOMEONE ELSE'S TIME AND MONEY. How often have you been paired with a partner who doesn't want to train? How often have you been trying to train and there's a pair of giggling girlies who'd rather talk about Johnny Depp's manhood than do the drills or padwork? And your money is floating out of the window by the hour...

The inital poster was speaking of a 'customer' who wanted help[ to pass an exam which was, presumably, costing her more money. The tuition was taking place after normal time (if I am correct) and she refused, so she was wasting the instructor's time. The instructor can now say, "Well, you aren't financially worth the extra effort, you've got your money's worth in class and now you can pay for the grading and fail and pay again..."
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#292217 - 01/18/07 08:49 AM Re: Students Who Say "No" [Re: trevek]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
trevek.

Sure, I wouldn't argue with your logic. What I would argue with is the mindset which wants to deny the customer their right to say no. I guess that most of us who post here live in a free and democratic society, where the individual has the RIGHT to say no, I'm not going to do that, whatever 'that'
happens to be. Failure to accept the individuals rights leads the way to a dictatorship type situation, which has never been acceptable to any free thinking and fair minded society. The situation in Iraq being just the latest example of many throughout history.

MA instructors are just that, instructors. They aren't drill sergeants or regimental sergeant majors, and the dojo isn't a parade ground.

With respect.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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