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#291183 - 10/05/06 06:22 PM Longfist videos
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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A user over at MAP put together a nice collection of videos featuring different longfist forms. Enjoy!

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=983469#post983469
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#291184 - 10/05/06 06:50 PM Re: Longfist videos [Re: MattJ]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
You know, when I posted links over there to this forum here, they closed down my threads. I must say that's why I prefer the relaxed and accepting atmosphere here.
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#291185 - 10/05/06 11:00 PM Re: Longfist videos [Re: Leo_E_49]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Does anyone mind my asking what is so great about those forms? I mean, I'm just curious really. I checked them out and couldn't find ONE good thing about them relevant to fighting (looks like a dance routine performed by people who can't dance).

That being the case, I'm just curious to see what everyone finds so SPECIAL and interesting about them. I am sincerely interested in hearing what you have to say about them. What about watching them do you like? What is it about performing them that you like (if you do in fact do these forms).

I know we have some forms lovers here. Enlighten me.



-John

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#291186 - 10/06/06 01:36 AM Re: Longfist videos [Re: JKogas]
pepto_bismol Offline
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Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 480
Quote:

Does anyone mind my asking what is so great about those forms? I mean, I'm just curious really. I checked them out and couldn't find ONE good thing about them relevant to fighting (looks like a dance routine performed by people who can't dance).

That being the case, I'm just curious to see what everyone finds so SPECIAL and interesting about them. I am sincerely interested in hearing what you have to say about them. What about watching them do you like? What is it about performing them that you like (if you do in fact do these forms).

I know we have some forms lovers here. Enlighten me.



-John




A lot of long fist forms flow pretty beutifully, and I like to see the nice stances and the differant techniques.

I am under the impression that most martial arts derived from shaolin, shaolin has a lot of long fist forums, so if you think the forms are just a dance, then do you also believe that the shaolin kung fu is just a dance? Or is it just the that you are not that interested in forms in general?

I think a lot of traditional karate forms look impractical, and like a stiff dance, but that doesn't make them innefective, right?

Anyway I have been doing wing chun for a while and am a huge fan of it, and the science behind it. Since the long fist is kind of the opposite of wing chun, I like to imagine the person doing the form is my opponet. And according to the legend of Wing Chun, her teacher was a shaoulin nun named Ng Mui.

and for the GOOD thing relevant to fighting, think of the deep stances creating powerfull legs. Or the fluidity and relaxation that these forms seem to have. I am sure it has it's place in the battlefield.
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#291187 - 10/06/06 05:56 AM Re: Longfist videos [Re: pepto_bismol]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina


pepto_bismal wrote

Quote:

I am under the impression that most martial arts derived from shaolin, shaolin has a lot of long fist forums, so if you think the forms are just a dance, then do you also believe that the shaolin kung fu is just a dance? Or is it just the that you are not that interested in forms in general?




I'm not interested in forms, no. I think they're a waste of time for the most part.


Quote:


I think a lot of traditional karate forms look impractical, and like a stiff dance, but that doesn't make them innefective, right?





I do not believe that forms are ever "effective". Doing a FORM doesn't make a person a functional fighter. Many fighters become functional and capable without every doing the FIRST form. I've not done a form in EONS. If they aren't necessary at all, you can then easily see that their role in training is minimal and truthfully, unnecessary.


Quote:


and for the GOOD thing relevant to fighting, think of the deep stances creating powerfull legs. Or the fluidity and relaxation that these forms seem to have. I am sure it has it's place in the battlefield.





ANY form of fighting will develop certain physical attributes as it is. Otherwise I'm into weight training for most of that. I'm of the opinion that the more time spent doing forms, the less time you have for functional training.



-John

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#291188 - 10/06/06 08:07 AM Re: Longfist videos [Re: JKogas]
Fisherman Offline
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Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
I think that first we have to look at what the form is supposed to be training and the reasons behind training a form in the first place.
From what I have experienced, forms help to train structure, fluidity of motion, principles and techniques, and most importantly focus.
Forms are not necessary to acheive these things. There are other ways to train where you can acheive all of the above, forms are just a tool invented to cater towards a particular martial art for training them.
Another reason form doing forms, they provide decent exercise and some people like doing them. Not everyone is into martial arts to become a fighter, some just do it because they like it.
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#291189 - 10/06/06 09:20 AM Re: Longfist videos [Re: Fisherman]
RazorFoot Offline
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Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
And then there are some who enjoy a combination of the two. I do enjoy sparring, fighting, competing, and testing my skills against another trained fighter but I also enjoy learning all that an art has to offer, including forms.

For a time, I couldnt stand them because I couldnt understand the meaning and purpose behind them. It gives you another perspective to training to help sharpen the finer points.

If you want to be a good fighter alone, then you truly do not need them. If you want to learn the MA, then you do as it is part of the art. If I simply wanted to drive a car, I could get in and drive well by training with someone who was a great driver. But if I wanted to learn completely about them, that would include the maintenance side as well. Not everybody needs to be a mechanic but it gives you a deeper, fuller understanding of the car. I think forms do the same thing for the art. Just my opinion.
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#291190 - 10/06/06 10:04 AM Re: Longfist videos [Re: JKogas]
ThomsonsPier Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Reading, UK
I have found that movements in the forms I have been learning have made me think about moving in ways that I may otherwise not have considered. I'm not saying that I couldn't have learned these some other way, just that I was taught the movements and figured out some things that worked by myself and at my own speed.

A lot of the arguments for forms and kata seem to be unquantifiable in a sense, as the methods of movement within them can define the 'feel' of the art as separate from other, similar arts.

I agree that they're probably not necessary to develop fighting skills, but I enjoy doing them and they provide one of the few occasions where I feel I can move gracefully and physically express myself. If you ever see me dance, you'll know what I mean. Sometimes it's nice to have movement for movement's sake.

Other than that, it's a handy catalogue of techniques and combinations that I can refer to whenever I want, making it easier to remember than, say, learning thirty punching combos and practising them individually. Having said that, I do practise form sections on a punchpad and we experiment on each other in classes.

I enjoyed watching the form videos, too.
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#291191 - 10/06/06 12:33 PM Re: Longfist videos [Re: RazorFoot]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I think the really difficult thing to understand is how looking at forms from a system you don't study ties into their development scheme.

While far from a Chinese stylist, I have studied a bit from my Tai Chi instructor and would like to offer some observations.

In the Northern Chinese Systems (including the Ching Wu <and all variant spelling> Association) the forms are never studies alone. They are studied alongside two person sets, often of complex length and in turn that is used for their random free sparring practices.

In fact in many of the Northern Systems the forms are stepping stones, after you move past some of the forms you don't continue their practice, because all of their basics are contained in the more advanced forms and if you're practicing them correctly you don't need them (except of course for instructors).

With such system diversity that is only a generalization.

But the forms do build complex movement skills, and they have very long traditions behind them.

The YouTube phenomena allows us to look, but rarely shows enough to really see where the entire picture goes.

So we're a 1/2 step ahead of before, but if you think thats the full picture....
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#291192 - 10/06/06 12:45 PM Re: Longfist videos [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
John -

I view this forum as having many functions. Among other things, I like to think of it as a library or repository of information. Seek and ye shall find.

In that sense, even though I personally have little interest in forms, I have heard the term "longfist" for a long time. What is it? What does it look like? I really didn't know. So, I happened across some info and figured that maybe others would be curious as I was.

I think others have pointed out that there are other reasons (cultural, historic, etc.) besides strict functionality regarding forms. To each his or her own.
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#291193 - 10/06/06 12:52 PM Re: Longfist videos [Re: MattJ]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Matt,

As Ernest Rothrock explained it to me Northern Long Fist is a system into itself. I recall he described it as using clean long range techniques. When Wu Shu was created Long Fist became sort of the compulsory standard competition devision (this is earlier WuShu) similar to old figure skating forms.

As Longfist has been around for long time, much of it's forms were absorbed into other Northern Systems and enhanced for those systems standards.

Just labeling forms Longfist, may or my not be accurate as I think the label has become more generic for a type of system movement, instead of necessarly the original longfist system.

The 2nd form on that list I had studied a long time ago, Gong Le Guen (spelling from memory) was translated into English as Power Fist (likely not a litteral translation).

IMO, the forms demonstrated are more traditiona than modernized too.
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#291194 - 10/06/06 11:46 PM Re: Longfist videos [Re: Victor Smith]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[Fisherman wrote
Quote:


Another reason form doing forms, they provide decent exercise and some people like doing them. Not everyone is into martial arts to become a fighter, some just do it because they like it.





I understand that completely.


Razor foot --

I donít know that your analogy is the best one perhaps.


ThomsonsPier wrote
Quote:

I agree that they're probably not necessary to develop fighting skills, but I enjoy doing them





That would have sufficed with me.


Victor Smith wrote
Quote:



Ö.and they have very long traditions behind them.





I believe thatís why theyíre done more than perhaps any other reason. Tradition for the sake of tradition.


MattJ wrote
Quote:

John -
I view this forum as having many functions. Among other things, I like to think of it as a library or repository of information. Seek and ye shall find.





Of course.


Quote:


In that sense, even though I personally have little interest in forms, I have heard the term "longfist" for a long time. What is it? What does it look like? I really didn't know. So, I happened across some info and figured that maybe others would be curious as I was.

I think others have pointed out that there are other reasons (cultural, historic, etc.) besides strict functionality regarding forms. To each his or her own.





I understand Matt. Iím merely asking these questions because Iím simply trying to see through the eyes of others.




-John

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#291195 - 10/07/06 12:51 AM Re: Longfist videos [Re: JKogas]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Look let's longfist to the Max. I've taken some time to compile the following. Enjoy,

Many of the Northern systems do their form on an East-West axis. Long fist reportedly being the 'grand-daddy' also uses this embusen.

If you look at the classical longfist forms you will see how elements from the system were used in later form development.

Yi Lu ChaQuan Classical LongFist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH5CCqAtcgc
Er Lu ChaQuan Classical LongFist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpWELFWecvM
San Lu ChaQuan Classical LongFist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOaIi4HB2SM

Look at the differences between the contemporary and the classical forms.

ChangQuan - yi - Contemporary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObiygVWC-1Y
ChangQuan - Er - Contemporary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xFPWNMaeAQ
ChangQuan - San - Contemporary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEllGdmG7K8
ChangQuan - Si - Contemporary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS7zs80tcjk

Youíll see some repetition of the classical longfist throughout the following forms.

WuShu-LongFist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHUq4yGgg94
Xiaohong Quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU3Cb60oAQ0
Lianbu-quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-xTb73wB7s
Erlu Maifu (2nd Ambush)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFGyGwy38dM
Shizi-tang Quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boY5No1LPQo
Shaolin Quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY2Z0IvNNz4
Bagua Dandao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ffUu8TqC-w
Shaolin taizu changquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ap1Ee9ftPY
Zhao Changjun - Changquan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Ij5NAOmKs

This basic form Gongli-quan (powerfist) was a form I once studied. It was part of the Chin Woo Association basic forms sets. This set also includes Tam Tuie. A student would study them before they branched out into the individual instructors personal style (so all the association members had the same basics).

Huo Yuanjia was the founder of the Chin Woo Association (guess what current movie is about his efforts?) and the style taught a combination of arts - ďBecause Huo was widely admired as a Chinese national hero, a series of other masters agreed to teach at the school including Eagle Claw master Chen Zizheng, Seven Star Praying Mantis master Luo Guangyu, Xingyi master Geng Xiaguang, and Wu Jianquan, the founder of Wu style Taijiquan. ď from the Winpedia.
Gongli-quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zorsx50Dhss


Iíve found an older Eagle Claw, Mantis and Northern Shaolin Set that I think lets you see the Longfist influence in part, even with their stylistic differences.

eagle claw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umy1NRtVfx8

Mantis Taiwan 1964 (1of3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5XMIQrvinM&mode=related&search=

Northern Shaolin Cross Battle Form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_ILMRctJQA

Kungfu Long Fist (Small Cotton Fist)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5814774077973210441&q=martial+arts+staff&hl=en

Remember too the forms are but a part of each of those systems, extensive two person sets, extensive weapons work (to develop the grip and overall physical ability) and of course sparring practices, all combine for each systems potential.
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#291196 - 10/08/06 06:16 AM Re: Longfist videos [Re: Victor Smith]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Another component of Northern Arts are the low kicking techniques from Tam Tui.

White Crane Tan Tui
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt5nN5i2xMc

Lam Kwong Wing - Tan Tui
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwJtxgh535Q

shilu de tan tui
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiKwzMg9LTk

Han Chingtang
This takes place in 1965 Tapei Park. It starts of with Han Chingtang performing performing Si Lopen Da and Tan Tui. At the end his sudent performs Hsing I and Yang Chia Chang spear form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiyKZBHN958
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#291197 - 02/17/07 06:14 AM Re: Longfist videos [Re: JKogas]
Peter32 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 10
One of the things that the forms teach are basic ways of movements; how to use your whole body to develop power.

I've always had to come up with my own martial applications for forms (Oh, my Sifu would give me some, but I also needed my own). This led me to disect them and say "How can I use this as a Lock/Strike/Throw" on all the movements.

Once in a while I'll think of a movement and say "Hey that could be effective." And then I almost always realize that it's from such and such form.

However, as you said Forms are not neccessary to become a good fighter; they do supplement your training quite well however.

Along with them you need the free sparring, the body conditioning, the bag work, etc.

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