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#291037 - 10/07/06 08:00 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
btw...the shukokai training was by circumstance and not sought (our dojo blending into Shito-ryu practice when there was a change of sensei). Kimura sensei adapted what he taught into our Goju curriculum. It was Shito ryu with a heavy lean towards it's nahate but with the emphasis of kimuras unique way of teaching and training body mechanics.

anyway,
I understand what you are saying, but thats not realistic to expect to learn all there is drawing from one point of view, med. Even people who were trained by Miyagi himself, saw goju in a different and deeper light by looking at HIS teacher's influences...which are differing Chinese systems....and Miyagi did the same. not because their instruction was lacking, but perhaps because things don't always become apparent unless you get a diferent point of view. -and everyone is diferent.

I don't mean to go off on a tangent, but a great historical 'cross-trainer' is Leonardo DaVinci. granted, a much different Art, but the process seems similar. He built better war machines and painted with more realism by his study of human anatomy, for instance. doesn't mean his initial painting instruction was lacking.

another example: If a Karate instructor has a Ph.D in anatomy, will he be able to fully impart the connection of karate to it? or wouldn't the student gain some more insight to those connections by a concurrent study of anatomy?

my instructor can mention the connection of Goju to other Arts...but does that mean I necessarily physically understand all of those connections built-in to one system? personally, I don't believe so. That doesn't mean the style, system or teacher is lacking - it is what it is and it's up to me to physically make those connections.

not to mention, that 'styles' aren't only physical realization. Nagamine studied deep into Zen and it's philosophical connection to Karate...that 'state of mind' affects action. That is just as much a part of his Matsubayashi as the physical influences he received from his various instructors....is that 'state of mind' always imparted during Matsubayashi instruction at the same level of depth? or would it be a deeper study for the student to 'cross-train' in meditative practice?

besides all of these points, I think in any system, the wider truth lies outside of it's boundries....and nobody can teach it all. what I'm saying in this thread is that there were not always these boundries to even consider or restrict prior to karate's formation of 'systems'.

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#291038 - 10/07/06 01:19 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes, but all these things are good to study to gain a better better insight into karate, but at the right time. All I have ever been saying is that cross training is good, but to gain a better insight into your karate. However, there is a time and a place for it. In okinawa you would study with one teacher then move on. Or your own teacher would send you to another to fill in the gaps of what you did not know. Or your teacher would die and you would seek to deepen your understanding. Is this the way it is done here, no. People say, why doesn't karate have this or that. Then they go to learn a style that does and say that it is better without truly learning what they were initially studying. Then they come back to enlighten their karate bretheren. Basically they get into a habit of learning everything half a_sed and would have benefited more from getting a solid base in their core style. Once that base is developed they should go and seek out other ways of seeing things. The bottom line is if your are below the yudansha level and have time to "cross train" then you weren't training your karate hard enough in the first place. If you cross train before the Sandan level and don't go back to deepen your understanding and "properly" integrate your new knowledge into your karate knowledge then 9 times out of 10 you won't be able to properly blend your new knowledge into your old. You will just be doing two different arts, and thats okay. But if you have the proper base in your style then there is nothing wrong with it and more power to you. Hell, I have been known to roll BJJ and step into the cage every now and then. But I'm somewhat Sadomasochistic anyway.

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#291039 - 10/12/06 02:59 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: medulanet]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Thats one point of view, you did say you wrestled early on and obviously retained that skill. Thats called cross training. Thats basically what I've done is I teach a Trad art but as they advance, they need to know variations of how other systems work and move. Karate is not a catch all.

As for your Karate not being trained right if or because you seek to study other arts. I think thats bolongey, Karate is not a catch all it is a effective method of defense. But the more you experince you have, the more you understand. I've worked with and sparred in a lot system from Boxing to Kuntoua each had something to teach and share. Each seem to have its perferred range and techniques it thought most effective, within its limits. Karate has its perferred range, TKD and Thai Boxing has their's, JJ and Silat do to, and BJJ or wrestlers have a certain perferred range.

There is no Perfect fighting system just as there is no perfect Karate (No matter what some people say or think, now this is just mho). The practictioner has to make his art, it does not make him, and if he is honest he can be his worst enemy because you know your own weakness and if you don't you haven't been up against the right competition. Some people throw names of Famous Sensei/Sifu/Gurus/Professors but no matter how great your teacher if YOU don't study hard you will never be any good
at your art. The real meaning of Kung-fu inspires me here, it ain't really about fighting its working hard to excel at anything that you do.


Edited by Neko456 (10/12/06 03:01 PM)
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