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#291027 - 10/06/06 03:57 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
One of the things I have not touched on yet is the idea of the dojo as a community. In my mind my training is not just about what I want. Part of the committment to a dojo is learning to work through the relationships that are uncomfortable or problematic. In terms of growing the whole person I think staying in a situation gives us the opportunity to work out or problems with others and ourselves. Personal change if if is going to happen takes time and the opportunity to reflect. This can be done in a succession of schools or in one. Often times people leave a dojo or style only to have the same problems at the next not realising thay they are part of the problem. That is one benefit and perhaps one reason some teachers encourage remaining rather than leaving.

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#291028 - 10/06/06 06:53 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thats a good point...whats 'advanced'? it may be a personal definition and based partly on what type of initial training they receive. but I think roughly a guideline is perhaps about 10 years of part-time study...whatever rank that translates into.

oldman, also a good point...I don't teach, so I guess I was being a bit selfish in my thinking and looking at it from purely a student's POV.

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#291029 - 10/06/06 06:58 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Interesting point. I was only thinking from the student end...of what 'I' might get. But on the other hand, at some point, one 'becomes' a representative of a teacher and an art. A walking example of a ryu. To train in other styles is also to represent that accumulated knowledge and competancy to others.

I wonder: what is the motive on the other end? Of styles that are eager to take on new students?

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#291030 - 10/06/06 07:01 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I think you said the answer to that yourself...a teacher is often judged by the quality of their students.

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#291031 - 10/06/06 08:38 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Most "legit" styles do have a definition of what an advanced practitioner is, and time in art is not at the top. Rank and skill are different. There are people senior to me in rank and time of study who are not as advanced as me, and I assume there are those who are my junior who are more advanced than me. In my style of Matsubayshi I believe that truly advanced training starts when the fixed sparring or yakasuko kumite are expanded upon by the student in a free flowing manner with many of the grappling apps in karate. This is the bridge to developing advanced kata application. This is also when many of the underlying principles are really explored by a student and the time in which he begins to free himself from the confines of his kata. In karate that is the ultimate goal. To find freedom within kata, not outside. And that is exactly the reason why cross training is not good for those who are not ready. When people replace karate techs with stuff not to expand upon what is known, but because they want to fix what is not broken or believe they have to go outside for things they do not believe is contained in karate it will be difficult for them to achieve that which is advanced.

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#291032 - 10/06/06 09:16 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Look at the combinations forming okinawan karate: dozens of chinese systems, okinawan wrestling, jujutsu, etc. There's no pure system, that's almost impossible to have. EVERY old master learned form multiple sources.
Cross training is unavoidable and why not, it makes you better.
Why do people get weird with this?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#291033 - 10/06/06 10:27 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I agree with you, but I think you are missing a piece.

sometimes things don't become self-apparent unless looked at from an alternate angle. you can look at something for too long and still not realize it.

same with physical knowledge. you can practice something for too long and not 'realize' it (meaning not physically realize the underlaying principles).

for instance, the deeper meaning of 'kime' would never have come to me on my own in quite the same way if I had never had the shukokai training that I did....it improved my goju (or what I thought to be goju at the time).

the reason why no style is an island is not because of inherent flaws in the system....but because of everyone's differing way of really learning particular deeper aspects of it.

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#291034 - 10/06/06 11:55 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes, but who combined all of these systems. Not Grandmaster Sensei Joe Schmo down the street. The "legit" systems were created by exceedingly talented marital artists in ingenious ways. Who said there was a pure system, in fact I don't know if that exists. Okay, maybe Okinawan karate is pure, a way to purely whoop someone's a_s about 150 different ways. Cross training makes some people better, but it destroys the karate of others. Some people learn SOME karate, then learn boxing, and add it to their karate and call it karate still, but their hand work is that of boxing and not karate. They believe they are using karate methods, but they are not and they are passing what they created on as karate. Then you have a generation of misinformed individuals. However, if that person took the time to develop a solid understanding of his karate in the first place and then studied boxing he could enhance his knowledge of the principles of karate with his knowledge of the principles of boxing.

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#291035 - 10/06/06 11:58 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Okay, but the reason why you needed the Shukokai training was because your goju was incomplete. Would you need it if you were working with your current teacher from day one?

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#291036 - 10/07/06 12:02 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Get weird? Oh, I love it when karate guys think they found the holy grail and come back to show me. The weird part is when my fist has to be surgically removed from in between their ribs because they didn't quite know how to put things together the way they thought they did. And I'm really not that good.

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