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#291017 - 10/05/06 03:09 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Shoshinkan (and others )

An excellent point!

One of the main differences is that back in the day--the "old masters" crosstrained not only with the direct involvment of their main/prime teacher--when possible.

But they did so only after in-depth, long term training in their main style as well.

It was not a case of a "newbie" taking classes from 3 different arts and three different teachers at the same time.

It was the deliberate expansion of study from a well-delevopled and in-depth studied style.


Edited by cxt (10/05/06 03:10 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#291018 - 10/05/06 03:43 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: nahate]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Chung do Kwon would be my guess.

Welcome Nahate

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#291019 - 10/05/06 03:50 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: oldman]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
(Oldman...do you read minds? )

Welcome to the forum, Nahate.

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#291020 - 10/05/06 04:02 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
A really good thread on judo's Kano, part of it addressing cross training with Aikido's Ueshiba.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15765803
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#291021 - 10/05/06 06:48 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Shoshinkan:

Excellent point ~sanctions~ were admission I understood something sufficently (at least one way) that I won't get easily confused... and am capable to explore/examine other doors. And you could be right but I still tend to disbelieve "then" is so radically different from "now". Availability-accessability is likely different but I am confidant there were the identical self-stimulators, blowhards and looneys and always shall be such. Without a depthful foundation-study how do I absorb anything deeply enough? I get lots of variances, nuances and subtleties bouncing around to different arts but no bone-fide depth. 12 ways to throw that single punch but insufficent understanding why its done that way. WHY is always important...

Dig one hole deeply not ten shallow
Jeff

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#291022 - 10/05/06 07:35 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ronin1966]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Of course perhaps the biggest difference for our modern world is one of function,

im suspecting that generally the martial arts were of far more pratical definition years gone by.....very serious business,

im also fairly convinced that a weapon would have been the first choice in a ruck.........

World of difference from training twice a week to win the touney aint it! O rperhaps dropping the kids of a the dojo whilst Mum shops................

LOL
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#291023 - 10/06/06 01:13 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree totally though purely competitive American Master Chuck Norris stated the same thing, he notes that is why his Tang-soo-do system was improved (competition wise) because he burrowed Japanese/Okinawan hands and Judo in his self defense.

I've always wondered how a system that started from a mix could be pure. But I will say that a foundation needs to be formed before cross training or you will miss alot of fine points, the foundation should be 3rd kyu or Shodan imho.
Then return to your base or continue to build upon it.

Great post. Question who sold that idea? Loyalty to one system. The Instructors coming over? or Teachers of Okinawa? or the Businessmen of USA and Aboard?
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#291024 - 10/06/06 02:43 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Neko456]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Neko,

I would go a bit further than sho-dan, at least time wise (say 8-10 years, IMO, would give a good base). And I'll also add a few other observations.

One, that some folk will be satisified within a McDojo and as long as they are happy and content with what they have, no problem. Some folk like artificial pancake syrup and detest maple syrup..partly because of lack of exposure which may be due to their systems being cloistered in an environment protecting it from exposure to the outside. Insular groups exist. Some for their own protection against peeking eyes and change, others because they are afraid to show less than skillful use of their style in a comparative (not necessarily competitive) arena. But in any case, the final choice has to be an individual one to take on other extracurricular studies.

As far as competent instruction, this is harder. All of us here seem to think we have effective studies in a syle that offers more than mediocre utility, but one cannot gauge how others train unless you actually go there and see for yourself, or if looking from afar, contains technical understanding which seems to be on a par with what you expect from competent instruction. This competent instruction, btw, should not be cowed by any other instruction that is offered elsewhere. What hopefully happens is that other training brings a renewed interest in what has already been presented...and again this all goes back to good, fundamental teaching in a core style.

Beyond this, I have always noted that there is a slight nod and wink when one goes out to take in other styles, like visiting restaurants with different cuisines. But there is always a slight bit of disapproval if you are vested in a place that specializes, say, in Italian food, and you go out to try the lasagna elsewhere...but no real problem with trying the Mexican place down the street.

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#291025 - 10/06/06 03:24 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I think when karate started being spread worldwide, the intentions were good to encourage proficiency by suggesting to stay with one Art...at least during initial training to define a base.

what I was calling attention to, was places that forbid or looked-down-upon exploration to other arts later in their study (ie: advanced students wishing to better understand their own) concurrent to advanced training in their base art.

I'm not talking about the phenomenon of students aimlessly 'dojo hoping', or someone always looking for something better than the last. I'm not even referring to people who mix and patch a bunch of things to create their own frankenstein-ryu.

I'm talking about meeting up and training with a dojo/person of a different Art and talk/show/train the differences and share observations in order to gain an alternate perspective of your base art. we don't know what insight it will gain, if any...so there is no predefined goal...just see what you see.

and yes, I do think adversity to that way of thinking started when teachers were worried about student retention for whatever reasons.

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#291026 - 10/06/06 03:52 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
'Advanced' student is still a student...still learning a particular system. Do you mean, when one is proficient in a system to be able to teach it (what is that...3rd or 4th dan?), but still a 'student' of the art?

Quote:

what I was calling attention to, was places that forbid or looked-down-upon exploration to other arts later in their study (ie: advanced students wishing to better understand their own) concurrent to advanced training in their base art.




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