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#290997 - 10/05/06 10:20 AM Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be.
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Cross-training in other Arts and even other styles within Karate was the way of almost ALL of the founding pioneers and inheritors of systems.

Only until post-WW2 did the concept of 'style-loyalty' become prevailent in Karate practice. This manufactured loyalty had more to do with organizational and finacial commitments than so-called keeping lineage 'pure'.

Martial Art lineages are never 'pure'...masters of their Art hardly ever have the opportunity to pass on 100% of their knowledge to one person. often they pass it on over a period of time to multiple people - each person takes away their own 'version' of what they absorbed...and so on. Thats not even mentioning the fact everyone has different influences during their lifetime study. Those influences add and change their 'path'.

anyone trying to sell 'true' or 'direct' lineage is doing just that: SELLING.


let's take a look at some Karate pioneers/founders and inheritors martial resumes PRIOR to them fully developing their system.

Shoshin Nagamine - studied karate when a kid in a neighbors backyard, style unknown. took Kendo in high school. trained another type of Karate with Kotatsu Iha. after H.S. he became a student of Taro Shimabokuro and later Ankichi Arakaki. later, training under Chotoku Kyan, then Choki Motobu. He also corroberated and cross-trained with Chojun Miyagi and his large circle of influences. Initially from Funakoshi's writings, he began to see and add a larger philosophical meaning to Karate...eventually leading him to serious Zen study.

that's seven or eight sensei prior and during his formation and development of his Art that is passed on today.


Sokon Matsumora
Had several instructors, influences and corroberations.
Chinese Kenpo
various Fukien boxing methods
influences from Kusanku via Tode Sakugawa
white crane

and who knows what else or from whom.

Kenryo Higaonna
studied under Sheisho Aragaki
then various art influences and instructors from Fuchou, china
His influences to and from others back on okinawa were too extensive to list. The Art he taugght was VERY eclectic.

In fact, it might be easier trying to find ONE significant Karateka which did NOT have multiple influences and teachers.

There is a rich heritage of sharing Arts in Karate ...not necessarily to the public, but within trusted and advanced circles regardless of 'style' (which didn't have as much meaning then since everyone was a bit of this and that).

All karate under it's surface is the same, the variations are in the way that base knowledge is prioritized and expressed.

The ONLY reason instructors now address cross-training in the pejurative saying things like:
"student of many, master of none."
"dojo hoppers."
"watered down."
"impure lineage."

etc...the only reason why it is just now frowned upon is because either:
1. They have bought into it from their sensei telling them the same.
or
2. They have a business/reputation to protect their 'product'. They see their Art as a trademark not the mark of a trade.
or
3. Student retention. If an instructor's Art can stand on it's own, they need not fear their students to be aware of what else is out there. an instructor telling students: "you need full comitment to THIS art...or you'll get nowhere in your path" -is frankly, full of doo-doo.

next time they say that, ask them what influences their style founder had...and why the style-loyalty rule didn't apply to them for gaining proficiency in Karate.

I once asked my current instructor: "Do you mind when I meet and train with others and of dissimilar arts?" he said: "Heck no...if you see something good, share it and we'll take a closer look at it."

I think thats the way it once was.

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#290998 - 10/05/06 10:29 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
ooooh good post!

You know I hate the whole 'pure okinawan lineage' thing,blegh!!
Myagi's goju was influenced by several arts as well. I'm glad to see that the old masters were all for seeking better or different training just as I am.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#290999 - 10/05/06 10:37 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Brian, Here is the perfect argument ender to these 'pure lineage' guys....ask them:

"Name ONE Okinawan Karate instructor in history which only had 1 influence and passed on 100% of their teacher's Art."

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#291000 - 10/05/06 10:54 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Good point, Ed. The whole "pure = better" argument seemed pointless to me in light of the good instructors that were not "pure". Good training is good training, no matter where it comes from.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#291001 - 10/05/06 10:54 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
One of my sempai used to describe aikido as 6 blind men trying to describe an elephant - everyone has a piece of the puzzle. What he didn't mention, was the other blind men outside of aikido also had a small piece of the puzzle.

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#291002 - 10/05/06 10:56 AM Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Mr. Morris:



I cannot say as I was not there myself. But I wonder (and its pure speculation obviously) regardless of the art/teacher whether those folks studied in the manner which many (sic. too many) are today "cross-training"?

If I started in -te and then went to college and picked up kendo, then after university get employed at a third locale forced to study new things did I study each of those things at the SAME TIME ?

I studied them intensively, and seriously... each and every one. But did they do them simultainously...???If I have experience, a foundation on which to filter/build I might learn a new practice/art more easily. But I am required to learn them in the same way the beginner does. If I don't then I get pieces of the core receipe... Not bad but only a snippet of what deeper experience provides. Cross training is excellent, but far deeper training in a few things seems best.

When they switched from art to a new practice and back again. What kind of martial foundation did these people possess when they did so ? And were the "new additions" haphazard or specific for particular reasons I wonder...?

J

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#291003 - 10/05/06 10:59 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: eyrie]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Eyrie:

<<6 blind men trying to describe an elephant - everyone has a piece of the puzzle.

Did/do they speak the same language ???

Jeff

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#291004 - 10/05/06 11:01 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Great post! But I suppose it depends on what you're looking for.

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#291005 - 10/05/06 11:49 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
true...but not necessarily. what if someones Art was without predefined destination? just a 'I'll find what I find' approach. not wandering, but actively exploring.

ever walk a trail regularly and then one day notice there are actually several less worn paths branching from the well-worn one? isn't it interesting to learn where they lead? ...maybe even follow one for a while ...to just see what you see.

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#291006 - 10/05/06 11:55 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Many paths/streams, but only one Source. Again, it depends on what one is looking for. I recall a story about Miyagi traveling with his students to check out a teacher with the reputation of having an unbeatable style. Call that 'cross training'. As far as learning something new, it turned out to be a less than satisfactory trip. But what I find intriqueing was a comment he made to one of his students on the way back to town. 'Still no teacher.'

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#291007 - 10/05/06 12:12 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I see what you mean now. excellent point. I believe Miyagi's quest was to capture as much of his teacher's Art as possible...since K. Higaonna died relatively young, Miyagi seemed to have sought out his teacher's influences.

wrapping it more formally into a 'style' was incidental to what was happening to karate at the time, and Miyagi's focus/path changed.

with any Art...the focus leads to a quest for the 'essence' of it....whatever the person thinks that to be. perfection of movement, perfection of character, perfection of fighting skill, perfection of spirit, or whatever mixture of ideals thereof.

some think they get there by seeking out 1 person on a lineage chart, some by calculating what skills are needed for the ideal and seeking those out, while others might find by not seeking.

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#291008 - 10/05/06 12:16 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Ed,
I have taken some heat,(mostly raised eyebrows and gentle ribbing) from my teacher regarding extracurricular training. Our head guy is known to frown upon the idea but I do not hear from him directly about it.

Outside of my style I have explored Aikido, judo, Oyata Ryu Te, and both Japanese and Brazilian Jui Jitsu. My exploration came after shodan and most after nidan. I have been discretely candid about all of it.

The most recent time that I was chided My reply was that in our founders bio Won kuk Lee was said to have looked into chinese and Okinawan arts after studying with funikoshi. I told the person that had commented that I feel it would be disingenuous of the system to to deny me the freedoms that the founder was himself able to explore.

I know a few folks to whom loyalty is a concept they take seriously. For example if someone provides you a great service (auto repair) a person may go out of their way or pay a bit more to them not just because they are the most convienient now but in part because of the relationship and past service. I think loyalty is a manifestation of enlightened self interest.

Having said that...

One can demand Loyalty but it is unseemly. It can be a beautifull thing when it is given freely. As with marriage loyalty and fidelity have their benefits and probably their limits.

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#291009 - 10/05/06 12:23 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think one of the biggest differences of 'old' style cross training was that it was often done by direction of one's Sensei, not always but often.

This tends not to happen as many modern 'Sensei' are motivated by power trips, control issues and financial gain.....

I guess the modern world is just different, people expect so much more and if they want it they take it.

I dont have a 'lineage' and taking a general view of many people I know who have (or think they have), thats no bad thing.

It generally only brings poor a attitude of superiority to martial artists, mines better than yours kind of attitude.

Do I cross train, not really but I will happily train with anyone who has something to offer my art, generally thats damn good karate people, ie with good character.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#291010 - 10/05/06 12:52 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: shoshinkan]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
The way I look at, being a newbie, I want what my teacher has got. Whatever 'it' is, a skills set, a toolkit of techniques, understanding of principles...'it' was acquired through years of searching, examination and testing. Somebody else has already done all the hard work, the synthesizing, of a body of knowledge that I want. Personally, when everything I want is right in front of me...why would I look elsewhere?

It comes down to a good teacher. A good teacher won't discourage a student from seeking...but finding is up to the student.

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#291011 - 10/05/06 01:04 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: harlan]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
It also comes down to expectations and the ultimate understanding that as good a teacher is, we can't be them or have what they have got, all the time.....

im pleased your happy harlan, I am to!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#291012 - 10/05/06 01:07 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: harlan]
kensai1 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 52
Loc: Ohio
after nakayama sensei took over shotokan from gichin funakoshi sensei he moved to china to train and study more. it would have been interesting what he incorporated or tried to incorporate then into shotokan.

mike

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#291013 - 10/05/06 01:42 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
nahate Offline
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Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 54
Loc: No VA suburbs of Wash DC
While it is certainly true that the originators of today's systems drew on a variety of sources they probably didn't need to select from such a profusion of hucksters and half-baked systems.

One legitimate reason for an emphasis on purity of style today is that most martial arts instruction is of such poor quality that it will undermine rather than enhance a comprehensive understanding of a life-enhancing and very effective art.

Since the training of Miyagi and others was systemized too many servicemen returned with just a few years training and opened their own dojos, self promoting themselves. Many of these had sincere motives but lacked a solid foundation. Others were charlatans of the worst order.

A long and continuing attachment to an urdoju can insure that one is being exposed to the real thing.
I had the great good fortune to begin training under Kimo Wall in 1973. He has been associated with Higa Seiko Sensei's Shodokan Dojo since 1961.

I have trained in other disciplines, notably Uechi Ryu and some Tae Kwon Do. I found that the similarities reinforced my Goju and the contrasts helped Goju stand out in sharper relief. I have also found little that could compare to the classical training I experienced and continue to enjoy. But I have even discovered a few solid gold nuggets buried among the piles of manure that comprise the mcDojo world.

In summation, cross training and studying other arts is useful and important. But an established lineage to a genuine system helps provides a barometer for all subsequent training.

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#291014 - 10/05/06 02:19 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: nahate]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
To a certain point I agree. However, I think there are three things one always has to take into consideration: 1) Why are you training what you are training (what do you want out of it all); 2) Does what being offered encourage further, extraneous knowledge/skill pursuit; and 3) How does it affect the individual student? A secure heritage might offer genuine benefits since curricula have been established and knowledge and skill assured by the organization at large. But lineage may offer considered orthodoxy over student defined utility.

This can occur on two fronts, where one is in the midst of the McDojo empire and commitment to the belt for bucks factory creates its own ecosystem that has to stand apart, or fail for its own insipidness. The other would be where ego in the hierarchy stops those underneath the umbrella organization from attending other instruction, despite the want of the students to do so.

In the end, training elsewhere and in other systems has to be considered an individual choice where a “competent” individual can readily determine what benefits himself. Imposition from above should not be the cause of stopping one from gaining other experience, even if it should prove that what you have is better than what you’re offered.

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#291015 - 10/05/06 02:50 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: nahate]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I agree. I don't think extra-curricular training benefits to be haphazzard or random either....but rather as enhancing the understanding of the core study.

for me, it's less of an issue since I only practice part-time and have plenty on my plate just focusing on core instruction as it is. but, I have no doubt that the right Tai Chi class once a month or so would improve my understanding of Goju - if even ever so slightly. I'd think nothing of it to join in on 1 or 2 Aikido classes every six months, just to practice how to fall correctly for Goju training! lol

As oldman mentioned in his case, there are instructors who would even discourage that level of tangental study....which I'm saying is nonsensical and particularly when they use 'tradition' as an argument.

The point is well-taken about the usefulness of 'direct line', and it's true that lineage (to an extent) is the only initial indicator within a minefield of hucksters today.

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#291016 - 10/05/06 03:07 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually there are many sensei that practice classical arts that send their students out to study from other sensei of a wide variety of arts. However, that is after developing a solid base in their core style of okinwan karate as well as a GOOD understanding of the principles it contains. This individual is then able to have a greater and more well rounded understanding of their art and develop into a complete fighter/marital artist. The problem is when someone who is a p_ss poor practioner of their art decides they are the sh_t and goes out seeking more instruction. They change the art, hype up their own credentials, and attempt to pass it on as the original teachings they never really received in the first place. So rather than giving those losers the go ahead to bastardize what the okinawans have created they tell many people not to. However, even Shoshin Nagamine said if you find a better way of doing things then use it as reported by his son Takayoshi Nagmaine. Now the problem is this is meant after truly understanding what he taught. Not after taking an intro to kardio karate class with the kids and the Desperate Housewives. I mean the real deal.

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#291017 - 10/05/06 03:09 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Shoshinkan (and others )

An excellent point!

One of the main differences is that back in the day--the "old masters" crosstrained not only with the direct involvment of their main/prime teacher--when possible.

But they did so only after in-depth, long term training in their main style as well.

It was not a case of a "newbie" taking classes from 3 different arts and three different teachers at the same time.

It was the deliberate expansion of study from a well-delevopled and in-depth studied style.


Edited by cxt (10/05/06 03:10 PM)
_________________________
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#291018 - 10/05/06 03:43 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: nahate]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Chung do Kwon would be my guess.

Welcome Nahate

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#291019 - 10/05/06 03:50 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: oldman]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
(Oldman...do you read minds? )

Welcome to the forum, Nahate.

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#291020 - 10/05/06 04:02 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
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A really good thread on judo's Kano, part of it addressing cross training with Aikido's Ueshiba.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15765803
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#291021 - 10/05/06 06:48 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Shoshinkan:

Excellent point ~sanctions~ were admission I understood something sufficently (at least one way) that I won't get easily confused... and am capable to explore/examine other doors. And you could be right but I still tend to disbelieve "then" is so radically different from "now". Availability-accessability is likely different but I am confidant there were the identical self-stimulators, blowhards and looneys and always shall be such. Without a depthful foundation-study how do I absorb anything deeply enough? I get lots of variances, nuances and subtleties bouncing around to different arts but no bone-fide depth. 12 ways to throw that single punch but insufficent understanding why its done that way. WHY is always important...

Dig one hole deeply not ten shallow
Jeff

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#291022 - 10/05/06 07:35 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ronin1966]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Of course perhaps the biggest difference for our modern world is one of function,

im suspecting that generally the martial arts were of far more pratical definition years gone by.....very serious business,

im also fairly convinced that a weapon would have been the first choice in a ruck.........

World of difference from training twice a week to win the touney aint it! O rperhaps dropping the kids of a the dojo whilst Mum shops................

LOL
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#291023 - 10/06/06 01:13 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree totally though purely competitive American Master Chuck Norris stated the same thing, he notes that is why his Tang-soo-do system was improved (competition wise) because he burrowed Japanese/Okinawan hands and Judo in his self defense.

I've always wondered how a system that started from a mix could be pure. But I will say that a foundation needs to be formed before cross training or you will miss alot of fine points, the foundation should be 3rd kyu or Shodan imho.
Then return to your base or continue to build upon it.

Great post. Question who sold that idea? Loyalty to one system. The Instructors coming over? or Teachers of Okinawa? or the Businessmen of USA and Aboard?
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DBAckerson

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#291024 - 10/06/06 02:43 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Neko456]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Neko,

I would go a bit further than sho-dan, at least time wise (say 8-10 years, IMO, would give a good base). And I'll also add a few other observations.

One, that some folk will be satisified within a McDojo and as long as they are happy and content with what they have, no problem. Some folk like artificial pancake syrup and detest maple syrup..partly because of lack of exposure which may be due to their systems being cloistered in an environment protecting it from exposure to the outside. Insular groups exist. Some for their own protection against peeking eyes and change, others because they are afraid to show less than skillful use of their style in a comparative (not necessarily competitive) arena. But in any case, the final choice has to be an individual one to take on other extracurricular studies.

As far as competent instruction, this is harder. All of us here seem to think we have effective studies in a syle that offers more than mediocre utility, but one cannot gauge how others train unless you actually go there and see for yourself, or if looking from afar, contains technical understanding which seems to be on a par with what you expect from competent instruction. This competent instruction, btw, should not be cowed by any other instruction that is offered elsewhere. What hopefully happens is that other training brings a renewed interest in what has already been presented...and again this all goes back to good, fundamental teaching in a core style.

Beyond this, I have always noted that there is a slight nod and wink when one goes out to take in other styles, like visiting restaurants with different cuisines. But there is always a slight bit of disapproval if you are vested in a place that specializes, say, in Italian food, and you go out to try the lasagna elsewhere...but no real problem with trying the Mexican place down the street.

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#291025 - 10/06/06 03:24 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I think when karate started being spread worldwide, the intentions were good to encourage proficiency by suggesting to stay with one Art...at least during initial training to define a base.

what I was calling attention to, was places that forbid or looked-down-upon exploration to other arts later in their study (ie: advanced students wishing to better understand their own) concurrent to advanced training in their base art.

I'm not talking about the phenomenon of students aimlessly 'dojo hoping', or someone always looking for something better than the last. I'm not even referring to people who mix and patch a bunch of things to create their own frankenstein-ryu.

I'm talking about meeting up and training with a dojo/person of a different Art and talk/show/train the differences and share observations in order to gain an alternate perspective of your base art. we don't know what insight it will gain, if any...so there is no predefined goal...just see what you see.

and yes, I do think adversity to that way of thinking started when teachers were worried about student retention for whatever reasons.

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#291026 - 10/06/06 03:52 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
'Advanced' student is still a student...still learning a particular system. Do you mean, when one is proficient in a system to be able to teach it (what is that...3rd or 4th dan?), but still a 'student' of the art?

Quote:

what I was calling attention to, was places that forbid or looked-down-upon exploration to other arts later in their study (ie: advanced students wishing to better understand their own) concurrent to advanced training in their base art.




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#291027 - 10/06/06 03:57 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
One of the things I have not touched on yet is the idea of the dojo as a community. In my mind my training is not just about what I want. Part of the committment to a dojo is learning to work through the relationships that are uncomfortable or problematic. In terms of growing the whole person I think staying in a situation gives us the opportunity to work out or problems with others and ourselves. Personal change if if is going to happen takes time and the opportunity to reflect. This can be done in a succession of schools or in one. Often times people leave a dojo or style only to have the same problems at the next not realising thay they are part of the problem. That is one benefit and perhaps one reason some teachers encourage remaining rather than leaving.

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#291028 - 10/06/06 06:53 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thats a good point...whats 'advanced'? it may be a personal definition and based partly on what type of initial training they receive. but I think roughly a guideline is perhaps about 10 years of part-time study...whatever rank that translates into.

oldman, also a good point...I don't teach, so I guess I was being a bit selfish in my thinking and looking at it from purely a student's POV.

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#291029 - 10/06/06 06:58 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Interesting point. I was only thinking from the student end...of what 'I' might get. But on the other hand, at some point, one 'becomes' a representative of a teacher and an art. A walking example of a ryu. To train in other styles is also to represent that accumulated knowledge and competancy to others.

I wonder: what is the motive on the other end? Of styles that are eager to take on new students?

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#291030 - 10/06/06 07:01 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I think you said the answer to that yourself...a teacher is often judged by the quality of their students.

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#291031 - 10/06/06 08:38 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
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Most "legit" styles do have a definition of what an advanced practitioner is, and time in art is not at the top. Rank and skill are different. There are people senior to me in rank and time of study who are not as advanced as me, and I assume there are those who are my junior who are more advanced than me. In my style of Matsubayshi I believe that truly advanced training starts when the fixed sparring or yakasuko kumite are expanded upon by the student in a free flowing manner with many of the grappling apps in karate. This is the bridge to developing advanced kata application. This is also when many of the underlying principles are really explored by a student and the time in which he begins to free himself from the confines of his kata. In karate that is the ultimate goal. To find freedom within kata, not outside. And that is exactly the reason why cross training is not good for those who are not ready. When people replace karate techs with stuff not to expand upon what is known, but because they want to fix what is not broken or believe they have to go outside for things they do not believe is contained in karate it will be difficult for them to achieve that which is advanced.

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#291032 - 10/06/06 09:16 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
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Loc: Salem, OR
Look at the combinations forming okinawan karate: dozens of chinese systems, okinawan wrestling, jujutsu, etc. There's no pure system, that's almost impossible to have. EVERY old master learned form multiple sources.
Cross training is unavoidable and why not, it makes you better.
Why do people get weird with this?
_________________________
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#291033 - 10/06/06 10:27 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I agree with you, but I think you are missing a piece.

sometimes things don't become self-apparent unless looked at from an alternate angle. you can look at something for too long and still not realize it.

same with physical knowledge. you can practice something for too long and not 'realize' it (meaning not physically realize the underlaying principles).

for instance, the deeper meaning of 'kime' would never have come to me on my own in quite the same way if I had never had the shukokai training that I did....it improved my goju (or what I thought to be goju at the time).

the reason why no style is an island is not because of inherent flaws in the system....but because of everyone's differing way of really learning particular deeper aspects of it.

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#291034 - 10/06/06 11:55 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
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Yes, but who combined all of these systems. Not Grandmaster Sensei Joe Schmo down the street. The "legit" systems were created by exceedingly talented marital artists in ingenious ways. Who said there was a pure system, in fact I don't know if that exists. Okay, maybe Okinawan karate is pure, a way to purely whoop someone's a_s about 150 different ways. Cross training makes some people better, but it destroys the karate of others. Some people learn SOME karate, then learn boxing, and add it to their karate and call it karate still, but their hand work is that of boxing and not karate. They believe they are using karate methods, but they are not and they are passing what they created on as karate. Then you have a generation of misinformed individuals. However, if that person took the time to develop a solid understanding of his karate in the first place and then studied boxing he could enhance his knowledge of the principles of karate with his knowledge of the principles of boxing.

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#291035 - 10/06/06 11:58 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Okay, but the reason why you needed the Shukokai training was because your goju was incomplete. Would you need it if you were working with your current teacher from day one?

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#291036 - 10/07/06 12:02 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
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Get weird? Oh, I love it when karate guys think they found the holy grail and come back to show me. The weird part is when my fist has to be surgically removed from in between their ribs because they didn't quite know how to put things together the way they thought they did. And I'm really not that good.

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#291037 - 10/07/06 08:00 AM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Posts: 6772
btw...the shukokai training was by circumstance and not sought (our dojo blending into Shito-ryu practice when there was a change of sensei). Kimura sensei adapted what he taught into our Goju curriculum. It was Shito ryu with a heavy lean towards it's nahate but with the emphasis of kimuras unique way of teaching and training body mechanics.

anyway,
I understand what you are saying, but thats not realistic to expect to learn all there is drawing from one point of view, med. Even people who were trained by Miyagi himself, saw goju in a different and deeper light by looking at HIS teacher's influences...which are differing Chinese systems....and Miyagi did the same. not because their instruction was lacking, but perhaps because things don't always become apparent unless you get a diferent point of view. -and everyone is diferent.

I don't mean to go off on a tangent, but a great historical 'cross-trainer' is Leonardo DaVinci. granted, a much different Art, but the process seems similar. He built better war machines and painted with more realism by his study of human anatomy, for instance. doesn't mean his initial painting instruction was lacking.

another example: If a Karate instructor has a Ph.D in anatomy, will he be able to fully impart the connection of karate to it? or wouldn't the student gain some more insight to those connections by a concurrent study of anatomy?

my instructor can mention the connection of Goju to other Arts...but does that mean I necessarily physically understand all of those connections built-in to one system? personally, I don't believe so. That doesn't mean the style, system or teacher is lacking - it is what it is and it's up to me to physically make those connections.

not to mention, that 'styles' aren't only physical realization. Nagamine studied deep into Zen and it's philosophical connection to Karate...that 'state of mind' affects action. That is just as much a part of his Matsubayashi as the physical influences he received from his various instructors....is that 'state of mind' always imparted during Matsubayashi instruction at the same level of depth? or would it be a deeper study for the student to 'cross-train' in meditative practice?

besides all of these points, I think in any system, the wider truth lies outside of it's boundries....and nobody can teach it all. what I'm saying in this thread is that there were not always these boundries to even consider or restrict prior to karate's formation of 'systems'.

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#291038 - 10/07/06 01:19 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes, but all these things are good to study to gain a better better insight into karate, but at the right time. All I have ever been saying is that cross training is good, but to gain a better insight into your karate. However, there is a time and a place for it. In okinawa you would study with one teacher then move on. Or your own teacher would send you to another to fill in the gaps of what you did not know. Or your teacher would die and you would seek to deepen your understanding. Is this the way it is done here, no. People say, why doesn't karate have this or that. Then they go to learn a style that does and say that it is better without truly learning what they were initially studying. Then they come back to enlighten their karate bretheren. Basically they get into a habit of learning everything half a_sed and would have benefited more from getting a solid base in their core style. Once that base is developed they should go and seek out other ways of seeing things. The bottom line is if your are below the yudansha level and have time to "cross train" then you weren't training your karate hard enough in the first place. If you cross train before the Sandan level and don't go back to deepen your understanding and "properly" integrate your new knowledge into your karate knowledge then 9 times out of 10 you won't be able to properly blend your new knowledge into your old. You will just be doing two different arts, and thats okay. But if you have the proper base in your style then there is nothing wrong with it and more power to you. Hell, I have been known to roll BJJ and step into the cage every now and then. But I'm somewhat Sadomasochistic anyway.

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#291039 - 10/12/06 02:59 PM Re: Cross-training ...the way Karate used to be. [Re: medulanet]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Thats one point of view, you did say you wrestled early on and obviously retained that skill. Thats called cross training. Thats basically what I've done is I teach a Trad art but as they advance, they need to know variations of how other systems work and move. Karate is not a catch all.

As for your Karate not being trained right if or because you seek to study other arts. I think thats bolongey, Karate is not a catch all it is a effective method of defense. But the more you experince you have, the more you understand. I've worked with and sparred in a lot system from Boxing to Kuntoua each had something to teach and share. Each seem to have its perferred range and techniques it thought most effective, within its limits. Karate has its perferred range, TKD and Thai Boxing has their's, JJ and Silat do to, and BJJ or wrestlers have a certain perferred range.

There is no Perfect fighting system just as there is no perfect Karate (No matter what some people say or think, now this is just mho). The practictioner has to make his art, it does not make him, and if he is honest he can be his worst enemy because you know your own weakness and if you don't you haven't been up against the right competition. Some people throw names of Famous Sensei/Sifu/Gurus/Professors but no matter how great your teacher if YOU don't study hard you will never be any good
at your art. The real meaning of Kung-fu inspires me here, it ain't really about fighting its working hard to excel at anything that you do.


Edited by Neko456 (10/12/06 03:01 PM)
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