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#290646 - 07/20/07 11:04 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: wristtwister]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
Three more off of Grady's:

1. All bunkai must snatch the situation's intiative away from the bad guy and give it to you. You might snatch it at the very beginning (pre-emptive) or upon the first offensive movement of attack. BUT your bunkai MUST give the intiative to you.

2. Once you have snatched the initiative - your bunkai must KEEP it until the attacker is neutralized.

3. Never design (or accept) a bunkai that requires the attacker to make more than the first, single, specific movement. Good bunkai should not address situations like, "First he pushes me, then he grabs my lapel, then he slaps me twice, then he punches me". Bunkai should start at the very first reach toward you, take the initiative and neutralize the guy.

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#290647 - 06/28/08 03:24 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: Joss]
AEF Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 8
Hmmm... Some things I have been thinking about, and I would like to hear opinions about.

1.- about directions:
- when you go forward in kata, your bunkai is offensive
- when you go backward in kata, your bunkai is defensive
- when you turn either left or right in kata, it means you flank your opponent (sabaki) and attack his side.

2.- Both offensive and defensive bunkai have the same goal: to end the fight as fast as possible.

3.- Bunkai is usually part of a sequence of techniques. A sequence of techniques is usually a group of techniques performed consecutively in the same direction. A group of sequences of techniques is a kata.

4.- A sequence of techniques teaches strategy. An isolated technique (or bunkai) teaches tactics. A group of strategies is a fighting style.

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#290648 - 06/28/08 03:40 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: AEF]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Those are all pretty good, except I don't agree that turning right or left implies anything that specific, tai sabaki is already shown in the techniques, the embusen isn't neccessary to show you tai sabaki. There was an embusen thread on this subject for a while in the forms and application forum.

My teacher wrote this book on the subject along with Lawrence kane: I've personally found it to be a good read, but I suppose i'm biased heh.

http://books.google.com/books?id=KwjtqbX...1&ct=result

See what you think of the sample pages.

It goes into detail on the rules of kasai, and how they work, the rules of kasai are also mentioned in Toguchi's book Okinawan Goju Ryu Vol 2:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zfFaPBl...OU3xjPHUQ#PPA49,M1

There's a bit there on the rules of Kasai, unfortunately it only displays part of that section.

Also, i know it's generally accepted that forward=offense and backwards-defense, but I often wonder how this plays out on anyhting but a basic level. Really we should rarely be doing anything that's "defensive" in the sense of walking backwards while performing purely defensive movements it seems to me, so I often wonder about this rule.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/28/08 03:53 AM)

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#290649 - 06/29/08 08:34 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: Zach_Zinn]
AEF Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 8
Quote:

Those are all pretty good, except I don't agree that turning right or left implies anything that specific, tai sabaki is already shown in the techniques, the embusen isn't neccessary to show you tai sabaki.




I read the book. On page 111 it examines the beginning of gekisai dai ichi, and it says that stepping forward in a angle and turning left is not to defend against a flank attack, but to get out of the way of the attacker, so you flank him and attack from his side. This same principle is also explained by Kenwa Mabuni. Check "Wisdom from the Past: Tidbits on Kata Applications from Pre-War Karate Books. Part One" By Joe Swift, at:
http://seinenkai.com

You can compare the beginning of gekisai dai ichi and the beginning of fukyugata dai ichi, since both kata were done at the same time as a coordinated effort. Nagamine sensei created fukyugata dai ichi, and Miyagi sensei created gekisai dai ichi (which was then called fukyugata dai ni). In fukyugata dai ichi, you turn left into hidari zenkutsu dachi and perform hidari gedan barai uke. So you twist your body as in a late reaction. In gekisai dai ichi, you step forward in an angle and turn left, so you do your sabaki to anticipate your opponent's strike, so it is a preemptive strike.

The sabaki part is secondary. I think it was my mistake to mention it. The point is that turning to the sides usually implies you attack your enemy's flank.

Quote:

Also, i know it's generally accepted that forward=offense and backwards-defense, but I often wonder how this plays out on anyhting but a basic level. Really we should rarely be doing anything that's "defensive" in the sense of walking backwards while performing purely defensive movements it seems to me, so I often wonder about this rule.




Well, that principle is the second of the shuyo san gensoko (p. 112-13), and the point is that techniques in advanced karate are not purely defensive or purely offensive, but both. That is the second rule in my previous post: "2.- Both offensive and defensive bunkai have the same goal: to end the fight as fast as possible.", which means that the purpose of your defensive techniques is to end the fight.

Being a defensive fighter I learned to love this principle, at least in dojo randori or irikumi. However, in a fight to defend my life, I know I would have to go forward relentlessly to incapacitate my opponent before he has time to think, strike or get ready. If possible, of course.

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#424508 - 01/22/10 12:12 PM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: AEF]
oldronin Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/22/10
Posts: 1
good day all.

I don't think that kata bunkai is meant to represent the literal techniques of any of the movement that we see. To me (IMHO) kata should represent a summary of the techniques we should already know. Anyone that learns from me will know the techniques before the kata is taught. That way the kata is not "empty".

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#424944 - 02/13/10 08:21 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: oldronin]
paul40 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 155
unsu ['unshu'] is a shito-ryu kata, another kata changed by funakoshi for japanese consumption..
dont know the kata myself.. for shotokan check out nakayama or his top
student kanazawa..
the bunkai shown at tournaments is only one oyoshimasu and may not be what you would think of as the 'main' or best'
appplication.. still, showing the mind a real use, will, result in a different and better appreciation for the waza and for
'everything' related to training the kata and karate itself.. bear in mind tho that what is demonstrated for tournaments
by shotokan will not be the most realistic meaning.. eg the first strike in unshu after the ko uke is aippon nukite 'one finger
penetrating hand' shown in the kata striking about lower rib level.. someone who has really trained real karate for decades
including serious conditioning may be able to use one finger to the ribs for some effect, but a student today trying to strike
fast [as shown] to hard body targets will most likely damage their finger..
to me a realistic meaning would be the ko uke followed by pulling back that hand - to show controlling him and his momentum
coming toward your throat by pulling pack with his movement, thus drawing him forward and slightly off balance which,
will cause him to raise his head, now at lower level, for the following nukite to his eye orbit or exposed carotid artery..
real karate is not for playing games.. these waza are not for casual use.. thus funakoshi etc changed the meanings

another meaning you might like to and go thru , might be response to being grabbed by the wrist
response being to bend the wrist strongly as you raise it [with his arm] with good tension, then immediately draw the captured
hand down and in [escaping between his thumb and index finger], which is also shown in the shito ryu original kata with its
obvious pulling back after the ko type opening uke.. dont quote me but it is probably 'keito' or 'chicken head wrist'..
[in goju 'kakato' or shortened to 'ko' uke woiuld probably be used in that example]
goju kata 'shisochin' starts with a more or less similar waza and movement, with the nekoashi position in unshu 'hidden'
within the step to sanchin dachi, and with the same 'shuto' hand form [with subtle differences] for the double uke
followed by pull back and strike with nukite, also, shown to about ribs level.. [in my shodan grading i was the first asked to
show that bunkai and its oyoshimasu, with daisensei standing and a grading panel at the table and all the shodan canditates
and sundry sensei skulling about watching, including my sensei..
well, i thought [rude word] this, must not let sensei down here, i'll show the real meaning..
so [he attacks with a good solid strike to about throat level, theres another clue, i step aside a little, off his center,
parrying his strike and maintaining contact, letting go a good fast nukite right into his carotid artery between oesophagus
and muscle etc.. showing, of course, full control.. silence..


Edited by paul40 (02/13/10 08:23 AM)
_________________________
Just so you know, I am a liar. only fair to tell you before you waste time reading my words.

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#427549 - 06/05/10 05:12 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: medulanet]
John Steczko Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/05/10
Posts: 4
I think the most important Bunkai rule is to know as many applications as possible and be able to do them.

If you train a kata and you don't know what you are doing, then you're wasting your time. The kata must become reality.

You must know that every little step/attack/block can be done in many different ways, in different directions.

One of the best karate teachers I met said once to me "You know a kata when you know at least 1000 applications to every step in the kata". Perhaps "1000" is too much but I understand his point. In bunkai one movement can be done in many ways.
_________________________
Greetings

John Steczko

http://karatesoul.com

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#427561 - 06/07/10 02:54 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: John Steczko]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
If you have 1000 applications to every move in kata, you are making up about 995 of them.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#427562 - 06/07/10 04:35 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: BrianS]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: BrianS
If you have 1000 applications to every move in kata, you are making up about 995 of them.

Or you haven't got a clue about variation...
_________________________
Ives

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#427574 - 06/08/10 08:50 PM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: Ives]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ives:

How do you explain the concept of variation IYV?

Are you talking about different expressions of the kata itself? Meaning that I REALLY emphasize (melodramaticly)the double punch presentation, or that those two arms can be used a lot of different ways yet still maintain the structure and mechanics of the movement shown?

What does your term variation mean please...?

Jeff

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