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#290596 - 10/04/06 10:55 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: eyrie]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Eyrie,
This illustration shows a bit of what you are reffering too. It builds off the spear hand and then locks the wrist and uses the turn for a throw. Going back to the idea of movement... I don't think it is so much that arts should not be stagnant but more that people should not be. At some stages of development people are very concrete and it is appropriate. When they begin to see grays instead of blacks and whites the are becoming more able to think abstractly. I think part of the challenge of teaching the whole individual is helping to usher them into a greater ability for abstraction and flexibility in thinking. Part of the task is biological and part is cognative. When the brain is ready the teacher and the techniques appear.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Other principles...

Hard weapon, soft target. Hard weapon soft target.

Blocks can lock.

Turns to throw.

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#290597 - 10/04/06 10:58 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: student_of_life]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Since you replied to me, I'll answer the question....

I don't do karate... I did some a long time ago with Patrick McCarthy - and some Shorinji Kempo - enough to grasp the general principles and similarities of what is essentially a simple (yet complex), but brutally effective system. Different flavours of karate I would put down as stylistic or philosophical differences.

So the answer to your question is... NO. You're not going to see any effective bunkai from me, any time soon....

I'm only posing the question here for discussion. Maybe someone will have an epiphany, maybe not. In any case, the general principles are similar in every other art - lines, angles, foot/body/hand positioning, using the weight to augment locks and throws, stepping to enter, using both hands to apply technique, hidden sweeps and throws in turns and pivots, hidden kicks, leverage, breaking balance, etc. etc. etc.

It's all in the basics.... hidden in plain sight as it were.... hopefully this thread might spur others to look deeper (beneath the surface) at their own practice, and apply some of the principles discussed in their own interpretation of kata.

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#290598 - 10/04/06 11:10 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: oldman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Eyrie,
This illustration shows a bit of what you are reffering too. It builds off the spear hand and then locks the wrist and uses the turn for a throw.





Nice. Looks like a variation of kote-gaeshi/irimi nage. I'm not too concerned about the "technical" name of the technique, but out of curiousity, which kata is this out of? The reason being, there are many techniques I may conjure up on the spur of the moment, depending on how uke is positioned rlative to me, and as long as I work the principles correctly, the technique always invariably manifests itself.

Quote:


Going back to the idea of movement... I don't think it is so much that arts should not be stagnant but more that people should not be. At some stages of development people are very concrete and it is appropriate. When they begin to see grays instead of blacks and whites the are becoming more able to think abstractly. I think part of the challenge of teaching the whole individual is helping to usher them into a greater ability for abstraction and flexibility in thinking. Part of the task is biological and part is cognative. When the brain is ready the teacher and the techniques appear.





Good point. The corollary to that being, not being fixated on fixed "forms" - a dis-ease all too common even in aikido circles. Unfortunately, forms provide the initiate with an initial learning structure or paradigm. It's knowing when to exit the form and enter the realm of "formless form" that delineates the initiate from the exponent. Shu-Ha-Ri....

Quote:


Other principles...

Hard weapon, soft target. Hard weapon soft target.

Blocks can lock.

Turns to throw.




I think the rules of atemi (as I've encountered in jujitsu and aikido) are the same... hard weapon, soft target. Soft weapon, hard target....

Blocks and punches can also be throws too....


Edited by eyrie (10/04/06 11:12 AM)

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#290599 - 10/04/06 11:27 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: eyrie]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Shu-Ha-Ri....




I think this principle is so important and most folks don't have an understanding of it. It gives a context or paradigm for personal growth that can happent in the arts. I sometimes fear that when people change arts too early or too frequently they miss out on some benefits of the process. On the other hand choosing a different art may represent a persons passing through Shu ha ri's various stages.

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#290600 - 10/04/06 11:39 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: eyrie]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
"I'm talking about general principles or rules of thumbs with which to understand how to break down kata, or how to apply kata movement to technical application."

There is some very useful ground covered regarding kata application by Iain Abernethy on his website, and by the book below.

"The Way of Kata: A Comprehensive Guide for Deciphering Martial Applications"

Just a few are:

Each technique should be able to stop the attack.

Each technique should be virtually fail-safe (not dependent on "fine" motor skills in high stress situations).

The techniques should NOT require a specific response to work (I do this. Now he does this and viola!).

Our chambered hands usually have some opponent's parts in them.

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#290601 - 10/04/06 12:01 PM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: Joss]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Great thread,thanks eyrie!

I like oldman's drawings.Notice how close the grappling range is? There's no giant spaces and multiple opponents in the right applications. Kata is not fighting several opponents who take turns attacking.

When doing locks and throws there is usually a strike beforehand. It's very difficult to go straight into a lock on a resisting person.
The technques are not failsafe(in my experience) and to try to force a technique would be a hard lesson learned.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#290602 - 10/04/06 12:34 PM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
All good points. And I forgot about the Iain Abernathy resource too... well there you go....

If you think that's close, wait till I show you some of the stuff I do with a jo...

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#290603 - 10/04/06 11:09 PM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Would someone like to store this thread for posterity? Make it a sticky or something?

I think it is useful for pointing people in the right direction in terms of WHAT to look for when analysing kata.

Great discussion folks (and drawings by Oldman!)...

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#290604 - 10/05/06 12:34 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: BrianS]
brocksampson Offline
Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 112
Loc: Savannah, GA
Brian, if I understand correctly, I think you and Joss are saying the same thing. A "virtually failsafe" technique would be using an elbow strike where an elbow strike is needed. Not looking for the hidden special magic ear lock! The "failsafe" technique should just work, period. As you said, you can't force it. If the appropriate technique happens to be an advanced break or trap then fine, but it HAS to work, without a lot of fuss.
_________________________
The more I learn, the more everything is the same.

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#290605 - 10/05/06 05:27 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: student_of_life]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
im on the case and will present Pinan Shodan Bunkai if thats of interest?
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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