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#290586 - 10/04/06 02:28 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: oldman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, Mark, that's the whole point of my asking the question... so that it may hopefully, be helpful to others. I ask, not for myself, since I have absolutely no interest in kata or bunkai what so ever. I'm merely curious about the knowledge and level of knowledge out there.

Personally, I think angles, range, foot/body/hand positions and purpose thereof are important elements or principles to consider.

As Ed said, if it is anything other than close-range/in-fighting, one should probably question the utility of such movement - although, it may in all likelihood be a valid counter, PROVIDED it is a prelude to or the follow up application results in a closing of the range.

I'm talking about general principles or rules of thumbs with which to understand how to break down kata, or how to apply kata movement to technical application. Yes, it's all movement, but these rules should be applicable to most armed and unarmed kata-based traditions, not just karate per se.

And of course, any movement can be used for anything, but you wouldn't use a screwdriver to hammer a nail, nor would you use a knife to open a can, unless you want to cut yourself open in the process.

So, other principles would include...?

How about movements where weight is dropped/sunk, or where movements are rising and floating?

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#290587 - 10/04/06 07:26 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

How about movements where weight is dropped/sunk, or where movements are rising and floating?



those, medulanet covered. (or if he didn't, he would have )

drop (as in dropping height from walking stance to horse stance) usually when throwing or taking to ground. also, unbalancing. dropping while already having someone in a precurious position, sometimes is indicative of a break. for what we do, usually means the neck.

sink (as in projecting mass down into target), for off-balancing and shock impact during strike. also sinking can be used to tighten a lock hold.

rising - bash threw into an attack. also, rising then dropping while turning and throwing (like a corkscrew into the ground)...and the throws aren't nice.

floating - anytime when you are using another force to counteract for stabilty - in aikido for instance, they use sophisticated methods of centrifigal force in 3-dimensions. similar thing, but less complex in what we do. but then you listen to wristtwister, and his karate likely has more utilization of this...depends what your art's influences are. I will say this, whatever art people do - drawing principles from other arts will likely awaken hidden principles that you didn't see before in your primary art of choice. ...plus it's more fun. screw tradition. lol Arts aren't meant to be stagnent...when they are, it becomes ritual.

anyone doing a kata-based system, trying to figure out application.... the answer is in Chinese arts, koryu Japanese arts, and non-sport grappling. If each application wouldn't seriously mess someone up, then keep working on it and keep looking.

stepping back, blocking and striking then resetting, is one-dimensional and completely misses the point of kata.

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#290588 - 10/04/06 08:50 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: medulanet]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Things are not (JUST) what they seem.




The opperative word being Just meaning not soley.

There are folks much more advanced than myself in the discussion. My comment are mostly to the folks that are being taught BLOCK... BLOCK... BLOCK...BLOCK...BLOCK....Punch. I say what I do so others can bein to see or imagine what is possible.

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#290589 - 10/04/06 08:54 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Okay try these. Attacks come from all angles, not just the front. To interpret kata look at attacks from different angles and see what you get. Stacked hands imply grappling such as keylocks. Crossed hands imply grappling. Elbow strikes are not always strikes. They can be interpretted as elbow spikes to enter the clinch range. Especially if preceded by a kick or a punch. Crossed legged stances such as kosa dachi implies a knee strike, kick, or tai sabaki, or all three.Many techniques in low stances such as horse stance or front stance are throwing techniques. Many turns in kata are throws or unbalancing techniques. The chambering hand should be holding or trapping something when it chambers. A step can be a kick with the shin to a downed opponent or a knee strike to the thigh. These are just a few and some of it depends on your particular style and kata.




Good stuff!!

Look at the blocks in the kata,the two way action specifically.One hand is pulling/trapping,the other hand is breaking/striking/throwing.
Each movement can have many offensive interpretations.
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#290590 - 10/04/06 09:21 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: BrianS]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

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#290591 - 10/04/06 09:39 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: eyrie]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Eyrie,
Lets look at this example. The usual explaination you see for it is sweeping a punch across your body and striking to the solar plexus with a spear hand. I don't know about Y'all but I'm not sure I could drop anyone let alone a conditioned athelete with a spear hand to their wash board abs. On the other hand I'm pretty sure that I can get to the cleft in the throat just above the clavicle, straighten my arm putting my girth behind it. GEEERK!!! that hurts like a MUG. That approach my give me time to get the heck out of Dodge or call in the calvary or perhaps a little GandP.
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

So there is a principle I guess. Greateast force to the weakest target.

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#290592 - 10/04/06 09:43 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: eyrie]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Eyrie:

<<what rules of thumb do people use when evaluating or analysing bunkai.

My very first rule of thumb... avoid the foreign terminology (ie bunkai)!

Ok, ok, when looking at someones application sequence, is it simple period?

5, 6, (or more) movements to stop an incoming attacker is either a severely advanced application or 2-3 movements too blessed long! I should not need to hit them 8 times to stop them... Not talking about the one punch kill foolishness, merely being pragmatic.

In terms keeping simplicity my hands should not change grips a lot...

I should not need to kick the attacker more than twice...

The basic application should acknowledge the "sleeping appentage" (the hands/feet not attacking) as a viable threat. How the first hand/foot is handled should largely negate the other appendage entering the equasion effectively

There are lots and lots these help?

Jeff

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#290593 - 10/04/06 10:06 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


floating - anytime when you are using another force to counteract for stabilty - in aikido for instance, they use sophisticated methods of centrifigal force in 3-dimensions. similar thing, but less complex in what we do. but then you listen to wristtwister, and his karate likely has more utilization of this...depends what your art's influences are. I will say this, whatever art people do - drawing principles from other arts will likely awaken hidden principles that you didn't see before in your primary art of choice. ...plus it's more fun. screw tradition. lol Arts aren't meant to be stagnent...when they are, it becomes ritual.





Great post! My emphasis added. All martial arts are based around the same principles - if not similar. Any differences are largely stylistic variations or differences in philosophy.

I just wanted to add that there are many subtleties in throwing arts that you aren't likely to experience in ritualized training methods - even within throwing arts that use some form of paired kata-based training methods.

I'm not so sure that centrifugal force is really all that involved in what we do... I might have thought that at one stage, but I see more and more of what we (I?) do, as simple linear forces, perhaps using rotational torque to augment linear forces.

Whilst I've found karate techniques "simple", but brutally effective, (whilst training with Patrick McCarthy) many of the techniques are very similar, if not virtually identical to what I've experienced in jujitsu and aikido.

Quite often, something will present itself from time to time, and I "see" karate techniques appear in many aikido techniques.

Quote:


stepping back, blocking and striking then resetting, is one-dimensional and completely misses the point of kata.




Perhaps a necessary evil when first learning, but it is important to look beyond. Omote vs Ura.

BTW, Mark, great visual descriptions. The second sequence is EXACTLY how it's done in jujitsu - perhaps also from a front double handed choke (why anyone would dumb enough to do that... who knows). And the spear hand can also be a press to the sternal notch. The first sequence I've seen many other variations based on similar movements.

My point being, many arts share common techniques and/or technical applications. So why should kata be any different?

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#290594 - 10/04/06 10:41 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: oldman]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
never stop drawing oldman, and i love the little extras like plumber but on your attackers, your illustrations have always made my day!

any hints on where i could get my hands, or eyes on some more of your work?
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#290595 - 10/04/06 10:42 AM Re: Rules of Bunkai [Re: eyrie]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
is anyone willing to man up and post some vids of what your ideas of solid bunkai wold look like??

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