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#29044 - 05/31/04 08:08 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
Why John, I sound like a street guy and a sport guy [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#29045 - 05/31/04 08:18 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
John who dominates the Muay Thai circut? who dominates K1 max? who dominates the world in standup fighting arts? are these then not proven "greatest" fighters? are you blind? is old age getting to your sight [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] thats proof enough. Just like the cubans and mexicans in Boxing.
[/QUOTE]

That’s just it Muay Thai…I’m not talking about simple “stand-up” fighting. That’s only ONE aspect of what is empty hand fighting. If it doesn’t include wrestling, etc., it’s not the complete picture.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
Even now some, god forbid, dare I even say it, "Thais" are holding world Boxing titles... of course at lower wieght divisions, the Mexicans and Cubans dominate the boxing circut.... Cro-Cop is an outstanding kicker, I know, his left high round house is a killer but dude... in my opinion... the guy is good but to be honest I have witnessed with my own eyes better fighters who are apparently "inexperienced" than any I have witness on the MMA fights I have watched, and I have watched a few, I am beginning to like it but in no way does it compare (in my opinion) to the excitment and pace of a Muay Thai fight - and thats my taste, yours may differ coming from a grappling background. [/QUOTE]

That’s all well and good man, but when you speak of the “greatest fighters”, you HAVE to speak in terms of MMA fighters because, as I mentioned earlier, everything else is just one specific facet of empty hand fighting. You simply MUST include every game in order to be considered the ‘best’ fighter.

You can be the worlds “best” boxer, kickboxer, wrestler, judo player, Brazilian jiu-jitsu grappler, etc. But until you put it ALL together in vale tudo, should you be considered the “world’s best FIGHTER”.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
Pol Prapradang - the Wild Boar, 350 fights never being knocked down once! is that just coincidence or did he just fight weaker opponents all the time?
[/QUOTE]

Probably. I can’t say for sure until he steps up and fights against today’s established fighters, instead of unknown people who ALSO haven’t had their credibility established. Have him go to MMA and lets see how he does. That would be interesting to see, don’t you think?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

…. the fact is, when fighting is concerned the Thai people excell at it
[/QUOTE]

A thundering HERD of people excel at fighting Muay Thai --- and not just those from your fabled THAILAND

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

.... they don’t fight in UFC, I can tell you this now, they simply don’t care and its not talk, trust me on that, take a plane over there and SEE for yourself even test it out - take some students with you and maybe try it out there. I ain’t trying to blow any trumpets here so I don’t know why you are attacking me with your little comments which tell me you're getting annoyed [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Annoyed?? HELL NO! I love this man, I’m a FIGHTER for crying out loud, are you KIDDING ME?!! I love arguing second only to taking a striker off his feet and pounding his ass!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Is it hard to understand that maybe some people, fighters included, simply find UFC boring?
[/QUOTE]

Again, that’s fine. How many times must I have to continuously reiterate the fact that I have NOTHING against these fighters that you speak of? It’s only people like yourself who make claims about how these guys would just “blow away” the competition at the UFC, that I have a problem with. These claims COMPLETELY disrespect the fighters who HAVE stepped up and proven to the world who they are and what they’ve got. Until ANYONE bothers to come into the UFC or Pride, and fight, will they have any credibility in my eyes as being among the worlds best at fighting.

Surely now after what, 48 UFC events (not including Pride, IVC, KOTC and others), you’d have thought that just ONE Thai would come in and clean up!!!! For crying out loud man, how many Thais ARE there in this world? Just ONE is all it takes.
So far, no good. I would go on to say that, we all shouldn’t hold our collective breaths.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Ramon Dekker, an excellent fighter with 200+ fights who smashed his ankle rendering it useless, he came back from his injury knowing he couldnt use his leg again so kicked with the other, one leg, he went on to win - have you ever seen this man fight?
[/QUOTE]

And WHO is he again???? I’m not familiar with that name. Maybe that’s because he doesn’t FIGHT anywhere I pay attention to. Maybe that’s because all he does is fight muay Thai? Sorry, I’m not interested in pure muay Thai fighting. When he comes to MMA, I’ll pay attention. Does he have any plans of doing so? If not, OH WELL!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

He was aksed why doesnt he start fighting MMA, he said that he finds it boring, he likes to stand and fight... I dont think there is fear there and I dont think any of these fighter would enter the MMA arena without having cross trained. I dont know why the hell you keep saying "then why dont they stand up", ask yourself this, would you enter a Muay Thai arena and fight? if not then why? probably because you are not interested in it, this is not self defense and its not a "this is better than yours" bullshit, they do it because they love what it is they do. Its their choice and I doubt they are going to simply jump arenas simply to prove to the world that they are great fighters when they are already doing this where they are.
[/QUOTE]

I would fight muay Thai if that’s what I trained for. Why not? But that isn’t what I train for. I train vale tudo. Also, it isn’t my intention to fight professionally. I have several reasons for this; 1) I’m 39 and have too many injuries. 2) I have a 10 year-old son and other responsibilities (job, etc).

However, this isn’t about MY claims that I’m among the world’s greatest fighters. That’s not EVEN close to being the case. This is about your incessant chatter about how the Thai’s are the worlds greatest living fighters. And, it’s about how I say BULLSHOT to that, until they bother to step up into the world of MMA. I don’t give a flying RATS ass if they find it “boring” or NOT. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] Dig?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Now this isnt an arguemnt about MMA and Stand up these are comments on whom I believe to be great fighters. I am convinced once you actually witness these fighters i talk of actually fighting then your opinions may change. Why dont the mixed martial art guys take their skills to S.E.Asia and pit them against them, they do dont they? do they dominate? no they dont.
[/QUOTE]

Muay Thai, when’s the last time that a MMA event has occurred in SE Asia? Hmm? Answer: There’s NOT been one that has offered these fighters anything that the UFC or Pride couldn’t offer. The worlds best come to THEM (UFC/Pride), not the other way around, dig? Get your fighters to do the same thing, or again, it’s just another excuse.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Ok ground grappling is an aspect but dont you think when you take a fighter of such experience and train the man to be ready for a Mixed Martial Art event he wont make a mark?
[/QUOTE]

Sure! Anything is possible. Of course you can do it. But I doubt that they’d be anywhere near ready. The guys in these events have been wrestling since they were 4 or 5 years old. There simply no WAY that you can take someone in 6 months or a year and have them ready for such an event.

But, if you started them young and gave them a few years doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu, etc., they could be ready to step up.
Just none of them have. And again….until……they……do…..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

C'mon john, I think you can agree, you know and I know that anyone with an impressive (200+) fight record in a full contact fighting art (which doesnt allow ground grappling) when he's trained in ground grappling do you think he will suddenly forget his skills? or loose his experience and edge that made him such a great fighter in the first place.
[/QUOTE]

No, I think he’ll be a formidable force to reckon with, depending of course on how good his skills on the mat are.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Give credit to the little jungle boys...
[/QUOTE]

I’ll give them credit when they EARN their credit. Until I see them fight in MMA, that isn’t likely to happen. I’ve seen Thai boxers go down to guys who did nothing but BOX with them in MMA fights. So far, I’m not that impressed. That isn’t to say that the guys they fought were among the worlds best, but neither were the guys who defeated them.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

I suppose its just you not agreeing and the refusal to accept that there are many many people who finbd UFC boring.
[/QUOTE]

No. It has ZERO to do with the notion that they find it boring. What it has to do with is the fact that I simply do NOT consider a person to be among the worlds greatest fighters, if they only fight within a single aspect of what is empty hand fighting. Whether it be boxing, Thai boxing, wrestling, jiu-jitsu, sombo, catchascatchcan, or anything else --- if it’s just a sliver of the whole picture of what is, one-on-one, empty hand fighting, it’s second tier. That’s MY “opinion”.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

again I apologise but its the way I feel about it and what you see as a great fighter and what I see as a great fighter are apparently two completely different things but what does matter is that we both know how to go about getting great fighters.
[/QUOTE]

No need to apologize mate. Those are your opinions and I’m giving you mine.


Take care,

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-31-2004).]

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#29046 - 06/01/04 01:23 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Anonymous
Unregistered


a boxer can not hit you if you stay a arms lenghts away let them throw a few and then shoot in close they can not fight when there arms are pinned which is easy to do if you are a good fighter they have no chance on the ground and if you break a boxers arm they are sitting ducks which all good MA should know how to do

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#29047 - 06/01/04 04:48 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Again, that’s fine. How many times must I have to continuously reiterate the fact that I have NOTHING against these fighters that you speak of? It’s only people like yourself who make claims about how these guys would just “blow away” the competition at the UFC, that I have a problem with. These claims COMPLETELY disrespect the fighters who HAVE stepped up and proven to the world who they are and what they’ve got. Until ANYONE bothers to come into the UFC or Pride, and fight, will they have any credibility in my eyes as being among the worlds best at fighting.
[/QUOTE]

Hold the f**k up here John, I aint saying these guys would blow anyone away in UFC. ok.

Fabled Thailand? have you ever been there? do you really know what the f**k you are talking about? Who gives a flying shit about UFC and Mixed Martial Arts? I dont!!! Stop being so friggen protective of UFC J, you are like a big child refusing to believe some people dont like UFC and Mixed Martial Arts..... dont start the "its the whole game" bullshit, dude I couldnt care less, I only know a little ground fighting "Naban", mate I am 28 and I have never fought nor do I see myself fighting on the ground EVER! so then why the hell should I worry about such things. hmm... maybe these other fighters kinda think the same John. You will say "then I will pay for it" bla bla bla.... No I wont John because I simply dont walk around looking for fights and the place I like to compete is in Muay Thai because I like to fight not wrestle. Is it still hard to understand? or are you getting it now [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

You're pissing me off J, I mean its no good sitting here being pissed off but dude you gotta stop bullshitting about "game" and UFC as the best arena for fighting. Who gives a flying shite? You obviously have never even been to Thailand and you OBVIOUSLY have never seen much fights outside of UFC or other arenas similar to UFC, I am telling to please shut the f**k up.

"...These claims COMPLETELY disrespect the fighters who HAVE stepped up and proven to the world who they are and what they’ve got..."

what a lot of shite, so how many exactly of these fighters have actually fought outside of UFC and if they have where exactly did they fight. A fighter will train in whichever techniques are need to win a fight, the greater the fighter the better the mind to use these techniques....


....so whats the arguement again?

The thing is John, and this is something you obviously dont seem to fathom, a fighter is a fighter no matter what he is trained in, it doesnt matter if its grappling or purely standup.... dont you get it? can you get it? I see a great fighter as a someone with a huge amount of experience and a great fight record and will to win.

Simple as that, its not hard learning how to grapple, I know I have been doing it, its not so f**king difficult john when you already know how to do it standing up. If he's a great fighter standing up and in clinch fighting they why do you think he would be crap on the ground?

By the way, that 350+ fight record with NO knockdowns IS impressive, John he is a great fighter. Muay Thai aint no easy arena to fight in, in fact in my opinion its tougher phyisically on the body and mind than Mixed Martial Arts... why? because you gotta fight and make hard contact all the time not just to get your opponent on the ground.... The death toll statistics and injury stats just tell you which arena is the most "dangerous" to fight in. Doesnt mean that UFC aint dangerous but when a man is given the choice to "tap" out, generally humans will when faced with agonising pain.

....so what were you saying again?

Credability in your eyes? UFC is a good place to fight and prove your ability in wrestling, ITS BORING TO WATCH!

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#29048 - 06/01/04 08:03 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
1st Round KO Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 1497
Loc: New York City, USA
John, have you forgotten about Maurice Smith, Muay Thai Champ turned UFC champ??? he is a shining example of a striker picking up the ground work and excelling, dominating.
i dont agree with you that a fighter MUST have grappling. groundwork is only 1 component of a total system and many if not the majority of UFC fighters have extremely weak stand up skills, hence they shoot to the ground ASAP. in practice, it is much easier for a strong grappler with weak stand up to shoot in and fight by his own terms against a strong striker with weak grappling. it is always easier to go to the ground, hence over 90% of street fights follow the same fate. this does not make him a better fighter but rather, it draws attention to the fact that he is not a complete fighter. a truly superior fighter would not have to execute such strategy and would be comfortable standing or grappling. whle there are a few such people in UFC and Pride, they are scarce.
no disrespect to UFC as i am a fan, but i also think UFC has bastardized martial arts to the extent that it focuses too highly on groundwork and allows substandard full system fighters to excel by shooting and going to the mat. this does not qualify them as being great fighters by any means but those ignorant of martial arts are lead to believe this to be the case.

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#29049 - 06/01/04 09:49 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
a little extract from some thought of MMA fighter travelling to Thailand to fight in Muay Chao Cherk.

"...To add to the pressure, just a day before the fights were to be held, the Thai commission said the US was not ready to face the Burmese fighters in a bare-knuckle event. A meeting was called with the mayor, promoter, and commission members to discuss the possibility of removing the American fighters from the card. In spite of this, one of the high-ranked officials in the Muay Thai judge and referee group spoke out in defense of the US team. He pointed out that the fighters were coming from Master Toddy’s gym, a highly-respected school that could surely hold their own in the ring. The fight was approved, but with a few rule changes. There would be no head butts and no kicks to the opponent if he is down on the ground. Master Toddy requested to keep the rules the same as before. His students had already gone through the UFC world of no-holds-barred cage fighting. He was confident they would do well in the bare-knuckle match...."


"...The feeling of alienation was quickly pushed aside by shock and amazement as the fighters witnessed what they were going to be put up against. A bout between a Thai and Burmese fighter had just begun, and the stadium lit up in activity. The bets were being lined up, and the audience began to cheer for their champion. At one point, the fighter from Burma had been literally kicked out of the ring. The crowd, being as fierce as the two warriors, doused the fighter with water and threw him back into the ring..."

"...Another bout had a devastating head butt that caused a fighter to fly backwards into a corner and succumb to a brutal head kick that knocked him out cold. Bout after bout had knockouts happening in every corner. The crowds cheered, and the fighters gave them a show. During a break, the promoter asked the US team to enter the ring and introduce themselves to the audience. As the roar of the people echoed in the stadium, one of the fighters shook his head in astonishment and asked himself, “What am I doing here?”..."

"... The first bout of the afternoon set the tone for the atmosphere that was quickly filling with cheers and bone-crunching sounds being pounded out minute after minute. The Thai boxer, Super O, squared off against Burma’s Jeleong. This bout was nonstop action. Fists, head butts, and kicks were flying everywhere. In this game you couldn’t afford to stop moving unless you wanted a quick exit from the ring in a stretcher. Both fighters tried to knock each other senseless but the bout ended with both still standing. The fight was declared a draw, and the crowds welcomed such an incredible skill of strength and stamina. Still, the audience was thirsty for a knockout..."


"...Although the US team’s dream run in the ring had been amazing to say the least, they didn’t quite achieve the four for four win they were aiming for. Unfortunately, nerves and a loss of focus on the fight kept Saul Mitchell from coming out with a win in the last bout of the evening. This mix had Saul unprepared to face Pone Tone of Burma. In the opening minute of the round Saul was unable to answer an attack combo that brought him down. Although he was determined enough to stand up and face his opponent again, it was ruled that he couldn’t take any more punishment. Pone Tone was declared the winner by knockout..."

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#29050 - 06/01/04 09:57 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
John_C Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 572
There's no Saul Mitchell listed on sherdog - is he mma, or k-1 rules?

1st Rd Ko, what did you make of UFC 47?

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#29051 - 06/01/04 10:01 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
John_C sorry my mistake, they are member sof Master Toddies gym and have fought in MMA events.
http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue9/muay.shtml

its hard finding good articles about the event here but its an awsome specticle.

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 06-01-2004).]

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#29052 - 06/01/04 10:55 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Muay Thai

Off topic question.

I was under the impression that-

(and I may have gotten some bad info here--thats why I am asking)

Burmese fighters and Thai fighters seldom matched.

Way off base or semi-accurate??

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#29053 - 06/01/04 11:37 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cxt:


Muay Thai

Off topic question.

I was under the impression that-

(and I may have gotten some bad info here--thats why I am asking)

Burmese fighters and Thai fighters seldom matched.

Way off base or semi-accurate??
[/QUOTE]


What do you mean? in terms of ability or matching for fights?

In terms of ability, I will be honest, for the last 30 years the Thais have dominated this "Song Khran" event. The Burmese however fight on a regular basis using no gloves and its normal practice to headbutt and kick to the groin and all manner of throws are legal ONLY no ground fighting. You can, as I have said before, kick your opponent on the ground, I think its like a two kick allowance so you cant stomp on his head!

That to me is a little confusing as the Burmese fight using the "old" rules on a regular basis but the Thais, while dominating this event, dont fight these kind of rules as regular as their Burmese opponents.

Somtimes there are even two referee's because of the rules allowed... it is NHB fighting only no ground submision is allowed, that will be found in Naban competitions in Burma. I have been to Burma about 4 times, its a very poor place and although I was only a short distance in country I couldnt believe there were no ATM's! when I asked I was given the reply "man, this Burma there are no ATM's"

Maybe they have something wrong is terms of financial responsibilities which may force the professional Burmese boxers to seek another Job while still fighting so their time is taken up by work, whereas the Thais have all the time in the world to train for fighting. I dunno thats just my opinion. The situation with one of the Burmese boxers being imprisoned for over staying his day visa is a perfect example of the hardships these fighters go through... for the majority, even if they wanted to, they couldnt compete in western events, some do however, they are few.

they are matched because of their long history at war. This event is more than just two fighters competing, this event is two countries who have continuosly been at war with each other both having victories and both having loses. It's good to see some foriegners taking part in this event and hopefully the MTV coverage will bring it to a wider audience and maybe some day we will see "Muay Chao Cherk" in western countries with the same rules.

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