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#29014 - 05/29/04 11:51 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by John_C:
Once again pete, I have no idea what message you're attempting to communicate.

Are you saying boxers need gear to fight, like Isshin was?

You're kidding yourself, I think, although I wouldn't encourage you to test the theory out.

Typically, Isshin tosses out an unargued one liner as his "point", and my gi comment is simply a rejoinder to that to point out the facility of what he's saying.

Frankly I was still reeling from the "boxing punches damage your thumbs" revelation at the time.
[/QUOTE]Hello Johnc, Earlier, i was speaking of a dislocation of the first metacarpal/Bennets fracture. Anyway, While the thumb/first metacarpal does cover the 2nd,& 3rd metacarpals,The thumb is itself exposed & can still be injured,& the chances of winning a fight are done with. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] ________________________________________ BTW ABout 6yrs ago,A greenbelt asked me,Why do we have to keep are thumbs on top? I was gonna tell him,It's because the forearm muscels are being used less,& therefore it allows for greater speed.But i did'nt tell him that.I thought of a better way for him to learn.Anyway, I told to just have his thumbs out,Or to pretend you're a boxer.& he said yeah So,& i said come after me.Before he knew it I had grasped his hands while at the sametime i had put both of my lft & rt thumbs.& on both of his thumb nails/distal phalanges or distal phalenges & I had put him on his knees. ________________________________________ ALthough this was sorta prearranged,It seemed to be rather easy,Because the thumbs were exposed. I Used to tell my students that body dynamics are a science.Cause If you don't think of it as such,You don't have the discipline,& If you don't have the discipline, you'll never be able to defend yourself. However that was along time ago. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]
http://www,csuchico.edu/phed/atc/projects/bennett/bennett.html

Cheers [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Isshinryukid4life (edited 05-30-2004).]

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#29015 - 05/30/04 10:02 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Lokkan-Do Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 1411
Loc: Ontario, Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
This post is really more for a sport vs. street debate, but I find that it parallels the discussion here to some extent, so I'm posting it anyway. Sue me.

About half of the people get it and (oddly enough), half don't. The half that don't are the same folks who love the mystery of the martial arts and, the romance of "street fighting". They pretend to train because their arts are just too deadly to spar with. They "know" (somehow they know) that they can KILL a man with just a few blows.

Not that THEY'VE ever done it, but that's what they've been TOLD (because as you know, their master's, master's, master's, master's, master did it once several hundred years ago). These folks know that THEIR art is the ONLY true art for the "street"! (By GOD!)[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-29-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

I see your point and agree with the sportative training thing. I don't think there are super deadly arts out there. Some arts say they don't want to do NHB because they don't want their art taking on the image of something uncivilized.

I think boxing can be deadly (not super deadly). I've been lucky to see a few boxers in real fights...they ended the fights within seconds.

(What do you think about these points against boxing strategy?)
I think their weakness is that they rely alot on timing (I wouldn't underestimate it at punching distance), but how useful is timing once you enter the trapping range?) There is no the need to bob, weave and dance around. Once you got the hand trapped targets are open.

Do you think you should worry about close quarter boxing techniques when you go in the clinch or should you ignore those and go straight for elbows, neck cranks etc...? Which of the two options do you think are more effective?

Nevertheless, I think boxing is a good art to borrow from. It has good training methods and allows you to flow from and to punching and close quarter ranges easily.


Warm regards, Lok

[This message has been edited by Lokkan-Do (edited 05-30-2004).]

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#29016 - 05/30/04 11:31 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:
I see your point and agree with the sportative training thing. I don't think there are super deadly arts out there.
[/QUOTE]


I don't think that there ARE any "deadly" empty hand arts out there. I do however believe in deadly situations. For example, having the mount position on someone who's head is against a hard surface. Repeatedly punching someone like this in the head can and has resulted in death.

This was the case of Thomas Junta vs. Michael Costin. Costin died as a result of head trauma, brough about by Thomas punching him in the head repeatedly from the mount. You may remember this case as the infamous "Hockey Dad's" fight. It shows that head trauma is a sure-fire fight ender, and in this case, life-ender.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

Some arts say they don't want to do NHB because they don't want their art taking on the image of something uncivilized.
[/QUOTE]

That's fine. However, those artists shouldn't go around bad mouthing those that DO want to engage. They shouldn't sit back from a safe distance and "talk" about how deadly their arts are and, that they would defeat the "sport guys" on the street, all the while making excuses about not wanting to or, being able to spar because of their arts alleged superiority.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

I think boxing can be deadly (not super deadly). I've been lucky to see a few boxers in real fights...they ended the fights within seconds.
[/QUOTE]

Boxers have died in the ring. That's deadly enough for me. That SHOULD shut the "street guys" mouths, but it doesn't. They continue to make excuses.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

(What do you think about these points against boxing strategy?)
I think their weakness is that they rely alot on timing (I wouldn't underestimate it at punching distance, but how useful is it when you get into trapping range?
[/QUOTE]

Time is an essential element no matter WHAT range you find yourself in. Timing is the attribute by which you're able to execute your offense and defense. Timing was never and can never be a detriment to any athlete


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:
There is no the need to bob, weave and dance around. Once you got the hand trapped targets are open.
[/QUOTE]

Bobbing and weaving, etc. are tactics. Those tactics can come into play at any time, depending on the situation. As I have mentioned before, the difference on the street is not one of tactics, so much as it is one of strategy. A boxers strategy will be different--not his tactics.

On the street, a boxer isn't GOING to dance around and "play the game". He's going to focus on hitting and more hitting, without letting up.

Trapping a boxers hands at this point will only open a person up to a knock out. Never try and trap a persons hands using traditional methods. You don't control the arm at the hand, you control the arm at the source -- the shoulder. If you're going to trap, you've got to get into a clinch and trap the whole arm by controlling the shoulder. You do that by getting the underhook as taught in Greco-Roman...not Wing Chun or Jun Fan. Forget those things pronto, if nothing more than for your health.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

Do you think you should worry about close quarter boxing techniques when you go in the clinch or should you ignore those and go straight for elbows, neck cranks etc...? Which of the two options do you think are more effective?
[/QUOTE]

I believe you need to break the clinch into two different frames of referrence:
1. Unattached
2. Attached

The unattached clinch (trapping range) is not really a good place to be, unless you are completely outclassing your opponent. We call this the "range of exchanges". This is because both parties will be throwing rapid-fire combinations at this range. You can be hit and the other guy can be hit. If the other guy is bigger/faster/stronger...he's going to come out with the edge here.

The ATTACHED clinch is where you'll want to be. This means, having an underhook, body lock, muay Thai "plumm", over-under clinch, etc.. The tactics you use will depend on which one of these clinch scenarios you have.

It should be obvious that I favor the attached clinch. This is because one has the positional control over your opponent. The UNattached clinch means that you do NOT. With positional control, you control your opponent's body. This should open up a variety of different attacking options just as it would from the ground, from strikes (fist, elbow, headbutt, knee) to takedowns.

Let me speak briefly about standing submissions (chokes, neck cranks, etc.): I don't really feel that they are among the highest percentage of tactics that you could use. It really comes down to how you control the clinch.

For example, when using the front headlock, you can use a choke as well as knee strikes. The choke comes about as a result of a snap-down. Perhaps if you hit it quick, you can nail that one from other positions. But in my experience, only the front headlock position offers this kind of offense.

The best offense from the clinch, will come in the form of knee strikes or takedowns.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

Nevertheless, I think boxing is a good art to borrow from. It has good training methods and allows you to flow from and to punching and close quarter ranges easily.

Warm regards, Lok

[/QUOTE]


Boxing provides a needed element, but doesn't provide the whole picture. It is incomplete, just like Brazilian jiu-jitsu. However, once you add the boxing (modifying it for the street, but keeping the same method of training) to a Greco-Roman clinch game, and add to this the VERY necessary element of Brazilian jiu-jitsu training, you then create a fighter that it would be foolish to mess with on the street, in the ring, or anywhere ELSE you care to mention.

The sport arts allow you to train. They aren't complete pictures, with the exception of putting them all together in ONE STYLE. That "style" is today's MMA. Just remember, MMA is just a method of training. You still modify that for the street. Again, not so much tactically, but strategically.

Take care!

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-30-2004).]

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#29017 - 05/30/04 11:58 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Lokkan-Do Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 1411
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Thanks

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#29018 - 05/30/04 01:47 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Anonymous
Unregistered


In the issue of one vs. another, it is my opinion that you should learn as much as you can from all forms of martial arts.
It has been said before in the thread that no one form is complete, so should that not prompt you to experience as many as possible?

If not for the broadening of your mind and body, then for the honing of your ability.

I have not been able to experience as much as I desire, thusfar. I am currently training in/around/within Muay Thai and I do have fighting experience OUTSIDE of training, not mentioning the fact that I am a naturally aggressive person. Both of those things are very helpful to getting comfortable in learning your particular art. So, to whomever may have started this thread, I advise you to master both, and then more.

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#29019 - 05/30/04 02:35 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Allerlei:
In the issue of one vs. another, it is my opinion that you should learn as much as you can from all forms of martial arts.
It has been said before in the thread that no one form is complete, so should that not prompt you to experience as many as possible?
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I think many realize this now, to be true.

The problem is, you still have people out there who still suffer from "black or white" thinking. Those folks feel that there are two distinct methods; one being sport and the other being street, and never the two shall meet. This sort of thinking is garbage.

The underlying problem with these folks is, they fail to be able to separate the sport side of boxing, from the DELIVERY system of boxing. They do the same thing with Brazilian jiu-jitsu and wrestling.

In their minds, they simply cannot fathom the possibility that, you can put ANY sort of "attachment" on the end of a boxing punch (ie, finger jab, palm heel strike, etc).

They also believe that in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, you HAVE to roll around on the ground for 10 minutes before doing anything. These people cannot (for the life of them) see where the sport ends, and the delivery system begins. That is why this argument persists.


-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-30-2004).]

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#29020 - 05/30/04 05:05 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
joesixpack Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/04/02
Posts: 2282
Loc: Australia
John, I couldn't agree more that the idea that "street" and "sport" are disctinct is quite silly.

You and I agree on a lot more than I thought.

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#29021 - 05/30/04 05:24 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Likely so, Joe.

The odd thing is, a LOT of us are probably a lot closer to agreement than we realize. It's the limitations of this medium which cause a lot of the "static".


-John

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#29022 - 05/30/04 05:32 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Anonymous
Unregistered


The internet seems to have that effect on communication.

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#29023 - 05/31/04 08:22 AM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Anonymous
Unregistered


What a fucking stupid question to ask....wtf?!?!?!
boxing only involves punching...why only do that when you can knee, kick, head strike and elbow. Muay Thia is the ruler of stand up fighting. Just look at Pride, UFC, IVC, King of the cage etc...MMA events. You never ever see a boxer enter it without cross-training, its succidal. Not to mention grappling as an important alternative....I have many clips of boxers, kung fu experts, karate, even some muay thia and kick boxers Vs grapplers (judo, BJJ) and about 95% of the time, graaplers win. It shows how important it is to cross train and quite simply, BOXING is pathetic against a trained MMA opponent. Vanderlei SIlva VS Mike Tyson or any known boxer. He'll be kissing canvas in round one!

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