FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 48 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc, kellypnik123, leyinn
22904 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 15
cxt 8
trevek 6
futsaowingchun 3
JKogas 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/11/14 03:36 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
12/30/13 08:32 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Prizewriter
04/16/12 02:48 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
04/12/12 11:16 AM
Throwing
by
04/23/05 10:58 PM
Recent Posts
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by cxt
Today at 12:01 PM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Dobbersky
07/29/14 05:11 AM
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:53 AM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/14/14 04:50 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:35 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
07/09/14 06:13 AM
Throwing
by JKogas
07/03/14 07:40 PM
Forum Stats
22904 Members
36 Forums
35564 Topics
432457 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 10 of 15 < 1 2 ... 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 >
Topic Options
#29054 - 06/01/04 12:01 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Muay Thai

Thanks for getting back to me.

No, was not implying any lack of ability on anyones side.

I was told by an "in country" guy--who is NOT a martial artist that Thais didn't really allow Bermese to fight competitivatly in bouts.

I didn't know what he meant by that--thought it may have something to do with some kind or regional thing, maybe some bad blood between the Thais and Bermese.

I asked him to elaborate and some of reasons he gave were.

1- National sport for Tailand so they seldom had International comeptiton--like with Burma

2- That the Bermese were "bigger" people--makes no sense to me bu tthat is what he said.
I figure that he meant that they were on the heavy side of any given weight class--still makes no sense to me--but that is what he said.

3- The Bermese methods of fighting (bando) had differnet rules that Muay Thai so it was hard to set up a "equal" match--because both sets of fighters trained with different rules.
Very hard to get them agree on exactly how the match would be done.

Again I was just not sure that he was telling me stright--dude is NOT a martial arts guy so even his 3td hand report is suspect.

Top
#29055 - 06/01/04 04:45 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Anonymous
Unregistered


yeah your right. What im saying is using boxing as offense and basically using my martial arts knowlege as defense such as joint manipulation. Also i like to boom out of nowhere throw a kick appropiate for that moment.

Top
#29056 - 06/01/04 05:08 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
Hold the f**k up here John, I aint saying these guys would blow anyone away in UFC. ok.
[/QUOTE]

Essentially you have. Shall I find your own quote for you?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Fabled Thailand? have you ever been there? do you really know what the f**k you are talking about?
[/QUOTE]

I know what YOU are talking about Muay Thai, and, it's what YOU are talking about, that I am talking about.

(God I loved that one folks! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG])


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Who gives a flying shit about UFC and Mixed Martial Arts? I dont!!! Stop being so friggen protective of UFC J, you are like a big child refusing to believe some people dont like UFC and Mixed Martial Arts.....
[/QUOTE]


Hey, I realize that some fighters (and folks) don't like the UFC. That's mostly because they know they can't do anything but hit. They also know that once they've been taken out of their element that they'll be dismantled. That's why "many" people don't like it. Certainly not all, but many.

The deal is, this isn't about whether they like it or not, or whether you like it or not. It's about my opinon that you cannot call people great fighters unless they DO have the whole game. You may disagree, although I can't see how. Nonetheless, that's your right. Just as it is MY right to feel the way I do and to list the REASONS why I do.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

dont start the "its the whole game" bullshit, dude I couldnt care less,
[/QUOTE]

Well, I think you HAVE to include the whole game, otherwise, you're only talking about one diminsional fighters.

Just answer one question for us all, tell us HOW a one diminsional fighter can even come CLOSE to being considered among the "worlds greatest living fighters"?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

I only know a little ground fighting "Naban", mate I am 28 and I have never fought nor do I see myself fighting on the ground EVER! so then why the hell should I worry about such things. hmm...
[/QUOTE]

Maybe because people exist who CAN take you off of your feet and beat you down? Maybe??? I'm mean, just maybe that's possible? If not, congratulations...you're the BEST fighter on the planet.

ATTENTION FORUM MEMBERS: We (may) have the best fighter on the planet as a member of OUR HUMBLE LITTLE FORUM!!!

(Just having some fun with you there guy, don't take it seriously.) Don't you just LOVE it folks when Muay Thai and I start going around??!!)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

maybe these other fighters kinda think the same John. You will say "then I will pay for it" bla bla bla.... No I wont John because I simply dont walk around looking for fights and the place I like to compete is in Muay Thai because I like to fight not wrestle. Is it still hard to understand? or are you getting it now [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Oh, I SEE what you're saying...but you're thinking that wrestling isn't fighting. Hey that's all well and good bro, but ya oughtta try it once because I think you'll change your mind once you experience a little ground-n-pound music!

However, whether YOU wish to compete in it or not, or whether you even LIKE it or not, is not the argument here.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

You're pissing me off J, I mean its no good sitting here being pissed off but dude you gotta stop bullshitting about "game" and UFC as the best arena for fighting.
[/QUOTE]

It is. And do you know WHY it is? It IS the best because, it requires people to actually be able to do something other than just HIT! I mean, if you can't understand that being "one diminsional" is a bad thing, then you're beyond any sort of rationale. The UFC (lets just say, MMA) is the best proving ground, BECAUSE IT REQUIRES FIGHTERS TO BE MULTI-DIMINSIONAL. End of story. If a fighter isn't multi-diminsional...then he's just not among the best fighters out there. Period.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Who gives a flying shite? You obviously have never even been to Thailand and you OBVIOUSLY have never seen much fights outside of UFC or other arenas similar to UFC, I am telling to please shut the f**k up.
[/QUOTE]


Now, I'm going act as if that never was said. Because otherwise, those would be fighting words. If you were to have said them in front of me, I'd demonstrate exactly WHY it is that you need a ground game bro. Then you'd be eating your meals from a straw for a few weeks...dig?

However, I'm not going to hold that against you because I realize I've pissed you off. I understand that and also understand that you're as hot blooded as I am. My hats off to you for that....I'm the same way and can appreciate it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

"...These claims COMPLETELY disrespect the fighters who HAVE stepped up and proven to the world who they are and what they’ve got..."
[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

what a lot of shite, so how many exactly of these fighters have actually fought outside of UFC and if they have where exactly did they fight. A fighter will train in whichever techniques are need to win a fight, the greater the fighter the better the mind to use these techniques....
[/QUOTE]

They fight in the UFC and or Pride because, it allows for a greater number of tactics and strategies (other than JUST HITTING!). I mean, why limit yourself, right? That's the way THEY feel. Why go into a boxing match if you're a wrestler and fight his game? That would be a stupid strategy don't you think?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

The thing is John, and this is something you obviously dont seem to fathom, a fighter is a fighter no matter what he is trained in, it doesnt matter if its grappling or purely standup.... dont you get it? can you get it?
[/QUOTE]

I understand your point Muay Thai, but you're not understanding mine. MY point is that, he may box or wrestle, etc. But unless the fighter is multi-diminsional, he's not a "complete" fighter. How can you call anyone a "greatest living fighter" when he's incomplete? That's just commons SENSE guy.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

I see a great fighter as a someone with a huge amount of experience and a great fight record and will to win.

Simple as that, its not hard learning how to grapple, I know I have been doing it, its not so f**king difficult john when you already know how to do it standing up. If he's a great fighter standing up and in clinch fighting they why do you think he would be crap on the ground?
[/QUOTE]


Maybe he wouldn't be a crappy fighter Muay Thai but then again, maybe he would be. We'll never KNOW because your guys never step up and SHOW it. Until they do, it's just more of your "flappin'" again about how these guys are the "greatest living fighters."


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:


By the way, that 350+ fight record with NO knockdowns IS impressive, John he is a great fighter. Muay Thai aint no easy arena to fight in, in fact in my opinion its tougher phyisically on the body and mind than Mixed Martial Arts... why? because you gotta fight and make hard contact all the time not just to get your opponent on the ground.... The death toll statistics and injury stats just tell you which arena is the most "dangerous" to fight in. Doesnt mean that UFC aint dangerous but when a man is given the choice to "tap" out, generally humans will when faced with agonising pain.

....so what were you saying again?

[/QUOTE]

I'm saying that, if a fighter isn't multi-diminsional, he can't be considered among the "greatest living fighters". The Thai matches may BE more dangerous. So would be boxing. That's only because the rules mandate that you STAND the whole time and face your opponent toe to toe, when the BETTER strategy would be to attack his weaknesses -- just like a REAL fight, instead of a staged one where you place so many limitations on what a fighter "can or can't do".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Credability in your eyes? UFC is a good place to fight and prove your ability in wrestling, ITS BORING TO WATCH!
[/QUOTE]


Not at all. You just have to have enough gray matter to understand subtlety and the nuances of grappling, and the various strategies used. Strategies OTHER than "just hitting" someone over and over again. Want to talk about BORING!


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 06-01-2004).]

Top
#29057 - 06/01/04 05:14 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
John_C Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 572
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
John_C sorry my mistake, they are member sof Master Toddies gym and have fought in MMA events.
http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue9/muay.shtml

its hard finding good articles about the event here but its an awsome specticle.
[/QUOTE]

NP. It's an interesting article.

I'd guess that these guys had only fought in amateur events. As far as I know, Sherdog lists all pro & semi-pro MMA records.

3 out of four isn't bad considering that though.

Top
#29058 - 06/01/04 09:24 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

John, have you forgotten about Maurice Smith, Muay Thai Champ turned UFC champ??? he is a shining example of a striker picking up the ground work and excelling, dominating.
[/QUOTE]


No, I haven't forgotten about Mo. But my argument wasn't about strikers doing well in the MMA events. They have and continue to do well. MY argument was simply, to tell Mauy Thai to chill out about his arguments regarding the Thais as being the best fighters in the world, until they fight in a big time MMA event and prove themselves in that environment. THAT was what the gist of my argument was about

I have no doubt about a strikers ability to win in an MMA fight. Both Maurice and Chuck Liddell (among others) have proven this. But again, that wasn't my argument.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

i dont agree with you that a fighter MUST have grappling.
[/QUOTE]

Wrong! You MUST have a ground game. Otherwise, you leave a TREMENDOUS hole in your defense. The quickest way to get beaten by someone on the ground, is to not know ONE THING about ground fighting. Just like the quickest way to get knocked out is to not know anything about boxing. The quickest way to get taken down, is to not know a THING about takedowns.

Ground fighting is a MAJOR component. Without having skill there means only that, that is where you'll be beaten the worst.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

groundwork is only 1 component of a total system
[/QUOTE]

That has BEEN MY ARGUMENT! Without a ground game, you're one diminsional. Without a STANDING game you're one diminsional. I believe that you have to be MULTI-Diminsional. That's what I've been saying.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

and many if not the majority of UFC fighters have extremely weak stand up skills, hence they shoot to the ground ASAP.
[/QUOTE]

That's because it is their STRENGTH. There's nothing wrong with going with your strong suit, if it's working. Most of the time it does.

You have to realize that, the majority of the fighters in the UFC have wrestling backgrounds. Going to the ground is going to be second nature for them. You can't fault them for that.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

in practice, it is much easier for a strong grappler with weak stand up to shoot in and fight by his own terms against a strong striker with weak grappling. it is always easier to go to the ground, hence over 90% of street fights follow the same fate. this does not make him a better fighter but rather, it draws attention to the fact that he is not a complete fighter.
[/QUOTE]


Well, I have to say, that the "better" fighter is the fighter that WINS. Wouldn't you agree? I mean sure, by your terms, he may NOT be a complete fighter, but he's got enough of what he needs apparently to do the job.

However if you'll look, most of today's fighters with wrestling backgrounds have VASTLY improved striking ability. It's getting better every day. Take a look at a guy like Randy Couture, Chuck Liddell and Tito Ortiz! All of them are wrestlers. Most of today's champions have been and are. But, their striking is improving all the time. And why? Because the smart fighters realize the need to be multi-diminsional.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

a truly superior fighter would not have to execute such strategy and would be comfortable standing or grappling.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed and that is and HAS been exactly my point.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

whle there are a few such people in UFC and Pride, they are scarce.
no disrespect to UFC as i am a fan, but i also think UFC has bastardized martial arts to the extent that it focuses too highly on groundwork
[/QUOTE]

That is nothing more than a reality of fighting. However, I see more and more fights staying upright all the time. I would go on the say that people are realizing the need to have a standing game.

But the thing about taking a fighter off of his feet and putting him in a bad position, is an example of smart strategy! Strategy is the name of the game. Think about it this way; If you can take a guy off his feet, and put him in a bad position, you LIMIT his offensive possibilities while, DOUBLING YOUR offensive (and thus simultaneously DEFENSIVE) possibilities. That's why it's done -- because it WORKS!

I can not for the very LIFE of me, find a fault in placing someone in a position where I can hit them but they can't hit me. Not matter how hard I TRY, I just can't.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

and allows substandard full system fighters to excel by shooting and going to the mat.
[/QUOTE]

Isn't that a contradiction in terms? "Substandard full system"? How can a full system be sub-standard? Maybe I'm just not understanding you. Please explain.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

this does not qualify them as being great fighters by any means but those ignorant of martial arts are lead to believe this to be the case.
[/QUOTE]

Well, I would rather use the term "complete fighter" because if they're winning consistently in the MMA environment, then they're obviously great fighters. Great fighters simply win and they do so by whatever means they can. You can't fault these guys for going with their strengths. As a said earlier, winning is about executing your strategy. If you're going against someone who is a superior striker, it would be a foolish strategy NOT to take them to the mat. Just can't blame them for this.

Does that mean that they're complete fighters? No. It does mean that they're winning fighters. Last time I checked, that was the whole idea.

-John

Top
#29059 - 08/04/04 07:24 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Anonymous
Unregistered


if a boxer knows how to block kicks and fight on the ground anyone who challenges him is STUFFED! all there is to it.i would love to see ANY black belt take on tyson. and boxin is boxin in the ring. u fight a boxer out of ring then he still has natural instict to help on the ground and kick blocks

Top
#29060 - 12/15/04 04:37 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Its all in who you are fighting, overall you have to have both ground and stand up skills. A boxer doesnt want to fight a good wrestler and a wrestler doesnt want to fight a good boxer. I do admit to give and take a punch is 90% of a street fight, but you still need to know how to work the ground, cause its hard to punch when someone is in the mount on you.

The chances of fighting a well trained grappler on the street are very slim mind you. A good boxer should be able to take on just about any typical bar fight.

Top
#29061 - 12/16/04 01:27 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Boxed needs to be balanced with throws and grappling to be a better all around fighter.
MA can learn a lot from boxing and vice-visa
for boxing.

Top
#29062 - 12/16/04 03:29 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Anonymous
Unregistered


You made some good points John some of which I agree with.
If there was a great Thai fighter why hasn't he entered a tournament?

I did want to ask you John what are your thoughts on fighters not being allowed to enter UFC and the like.
The reason I ask is that its common knowledge in the boxing world that some boxers have thier opponents 'tailor picked' for them and was wondering if you thought that this maybe went on with the UFC etc.

You made a good point all the same...if they are so good where are they all?

Top
#29063 - 12/16/04 05:13 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well I have to say, there is no fooling around in selecting fighters, a good friend of mine went to a tryout for the UFC, they broke it down into trial matches, such as; 20 fighters go 1 on 1 then you have 10 left then they were 1 on 1 then there was 5 left for a final round selection. This is just an example breakdown of how he explained it. He lost in the first round but got to stay and see the rest.

In boxing the promoter puts on the fight and picks his fighters so thats how it goes, usually for instance Tyson's promoter will say who would be a good match for him, either for a large purse or for a good win and he will put out his bids to fighters some will deny and other accept thats how that goes.

Thai Boxers are good fighters, they are very few in North America compared to wrestling, boxing, judo, kickboxing. Your not going to get a lot of quality contenders when you have such a small base of athletes. You wouldnt see any good wrestlers if they took wrestling out of university and the olympics I bet either, cause only a small fraction would still be doing it. I box currently and kick boxed before and I would not want to fight a Thai boxer thats for sure.

But for someone who is at the top of a list like Lennox Lewis could easily dominate most Thai boxers because he is an elite athlete and most Thai boxers coulnt compete with a skill level like that. Sort of like a black belt in tae kwon do fighting a top pro level kickboxer, its not a fair matchup.

An art is only good as its support by the people. If you dont have a large athlete base, good trainers and traing facilites as well as money to support the althletes the quality of fighters is not going to be there.

I am sure if you held a MMA advent in Thailand or Holland you would get some quality Thai fighters if the money was there.

Another note is, its hard to get top level athletes to compete as well in any money sport like boxing or kickboxing because, well why would they take the time to cross train when they can make more money doing what they do. Boxers have it good, even a bad fighter can get a few grand for a fight, the promoter will pay to fly to and from and his hotel plus food. Its all about money and doing what you like to do.

Thats my novel of the idea.

Top
Page 10 of 15 < 1 2 ... 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga