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#29034 - 05/31/04 02:40 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
Ask yourself if you truly believe all that pretending is going to help you against an athletic, conditioned and experienced combat sport guy. If you STILL believe that, get into the ring or on the mats with one. Go for a quick round and see if you can "hang" with one for 30 seconds before you are knocked out or submitted. THEN come back and tell us that your "pretend" training will be of benefit!


-John


John,I'll be respectfully,& diplomaticly as i possible. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]Although going in the ring & on the mat is helpful to a certain extent. Yet my experince of fighting while growing up was not in the ring. One things that happend to me daily as i went to school,Was having 4 to 5 guys jump be from behind.Which is far differentfrom a controlled invirenment with rules & what not while sprring with one guy. I've had fights where the other guy would have a nife or baseball bat,& yes a hammer,frying pan [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] & a gun. Anyway IMCO that what i've gone through was more brutal than what you're referring to.That being said I'm sure they'er some ppl on this forum that have gone through worse.Oh, I might not agree with you at times,But i do respect you as a MA PS Plz excuse my bad spelling [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG] ________________________________________Cheers [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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#29035 - 05/31/04 02:47 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
There are decent fighters all over the world, with their own respective fans and, their own respective "voices" shouting about how great these fighters are.

NEVER in the history of the world have people been given the opportunity to step up onto the world stage and into the spotlight, to showcase their skills. The way media is today, word has never gotten out FASTER about which fighters have the right stuff.

Of these main stages, the UFC, PrideFC and, to a lesser extent (due to the fact that it is not MMA) K1, lead the way above ALL else. These events showcase, without a doubt, the individuals who are the VERY best at competition "reality" fighting.

There is a lot of talk among people these days, about fighters who are "supposedly" superior to ALL of these fighters participating in MMA and the KI. These fighters would "allegedly" MOW DOWN the competition. But it seems that it's nothing more than more blowing smoke.

These fighters NEVER materialize. They NEVER come forth out of their "dens of oblivion" and showcase their skills. WHY is this one has to ask?

The FANS of these fighters NEVER shut up. They constantly flap their jaws about these guys. The problem is, talk is cheap. VERY cheap. ACTION is the ONLY true vehicle of credibility.

Without this action, all these fighters and their skills, are nothing more than the product of wishfull thinking and cheap talk.

Who does this apply to? Only to those who think that it does.


-John

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#29036 - 05/31/04 02:56 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Isshinryukid4life:


John,I'll be respectfully,& diplomaticly as i possible. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
Athough going in the ring & on the mat is helpful to a certain extent. Yet my experince of fighting while growing up was not in the ring. One things that happend to me daily as i went to school,Was having 4 to 5 guys jump be from behind. Which is far differentfrom a controlled invirenment with rules & what not while sprring with one guy.
[/QUOTE]

Let me ask you a question right here; in your honest opinion, is there a martial art ANYWHERE that will even the odds in a situation in which, you are outmanned 4 or 5 to 1?

I've give you MY answer: HELL NO! Only the martial art of HANDGUNNING will even the odds in that scenario. But, you may have a different opinion. I'd like to hear what your's is.

But what does this have to do with "pretend" training vs. training athletically against resistance?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Isshinryukid4life:

I've had fights where the other guy would have a nife or baseball bat,& yes a hammer,frying pan [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] & a gun.
[/QUOTE]

Did you win against the guy with the knife and bat? Did you win against the guy with the gun??? I'm really curious about it.

But again, tell me how this has anything to do with "pretend" training vs. training athletically against resistance?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Isshinryukid4life:

Anyway IMCO that what i've gone through was more brutal than what you're referring to.
[/QUOTE]

That's all relative


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Isshinryukid4life:

That being said I'm sure they'er some ppl on this forum that have gone through worse.Oh, I might not agree with you at times,But i do respect you as a MA PS Plz excuse my bad spelling [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif[/IMG]

Cheers [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]


I understand what you're saying, but we're talking about two different things here. You're talking about your brutal life experiences and I'm talking about training hard.

I would STILL think that hard training will help you better in real life situations than PRETENDING to train and fight ANYDAY!

Am I wrong?


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-31-2004).]

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#29037 - 05/31/04 03:42 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
There are decent fighters all over the world, with their own respective fans and, their own respective "voices" shouting about how great these fighters are.

NEVER in the history of the world have people been given the opportunity to step up onto the world stage and into the spotlight, to showcase their skills. The way media is today, word has never gotten out FASTER about which fighters have the right stuff.

Of these main stages, the UFC, PrideFC and, to a lesser extent (due to the fact that it is not MMA) K1, lead the way above ALL else. These events showcase, without a doubt, the individuals who are the VERY best at competition "reality" fighting.

There is a lot of talk among people these days, about fighters who are "supposedly" superior to ALL of these fighters participating in MMA and the KI. These fighters would "allegedly" MOW DOWN the competition. But it seems that it's nothing more than more blowing smoke.

These fighters NEVER materialize. They NEVER come forth out of their "dens of oblivion" and showcase their skills. WHY is this one has to ask?

The FANS of these fighters NEVER shut up. They constantly flap their jaws about these guys. The problem is, talk is cheap. VERY cheap. ACTION is the ONLY true vehicle of credibility.

Without this action, all these fighters and their skills, are nothing more than the product of wishfull thinking and cheap talk.

Who does this apply to? Only to those who think that it does.


-John

[/QUOTE]

John, I am sure if you asked many of todays great UFC fighters who they think are naturally gifted (born) fighters you'd maybe be surprised with who they mention.

This is not FLAPPING, this is not a "fan" shouting, this is the way it is. These guys dont fight in UFC or K1 (actually they do in k1 at lower wieght division and do clean up) or almost all the other "westernised" fighting arenas because of very obvuious reasons. Now John I aint saying you have never been out of USA but I can tell you now, media or not, the majority of poverty stricken fighters from S.E.Asia only hear whispers about fighting abroad... its to some of them something that they will never see.... but nevertheless, and I know how much you hate to believe this, they are the greatest fighters ever born! Saying what you said is stupid, I hate to sound patronising but man, I have been to many of the countries there, I know from first hand experience that these guys simply have no idea what USA or Europe woiuld be like let alone want to further their goals by wanting to fight there. You see for these guys all they care about is winning the local stadiums belt! earning money and fighting for the glory that comes from where they live. That is not a romanticised comment and dont think it is, its a fact of the life they are living. UFC is not so big in S.E.Asia. Japan is westernised to such an extent that even Japan to many of these people is just another "heaven" they may never see in their lifetime.

Take what way you want but until you have first hand experience, or witness some of teh greatest fighters living then all you can do is compare with other UFC fighters.

Sorry mate if that sounds like an arguement but I feel pasionate about that and my heart goes out for these so very great fighters who have nothing to their name while the UFC makes good fighters out to be the best, Mexico, Cuba... both similar countries producing some of the worlds greatest ever boxers but how far do they get, now and again some slip through the mess of immigration and beaurocratic bullshit to make it in our so over rated society.

make of that what you will

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#29038 - 05/31/04 04:00 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Lokkan-Do Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 1411
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I would STILL think that hard training will help you better in real life situations than PRETENDING to train and fight ANYDAY!

100% True!!

I am not really following this, but almost wholey I agree with you John...however...

Ever heard or sport Karate? Kickboxing. Kata boy doing 1000 punches a day on punching bag and using boxing's training methods to get better results? The option is always there for those that are interested in a more practical approach.

Kung Fu freak cross training and doing Kung Fu freestyle fighting? (A form of kickboxing basically)

If it's how you train anyone from any style and any country can be athletic.

Even Mike Tyson doesn't want the lastest equipment, he goes to a run down gym in his old poverty stricken neighbourhood.


Adding to Mauy Thai's argument:
In South Asia..those indian wrestlers rock!!! They don't have fancy equipment, but they spend all day training (24 hours) with little break or literally no break. The are one of the most conditioned fighters in the world and heck prolly better conditioned than those Greco-Roman wrestlers (IMHO prolly). These guys do this because it's the only way to get a job and to carry on the tradition and duty of their ancestors.

Heck, it's always easy to think that you are the best because you were born [insert name of country].

Right cross, uppercut, PunJAB. (I'm Sikh)


Warm regards, Lok

[This message has been edited by Lokkan-Do (edited 05-31-2004).]

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#29039 - 05/31/04 05:17 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

John, I am sure if you asked many of todays great UFC fighters who they think are naturally gifted (born) fighters you'd maybe be surprised with who they mention.
[/QUOTE]

I'm sure there would be a lot of names. Maybe, then again who really knows? My point is, until someone is willing and or able to step up onto these grand stages, it’s all really a matter of opinion – not established fact. I mean hey, opinions are great and all………

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

This is not FLAPPING, this is not a "fan" shouting, this is the way it is.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, was I accusing YOU of “flapping”? And, this “way that it is”…. is that your opinion again? Is this ”way it is” coming from a credible MMA sanctioning body?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

These guys dont fight in UFC or K1 (actually they do in k1 at lower wieght division and do clean up) or almost all the other "westernised" fighting arenas because of very obvuious reasons. Now John I aint saying you have never been out of USA but I can tell you now, media or not, the majority of poverty stricken fighters from S.E.Asia only hear whispers about fighting abroad... its to some of them something that they will never see....
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but that’s still an excuse. You have to consider that fighters EVERYWHERE around the whole GLOBE are aware of the UFC, etc. People from all OVER are training to compete in just such events. This is NO EXCUSE whatsoever, for not have SOME person step up and prove themselves beyond a matter of opinion, within a credible event, put on by a credible MMA sanctioning body. Let the people decide for themselves.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

…but nevertheless, and I know how much you hate to believe this, they are the greatest fighters ever born!
[/QUOTE]

According to whom, Muay Thai? You? Hey, ya know, having a matter of opinion is one thing…proving it is another. That’s more cheap talk until someone comes to the plate to swing man.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Saying what you said is stupid, I hate to sound patronising but man, I have been to many of the countries there, I know from first hand experience that these guys simply have no idea what USA or Europe woiuld be like let alone want to further their goals by wanting to fight there.
[/QUOTE]

Dude, I don’t have a problem with these fighters, being unwilling to step up. They can stay where they’re at man, I don’t care. But what I do care about, are people who mouth off about fighters who they claim “are the best”, without ANY proof whatsoever, beyond their mere words. WORDS man! And only words will they continue to BE until they come out of their CAVES or wherever the hell they’re living and PROVE themselves. That my man, is the point that I’ve been making.

It isn’t the fighters that I talk against…only these unproven claims spewed so readily by “fans”


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

You see for these guys all they care about is winning the local stadiums belt! earning money and fighting for the glory that comes from where they live. That is not a romanticised comment and dont think it is, its a fact of the life they are living. UFC is not so big in S.E.Asia. Japan is westernised to such an extent that even Japan to many of these people is just another "heaven" they may never see in their lifetime.
[/QUOTE]

I understand this point, but it has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I’m talking about your claims that these are the greatest fighters living. Something that is nothing more than your opinion. However, it is NOT my opinion that three of the top fighters today are; Fedor Emelianenko, Wanderlei Silva, and, Matt Lindland. That isn’t my opinion because each of those guys have bothered to actually step up and prove themselves. Their records in MMA speak for themselves and, their ranking in MMA is beyond a matter of opinion. So, lets talk about verifiable facts and not opinions, shall we?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Take what way you want but until you have first hand experience, or witness some of teh greatest fighters living then all you can do is compare with other UFC fighters.
[/QUOTE]

That again man, is a matter of your opinion! When you say, the greatest fighters living, that is a matter of your OPINION my man! Greatest fighters compared against WHOM?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Sorry mate if that sounds like an arguement but I feel pasionate about that and my heart goes out for these so very great fighters who have nothing to their name while the UFC makes good fighters out to be the best,
[/QUOTE]

Well again, the UFC simply provides the platform. I’m certain that there ARE better fighters out there, who may never be known. Unfortunately for them, they can’t prove it. Unfortunately for their fans, they can’t establish themselves. That’s just the facts I suppose. But also unfortunately, until they can step up, it’s nothing but a lot of talk…and opinions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Mexico, Cuba... both similar countries producing some of the worlds greatest ever boxers but how far do they get, now and again some slip through the mess of immigration and beaurocratic bullshit to make it in our so over rated society.

make of that what you will
[/QUOTE]

That’s the way it is. Some fighters get to the top and some don’t. It’s not the fault of the guys who DO make it to the top though…they’ve EARNED their way there. Talk about “unknowns” as being superior, is just flatly disrespectful of the one’s who have risen to the top and have established themselves. That’s another point of mine.


Take care,

-John

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#29040 - 05/31/04 05:31 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

I am not really following this, but almost wholey I agree with you John...however...

Ever heard or sport Karate? Kickboxing. Kata boy doing 1000 punches a day on punching bag and using boxing's training methods to get better results?
[/QUOTE]

Then that wouldn't be "Pretend training" would it?

Now I'm certain you know what I am referring to when I speak of "pretend" training. And if you, or anyone else is spending your time, training against resistance, then this doesn't apply to you.

If you ARE spending your time in pretend training, I don't know how it is that you can find all of the free time necessary to do everything else that needs to be done to hone your skills (things like, weight training, cardio work, bag work, sparring kickboxing, sparring wrestling and jits, etc). That takes a LOT of time to accomplish!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

Even Mike Tyson doesn't want the lastest equipment, he goes to a run down gym in his old poverty stricken neighbourhood.
[/QUOTE]

That point has nothing to do with it. I feel certain that no MATTER where it is that Mike trains, he isn't "pretending" to fight, spar or train.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lokkan-Do:

Heck, it's always easy to think that you are the best because you were born [insert name of country].
[/QUOTE]

No...being the best has do only with one's ranking within an established MMA sanctioning body. "Proof" of this must be etablished outside of one's own opinion.


Take care!


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 05-31-2004).]

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#29041 - 05/31/04 07:02 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
According to whom, Muay Thai? You? Hey, ya know, having a matter of opinion is one thing…proving it is another. That’s more cheap talk until someone comes to the plate to swing man.

[/QUOTE]

John who dominates the Muay Thai circut? who dominates K1 max? who dominates the world in standup fighting arts? are these then not proven "greatest" fighters? are you blind? is old age getting to your sight [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] thats proof enough. Just like the cubans and mexicans in Boxing.

Eeven now some, god forbid, dare I even say it, "Thais" are holding world Boxing titles... of course at lower wieght divisions, the Mexicans and Cubans dominate the boxing circut.... Cro-Cop is an outstanding kicker, I know, his left high round house is a killer but dude... in my opinion... the guy is good but to be honest I have witnessed with my own eyes better fighters who are apparently "inexperienced" than any I have witness on the MMA fights I have watched, and I have watched a few, I am beginning to like it but in no way does it compare (in my opinion) to the excitment and pace of a Muay Thai fight - and thats my taste, yours may differ coming from a grappling background.

Pol Prapradang - the Wild Boar, 350 fights never being knocked down once! is that just coincidence or did he just fight weaker opponents all the time?

the fact is, when fighting is concerned the Thai people excell at it.... they dont fight in UFC, I can tell you this now, they simply dont care and its not talk, trust me on that, take a plane over there and SEE for yourself even test it out - take some students with you and maybe try it out there. I aint trying to blow any trupmets here so I dont know why you are attacking me with your little comments which tell me you're getting annoyed [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] Is it hard to understand that maybe some people, fighters included, simply find UFC boring? Ramon Dekker, an excellent fighter with 200+ fights who smashed his ankle rendering it useless, he came back from his injury knowing he couldnt use his leg again so kicked with the other, one leg, he went on to win - have you ever seen this man fight? He was aksed why doesnt he start fighting MMA, he said that he finds it boring, he likes to stand and fight... I dont think there is fear there and I dont think any of these fighter would enter the MMA arena without having cross trained. I dont know why the hell you keep saying "then why dont they stand up", ask yourself this, would you enter a Muay Thai arena and fight? if not then why? probably because you are not interested in it, this is not self defense and its not a "this is better than yours" bullshit, they do it because they love what it is they do. Its their choice and I doubt they are going to simply jump arenas simply to prove to the world that they are great fighters when they are already doing this where they are.

Now this isnt an arguemnt about MMA and Stand up these are comments on whom I believe to be great fighters. I am convinced once you actually witness these fighters i talk of actually fighting then your opinions may change. Why dont the mixed martial art guys take their skills to S.E.Asia and pit them against them, they do dont they? do they dominate? no they dont. Ok ground grappling is an aspect but dont you think when you take a fighter of such experience and train the man to be ready for a Mixed Martial Art event he wont make a mark? C'mon john, I think you can agree, you know and I know that anyone with an impressive (200+) fight record in a full contact fighting art (which doesnt allow ground grappling) when he's trained in ground grappling do you think he will suddenly forget his skills? or loose his experience and edge that made him such a great fighter in the first place.

Give credit to the little jungle boys... I do give credit to the UFC fighters, and all fighters for that matter. know a great fighter when I see one, speed and timing, precision and the 7 moves ahead, you can see the perfected techniques, it almsot unbelievable and very inspiring to watch. I watch UFC and I see two men fighting, on rare occasions do I see the aww inspiring fighter that I have seen so many times in Thailand. I am really sorry to say that and I know how much it pisses you off, I dont even know why you get pissed off at that, I suppose its just you not agreeing and the refusal to accept that there are many many people who finbd UFC boring. again I apologise but its the way I feel about it and what you see as a great fighter and what I see as a great fighter are apparently two completely different things but what does matter is that we both know how to go about getting great fighters.

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#29042 - 05/31/04 07:08 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Muay thia, your such a dumb ass....the reason I said Cro Cop's left kick was becuase to compare the power.................and in a match where he could kick.....not a boxing match

anyway....peace

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#29043 - 05/31/04 07:14 PM Re: Boxing vs Martial Arts
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
Donald - I checked your profile, I used to live in Bo'Ness, actually spent most of my youth there till I was about 9 I am just over the sea [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

anyway, I wasnt refering to your comment about Cro-Cop, I actually forgot about that.

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