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#290332 - 10/03/06 02:35 AM Unsu bunkai clip
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
I'm all for bunkai (direct application as it appears in kata) and oyo (karateka's personal interpretation of the bunkai)....watch this and around the 43 second mark is when it gets fishy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDfXwwksBug

Thoughts?
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#290333 - 10/03/06 08:17 AM Re: Unsu bunkai clip [Re: Boomer]
kensai1 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 52
Loc: Ohio
thanks for sharing boomer and yes that was a funny take down, i have never seen a take down quite like that. it almost looks like a backwards scissor take down. scissor take downs are common in shotokan, especially in the old days. that definately looks like the wrong kind scissor take down. i will say some of the techiniques look suspicious to. thanks again and nice video.

mike
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#290334 - 10/03/06 08:42 AM Re: Unsu bunkai clip [Re: Boomer]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Boomer,
There was some good stuff in ther and the guys are certainly talented. At about the 59 second mark they hooked a Marlin. Any time a move is interpreted as simutanious blocking in different directions I would say someone is barking up the wrong tree. I think a better comparison might be made with Tai chi's "parting the horses mane" or aikidos's "Tenchi nage".

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#290335 - 10/03/06 09:11 AM Re: Unsu bunkai clip [Re: Boomer]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
merit: choreography takes a certain imagination and talent. I believe they put on a good show.

demerit: They decipered the kata with a 'sparring mind'. That led them to always assume a range that is too far away for okinawan kata interpretation.

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#290336 - 10/03/06 09:12 AM Re: Unsu bunkai clip [Re: oldman]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Just out of interest how do you guys train your kata bunkai for self defence? If so, how close a representation is the applications demonstrated in this clip (accepting that it is a demo) to your applied stuff?
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#290337 - 10/03/06 09:15 AM Re: Unsu bunkai clip [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
It bears absolutly no resembelance whatsoever.

Very fundamentally if we are training for physical response to an attack,

ie in self defense then we need to at least try and work the 'likely' range, type of attack and intent into the training that we are likely to face if w eneed to use our art for this reason.

Apart from the huge misconceptions around karate's general philosophy I think this area is one of the biggest failings of modern karate transmition, generally.
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#290338 - 10/03/06 09:18 AM Re: Unsu bunkai clip [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Thank god for that Jim!

Do you think these guys actually believe that stuff or accept that it is just showy tripe?
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#290339 - 10/03/06 10:05 AM Re: Unsu bunkai clip [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I completely agree. although some kata seem to have showy stuff built in. That isn't hard to imagine since if you look at in particular, some northern Chinese forms (likely where at least some okinawan kata or at least influence come from), you'll see acrobatics and economy of movements which are pretty hard to believe they entirely contain useful fighting principles other than for developing raw athletic ability.
example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7e626mQh_M


even 300 years ago, there are records in Chinese martial art manuals mentioning 'street performing' forms. forms designed for show/entertainment, with a martial-like look and feel based loosely on fighting form.

taking those forms as they are and trying to find application is like reverse-engineering an XMA performance. sure, you'll find something - but will it be any less arbitrary than training without them?

can't blame them though...since the previous generation also demonstrated similar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLWvmOy0IE8&mode=related&search=

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#290340 - 10/03/06 10:59 AM Re: Unsu bunkai clip [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Well it's fair to say that some of my mid 80's instructors believed it...............

Personally the internet and dvd/seminar scene (whilst poorly inaccurate/presented most of the time) has certainly helped 'make things real' for the masses.

Is this a good thing, 'real' karoty for everyone.............im not convinced,

But I accept that I have a rather narrow view of these things.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#290341 - 10/03/06 12:32 PM Re: Unsu bunkai clip [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I think there is a big difference between narrow and realistic matey!
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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