I'm all for bunkai (direct application as it appears in kata) and oyo (karateka's personal interpretation of the bunkai)....watch this and around the 43 second mark is when it gets fishy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDfXwwksBug

Thoughts?

thanks for sharing boomer and yes that was a funny take down, i have never seen a take down quite like that. it almost looks like a backwards scissor take down. scissor take downs are common in shotokan, especially in the old days. that definately looks like the wrong kind scissor take down. i will say some of the techiniques look suspicious to. thanks again and nice video.

mike

Boomer,
There was some good stuff in ther and the guys are certainly talented. At about the 59 second mark they hooked a Marlin. Any time a move is interpreted as simutanious blocking in different directions I would say someone is barking up the wrong tree. I think a better comparison might be made with Tai chi's "parting the horses mane" or aikidos's "Tenchi nage".

merit: choreography takes a certain imagination and talent. I believe they put on a good show.

demerit: They decipered the kata with a 'sparring mind'. That led them to always assume a range that is too far away for okinawan kata interpretation.

Just out of interest how do you guys train your kata bunkai for self defence? If so, how close a representation is the applications demonstrated in this clip (accepting that it is a demo) to your applied stuff?

It bears absolutly no resembelance whatsoever.

Very fundamentally if we are training for physical response to an attack,

ie in self defense then we need to at least try and work the 'likely' range, type of attack and intent into the training that we are likely to face if w eneed to use our art for this reason.

Apart from the huge misconceptions around karate's general philosophy I think this area is one of the biggest failings of modern karate transmition, generally.

Thank god for that Jim!

Do you think these guys actually believe that stuff or accept that it is just showy tripe?

I completely agree. although some kata seem to have showy stuff built in. That isn't hard to imagine since if you look at in particular, some northern Chinese forms (likely where at least some okinawan kata or at least influence come from), you'll see acrobatics and economy of movements which are pretty hard to believe they entirely contain useful fighting principles other than for developing raw athletic ability.
example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7e626mQh_M


even 300 years ago, there are records in Chinese martial art manuals mentioning 'street performing' forms. forms designed for show/entertainment, with a martial-like look and feel based loosely on fighting form.

taking those forms as they are and trying to find application is like reverse-engineering an XMA performance. sure, you'll find something - but will it be any less arbitrary than training without them?

can't blame them though...since the previous generation also demonstrated similar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLWvmOy0IE8&mode=related&search=

Well it's fair to say that some of my mid 80's instructors believed it...............

Personally the internet and dvd/seminar scene (whilst poorly inaccurate/presented most of the time) has certainly helped 'make things real' for the masses.

Is this a good thing, 'real' karoty for everyone.............im not convinced,

But I accept that I have a rather narrow view of these things.

I think there is a big difference between narrow and realistic matey!

Quote:

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Any time a move is interpreted as simutanious blocking in different directions I would say someone is barking up the wrong tree. I think a better comparison might be made with Tai chi's "parting the horses mane" or aikidos's "Tenchi nage".

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I can agree with that, though there's old 8mm footage of Nakayama doing that exact bunkai here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLWvmOy0IE8&mode=related&search=

Was it to throw people off? After all, Unsu means "clouded hands"...
We have very different applications to that manuever than guarding against simultaneous attacks.

Oh boy,where to start?..

Multiple blocks befoe a counterstrike = dumb

Re te scissor kick takedown ..bullbutter!

Good show,but I hope they don't actually try that in real life.

Ok I posted Nakayama doing Unsu last week and nobody talked about it expect Victor. But I want to know why everyone goes at the kata from a sparring distance. When I see Unsu it looks like close striking and take downs. NOT flying take downs like in the first video posted in this thread.

Some people train differently I guess. In the first video thoes guys most likely point spar all the time. But Nakayama I don't know how he trained but it seemed similar. I have read one of his books where he details many shotokan techniques and the entire book is striking and countering. Lately katas are really starting to confuse me.

i could watch the old karate ka punch all day long....

but yeah, the bunkai is very athletic, but the way i see kata bunkai is more like in close almost clinch like fihgting, where the hikite could be used for pushing and pulling. kinda like what most people say....lol

don't you just think that these guys are sending out the messeges that karate is not "pratical"? i would say that if we watched these guys prefrom ippon kmite then they would be bouning around and throwing roundhouse kicks to the head and waring little red gloves to protect you from the sheer awsome force of one of there devestating punches!!

i give the prety boys 2 thumbs down and nakayama my heart.(theres no emoticon for swooning, darn!)

you won't find good application in video. the closest to good stuff are the Morio Higaonna series. but many Karate lines don't teach application, other than the obvious made-up long-range demo stuff. and the few that do, don't put it out on video.

i see alot of chatter about "long range"....but isn't that kinda the way shotokan developed? From Funakoshi's first kata, taikyoku shodan, it seems engrained in the art as a basic tenet.
A goju buddy of mine was talking to me about the matches between shotokan and goju fighters. Primarily, the goju guys used a neko dachi and shorter techniques vs the shotokan zenkutsu dachi and longer movements.
Maybe somewhere along these lines things got screwy and short range was lost (on these guys in the demo, i mean).

nah...fighting in cat stance is also a misnomer of Goju...more to do with Goju-Kai's heritage. Okinawan Goju uses it as just a transition ...not as a kamae.

when i trained in shorinryu i had to relearn my stances in kata. pinan 1 - 5 and pasai dai where there should have been kokustu dachi there was neko ashi dachi. zenkustu dachi was shortened up a bit but not that drastic of a change.

By the way i think unsu is a beautiful form while jitte is still my favorite.

mike

As a general rule, DO NOT try to block a kick with your arm. (Leg bones= big, arm bones= smaller.
NEVER try to block a kick with your closed hand (hand bones= smaller still). NEVER, EVER try to block a kick with your OPEN hand (a hand break is nearly guaranteed).

Unless this guy IS a walking Makiwara these blocks are BS. Often times open-handed techniques (that are interpreted incorrectly as blocks) are really grabs & pulls.

hmmm.
shotokan is all about agressive defense. I constantly block kicks with my arm...tonight in fact, I had a lil kumite with my kickboxers. One of them is a biiiig boy, 6'3" outweighing me by a good 50 lbs at least. He continued throwing this huge left mawashi keri, and I REALLY didn't want it to hit me. I saw it again, and attacked it with soto uke, punishing his shin with my superior blocking technique. I asked him later (already knowing the answer) why he stopped throwing the left kick...he confessed that the block hammered him that hard that he didn't want me to touch his leg at all.

Please don't think I'm bragging, those of you who know me know I tell you this only for the facts presented...

I don't understand why you would opt not to block kicks with the arms if you know how to block...what other options are there (for upper level attacks at least)...block with your face?

agreed if you know what you are doing then blocking kicks with arms is certianly effective, in the right situation.

Generally I like to keep arms high/middle and use my legs for low line stuff though. but thats common sense.