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#290215 - 10/02/06 09:51 PM Strange Shotokan kata
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
I dont know if this has come up before, but I came across this interesting form being performed by Kanazawa Sensei. I am familiar with most of the 26 shotokan forms but this one is new to me. It is called Nijuhachiho. Anyone have any info about it? here is a video of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uQz3zjPbFU
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#290216 - 10/03/06 02:05 AM Re: Strange Shotokan kata [Re: Chatan1979]
Mark Hill Offline
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Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Let the pendantry recommence:

It is more correctly, Nijushiho. It is the derivative of the Niseishi form taught by Aragaki Seisho. I can't remember if more esoteric Shorei Ryu-Ha like the Koshiro Ryu and Ryuei Ryu practice it.

Good because it is different - I used to have a fairly good armbar from a lapel grab (shifting bodyweight) into a headlock and elbow smash - or something like it, months since it has been performed...

Jiin is also the other bastard son of the JKA. It expands upon the throws/grappling in Heian Sandan and Jion. Strong but intricate in appliaction.
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#290217 - 10/03/06 05:04 AM Re: Strange Shotokan kata [Re: Mark Hill]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Mark,

No the kata Kanazawa is demonstrating is not Nijushiho or its Okinawn precedent Nisheishi.

Here is Nijushiho by Kanazawa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGV2aOPTC-w or an older Shotokan performance here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B2niRHnqQU

Just from watching there seem to be various styles of technique from Goju's Kurunufa as well as portions of various Crane forms. Logically I cannot say which came first, this form and then those forms or the reverse.

As regards the forms technical performance, please do not take this as a critique of Kanazawa Sensei. His performance for a gentleman of his age is outstanding.

But the performance of some of the technique series violates the standards I use, such as striking before the rear punch hits the ground. If I was using my basic technique performance standards, there is much that violates the performance I would wish to see.

On the other hand, there is a very old Okinawan tradition that public performance contain changes, and other innacuracies on purpose, so others couldn't grab your true intentions.

My basic assumption watching anything from a senior (Okianwan or Japanese) is not to assume what you're seeing it what they're really doing. It is after all just a minute or two of their time captured, and what their full intent is remains difficult to know.

BTW, this is also a very Chinese tradition that remains true to this day too.

pleasantly,
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#290218 - 10/03/06 05:19 AM Re: Strange Shotokan kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
I'm a damn fool. That's Nepai/Nipaipo basically isn't it? (I forgot to count in japanese and responded before I even watched the video - let the pendantry flagellation commence).

However - there are a lot of common themes or even sets of techniques to Nijushiho - my application is actually in there somehwere.
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#290219 - 10/03/06 08:08 AM Re: Strange Shotokan kata [Re: Mark Hill]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Well I asked one of my fellow students about this kata. She then asked her Sempai who said he thinks this kata is just a creation of Kanazawa's and that he is promoting his own system. While I knew that Kanazawa is somewhat of a Shotokan Rebel, I was not aware that he had started his own system. Is this news to anyone else?
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#290220 - 10/03/06 09:41 AM Re: Strange Shotokan kata [Re: Mark Hill]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi,

Would somebody take the time to find Shoto Ryu Nepai/Nipaipo and throw the link(s) into this discusion to allow for comparison. I'm a bit tied today.

Thanks,
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#290221 - 10/03/06 10:37 AM Re: Strange Shotokan kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

Nipaipo Shito Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8rAt5hKVDM

couldn't find a clip of Nepai, sorry. To'on ryu also has a kata named Nepai...it would be interesting to compare that and Shito-ryu's version.

as far as 'strange shotokan kata'...after reading this, I wouldn't be surprized if you see more popping up in the near future.
http://www.karatethejapaneseway.com/kara...7917232ad007007

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#290222 - 10/03/06 08:31 PM Re: Strange Shotokan kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Interesting...some say it has many elements of Nepai and Kururunfa in it...but don't like it's performance.

If the application is good, who cares?

Reminds me of the debate over whether Ron Lindsay is legit with white crane (a classic between Matsumura Seito Bryan and Lindsay's detractors).

It's no big deal I say. The Okinawans made up kata, and the Shaolin forms were made up by a human one day, a long time ago...
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