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#289802 - 10/07/06 09:16 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Obviously this all comes down to the individual and how he or she trains. The more hardcore an individual is, the harder he will tend to push himself.

However, the vast majority of people starting out in martial arts are not hardcore. I think that's safe to say. I mean, how many people on average, drop out of training before they even reach black belt level? Quite a bit I'd wager to say.

That isn't to say that boxing doesn't lose people due to attrition, but I would say that most of the people going into boxing are somewhat mentally tougher to begin with because they know in advance that it's tough. After that, those who drop out are often a smaller percentage. Those that stay are already some seriously tough invididuals who can both soak up punishment as well as dish it out.

I'm not discrediting karate-ka or their work ethic and toughness. I'm just looking at the folks on average and, the typical training regimen. Most karate-ka have so much more on their plates than simple, basic fight training.

Then it comes down to how well the karate-ka is trained. Why do I STILL see a lot of karate-ka (and former karate-ka) who come into my gym with such p1ss-poor boxing defense? I have trained with plenty of karate and TKD guys over the years who despite having several years of training under their belts, STILL could not even defend from a simple JAB!!! I am not making this up. Does that happen with guys who have boxed? Absolutely NOT! They learn to deal with a jab in their first WEEK in boxing.

Otherwise, the karate-ka that I have trained with who've supplemented their training with boxing have done quite well.



-John

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#289803 - 10/08/06 05:10 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:




I'm not discrediting karate-ka or their work ethic and toughness. I'm just looking at the folks on average and, the typical training regimen. Most karate-ka have so much more on their plates than simple, basic fight training.

Then it comes down to how well the karate-ka is trained. Why do I STILL see a lot of karate-ka (and former karate-ka) who come into my gym with such p1ss-poor boxing defense? -John




I think that is down to the karate ka and how they trained and what they used . Not down to the training methods available in karate. Like I said somewhere I think it comes down to the individual. The same can be said here
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3451193314984597656&q=Chuck+Liddell

Where is Titos defence?

This guy doesnt have a defence.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2471286240673428878&q=boxing

The last punch thrown here the guy throws a punch no cover, chin held high and wonders why he got countered and his jaw broke.

The other punches/ use of the forearm that leads to this I wont describe. Good referee positioning though!

.Boxing has good defence techniques.This guy didnt use them.


I think again it is down to the individual.
I think it happens in all combat sports


Edited by ANDY44 (10/08/06 05:43 AM)

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#289804 - 10/08/06 05:35 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Quote:

Also, from day one they are working on ten techniques, max. That is there complete offensive training. It gives them way more time to specialize and train what they do. The training will come faster to them than a karateka. The average Karateka, learns about three stances, two to three punches, a couple of kicks, and a kata. Then he will study those things for two or three months on the average until he ranks up and learns new material. From the begining a boxers plan is laid out for him. No mysterious kata to try and decipher.
When he spars it is intense. It is not stop and go such as one or two step sparring. Or point sparring. And its done in rounds of three to five minutes. This way the stamina is truly affected and strengthens.

Also he has coaching between rounds. So does his opponent. This way he automatically knows his faults and can attempt to fix or work around them. This is rarely done in dojos. Mostly they yell to you from the sidelines at best, which is inaffective to say the least. The karateka has the tools, he doesnt have the experience because his training is flawed.





Chen-Zen - If you train hard its just like a boxer or I've wrestled and wrestlers even trainer harder then boxers. Or just as hard doing different things. But at a certain level you should be able to train as hard as any serious fighter!!

I'm at these levels you don't practice Kata, maybe bunkia and apply them but not Kata in a meet that is used as a common ground. Usually at these meets you are testing and sharping already formed skills. The foundation is already set, usually in these meets you have a corner person just like boxing or its the all out 1-3 minute brawls were anythings goes standing,grappling and groundfighting if you want, you go full out and as fast as you can. Let me tell you, boxers don't stay standing long in these meets, and they learn to fight on their knees and get back up FAST!!!

We keep seeing Karate at its basic level, sure a place that trains you to compete will do it faster because thats all they do. But with both skilled prepared, karate or boxer the learnin curve is smaller for Karate guy. They expect the unexpected. Boxers are ready for the power factor and fittness and can absorb what they are use to. But are shocked by what they don't suspect.

Boxing is good but its limited, Karate preparation is baby gloved and then turns tough because its tuned for the masses not to produce gladiators/modern boxers. Or people that may make their living in the ring.

Both skilled I'd take Karate. Boxers are prepared for serious conflicts above the waist but they are limited in range expectation.

I agree with Andy44.




Agreed Neko
How are you ?

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#289805 - 10/08/06 09:07 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Andy44
Quote:

I think that is down to the karate ka and how they trained and what they used . Not down to the training methods available in karate.




I disagree completely. You can never convince me of that in a million YEARS! It would be one thing if I didn't KNOW how karate is often trained, but I DO. I've DONE that type of training and I have done boxing training and to say that there is no difference is ludicrous. Which is what you're basically implying.

Those differences are HUGE man. Boxing training has you working on fight training. Much of ones time with karate training is wasted on ritualistic practice -- like KATA and other nonsense (imo).


Quote:


Like I said somewhere I think it comes down to the individual. The same can be said here
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3451193314984597656&q=Chuck+Liddell

Where is Titos defence?






Tito was defending himself well for a bit there. But you really aren't supposed to stand there and become a human heavy bag. It's interesting that you took one section from one fight of his to analyze a breakdown in his overall excellent striking defense.

The one thing he didn't do (and no one other than Tito understands why) is move into the clinch as those shots were being fired.


You should go and check out videos of Fred Ettish fighting Johnny Rhoades (basically a YMCA trained boxer vs. a 6th degree black belt). See what you think.



Quote:


This guy doesnt have a defence.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2471286240673428878&q=boxing

The last punch thrown here the guy throws a punch no cover, chin held high and wonders why he got countered and his jaw broke.





People can and do forget fundamentals. People can and do make mistakes. They can totally omit key basics of a sound delivery system. That doesn't make the delivery system bad -- only the fighter making use of it.

I'd still rather train with my hands up high like a boxer than at my hip - wouldn't you?




Quote:


I think again it is down to the individual.
I think it happens in all combat sports






"IT" would happen even MORE often if you got people to fight with their hands down by the sides or by their hip, doing a lot of lead arm blocking where the elbow moved away from the side of the torso. There are better and worse ways of teaching and training people. Nothing is foolproof, especially to a talented fool.



Neko456 wrote
Quote:


Both skilled I'd take Karate. Boxers are prepared for serious conflicts above the waist but they are limited in range expectation.







Lets not put boxers into a "box" anymore than you'd want to have karate-ka put into a box. The individual who trains boxing as part of his MMA practice will NOT be limited in range expectation. There is this tendency to think that all boxers won't be expecting kicks. What about kickboxers?

Again, it's a limited argument because ultimately, the individual determines his own fate by his training methods. But I would say this: Drive by your local McDojo and watch training. Then drive to your local boxing gym. Check out the differences. It's night and day.


-John

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#289806 - 10/08/06 11:25 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
JKOGAS

"much of karate time is wasted on ritualitsic nonsense like kata. "

(not an exact quote--but accurate in terms of content and intent)

And here we go again.

I'm SOOOOOOOO glad that so many people have worked so hard over the years on this site to try and cut down on the "bashing" thing.

And here I thought we might have been wasting out time.

Sheesh.


Edited by cxt (10/08/06 11:32 AM)

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#289807 - 10/08/06 12:28 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Andy44
Quote:
Quote:



I think that is down to the karate ka and how they trained and what they used . Not down to the training methods available in karate.






Quote:


I disagree completely. You can never convince me of that in a million YEARS! It would be one thing if I didn't KNOW how karate is often trained, but I DO. I've DONE that type of training and I have done boxing training and to say that there is no difference is ludicrous. Which is what you're basically implying.




Nope I didnít imply that .What I said was I think that is down to the karate ka and how they trained and what they used . Not down to the training methods available in karate.
In other words there are good defence/offence methods in karate. Just because as you stated certain karate ka didnt use them and couldnít defend against a jab that doesnít mean to say the techniques/training methods donít exist.
Quote:


Those differences are HUGE man. Boxing training has you working on fight training.



Boxing training should be working on fight training but if you look at the vidio I posted you will see that one certain boxer forgot the basics. Keep the chin down and to punch with the chin tucked away etc etc. Those techniques are taught in boxing at a basic level. He was more than likely the same as your karate ka who didnít apply their basics when as you say they couldnít defend from a basic jab. Again it is in the methods of karate and boxing but seemingly neither applied them. Again I still think on that subject it is down to the karate ka and how they trained and what they used . Not down to the training methods available in karate.

Quote:


Much of ones time with karate training is wasted on ritualistic practice -- like KATA and other nonsense (imo).




Oohh John. Ritualistic practice? Kata? Mmmm. Well I must say in a way you might think you are correct depending on who you train kata with. I am no expert on kata and more than likely there are others who could argue this point better than I can . Regards Kata application I have only recently began re studying kata. But from the techniques that I have seen I want to know.





Quote:



Like I said somewhere I think it comes down to the individual. The same can be said here
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3451193314984597656&q=Chuck+Liddell

Where is Titos defence?







Quote:



Tito was defending himself well for a bit there. But you really aren't supposed to stand there and become a human heavy bag. It's interesting that you took one section from one fight of his to analyze a breakdown in his overall excellent striking defense.

The one thing he didn't do (and no one other than Tito understands why) is move into the clinch as those shots were being fired.


You should go and check out videos of Fred Ettish fighting Johnny Rhoades (basically a YMCA trained boxer vs. a 6th degree black belt). See what you think.




I will look at the two fighters.
John it only takes one breakdown in anything to lose. Personaly I think he(Tito) perhaps was stunned.but I havent seen the whole fight.
But either way not taking it away from Tito. I think he is a great fighter but like I said I think it comes down to the individual not to much the ďstyleĒ



Quote:



This guy doesnt have a defence.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2471286240673428878&q=boxing

The last punch thrown here the guy throws a punch no cover, chin held high and wonders why he got countered and his jaw broke.







Quote:


People can and do forget fundamentals. People can and do make mistakes. They can totally omit key basics of a sound delivery system.




Yes they can and they do. Some times when I study fighters I wonder if they were ever taught the basics as in the chin down.

Quote:


That doesn't make the delivery system bad -- only the fighter making use of it.




Agreed. I think it is down to the individual.
Quote:


I'd still rather train with my hands up high like a boxer than at my hip - wouldn't you?





I agree but Im afraid the top karate ka I observe donít fight with their hands on their hips.
And some boxers did fight and indeed still do fight with their hands low and then they got caught. So again I think again it is down to the individual.






Quote:



"IT" would happen even MORE often if you got people to fight with their hands down by the sides or by their hip, doing a lot of lead arm blocking where the elbow moved away from the side of the torso. There are better and worse ways of teaching and training people. Nothing is foolproof, especially to a talented fool.





John that can apply to any combat sport or street fight not just karate or boxing.
I wouldnít consider having my hands at the side when competition fighting or in a self defence scenario except in one particuler moment before it got in to the physical part of a self defence scenario.
Regards the talented fool. I could put that label on to any amount of fighters but I wont.
Again as far as I am concerned then it is down to the individual.
A horse can be lead to water but not made to drink.








Quote:



Again, it's a limited argument because ultimately, the individual determines his own fate by his training methods. But I would say this: Drive by your local McDojo and watch training. Then drive to your local boxing gym. Check out the differences. It's night and day.





John it would depend on the dojo and the boxing gym. Like anything else there is good and could be better.
Im not to sure where you did your karate training? But I think I can empathise with your karate situation. Might be the same as one of the reasons I am re studying kata. But that is a different story.



John. You make a lot of sense.

Thanks
Andy

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#289808 - 10/08/06 12:40 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: cxt]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
m
"


Edited by ANDY44 (10/08/06 12:50 PM)

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#289809 - 10/08/06 12:44 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Andy --


My personal view is that kata is a waste of time. I really dont see where that could be considered "bashing", but some folks are hyper sensitive.

Kata is a choreographed pattern existing within a fixed footwork pattern within a fixed "circumstance". Fighting is never a fixed thing however. One doesn't equal the other - particularly when it's solo practice against the "air".

Do you sort of see the point?


-John

Top
#289810 - 10/08/06 12:51 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: cxt]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

JKOGAS

"much of karate time is wasted on ritualitsic nonsense like kata. "

(not an exact quote--but accurate in terms of content and intent)

And here we go again.

I'm SOOOOOOOO glad that so many people have worked so hard over the years on this site to try and cut down on the "bashing" thing.

And here I thought we might have been wasting out time.

Sheesh.




Hi

I can empathise with John on this point. I have recently started to re study kata application and what I am finding is although I thought that most of the applications I was taught years ago were rubbish the applications I am now seeing are not. I thought years ago that most of the then taught kata applications would not work in a self defence/fight scenario but to keep the piece I said nothing.There was very little in the way of working on different methods of power generation.I think the kata applications I am now studying would work and I am happy with. Although at the moment I am some what limited.

so I am not sure "bashing" is the correct term. More like proving techniques in Kata would work or rather the correct applications are used as they were intended?
I await the response but please who ever replies keep it on topic

Thanks


Edited by ANDY44 (10/08/06 01:38 PM)

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#289811 - 10/08/06 12:56 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Andy --


My personal view is that kata is a waste of time. I really dont see where that could be considered "bashing", but some folks are hyper sensitive.

Kata is a choreographed pattern existing within a fixed footwork pattern within a fixed "circumstance". Fighting is never a fixed thing however. One doesn't equal the other - particularly when it's solo practice against the "air".

Do you sort of see the point?


-John




Hi

I can empathise with you John on this point.I cant given my limited time spent re studying kata application prove to you a great deal about kata application. In the future I might be able to engage in a discussion.
Just maybe keep an open mind ?

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