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#289792 - 10/04/06 01:35 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: CA_Isshinryu]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I don't consider this topic moot, we are discussing how much confidence do we have in our hands and who supplement this training with boxing techniques?

Someone brought out a good point how many Karateka go to boxing gym to learn how to punch. But you got to ask how many ex-boxers find themself in Karate clubs to learn how to defend themselves. Every boxer is not Mike Tyson or Floyd Mayweather most are journeman and train just to train or quit because its too hard. I learned how to punch in gloves while boxing its different then punching bare fisted, some other things too but basicailly how to hit hard in gloves.

The question is not what you could do against a boxer? Its who do you feel has the best hands technique for streetfighting? I say Karate but Boxing if in gloves and limited to the 6-8 punches that they do.

Not that boxing ain't effective, it is. Its just my intent is different on the street, everybody THINK they can box.

Its a difference in knowing you can, the same with Karate. Time in training.


Edited by Neko456 (10/04/06 01:43 PM)
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#289793 - 10/05/06 03:11 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
From a striking point of view I give it to the boxer. Sure some of the from third kyu up may show you better skills and train and spar harder, but a boxer has been doing it FROM DAY ONE of his training. My first day of boxing I was in the ring, so that the people I was working with were able t see what I could do, and also what i needed work in. A lot harder than any first day at the dojo I ever had.

Also, from day one they are working on ten techniques, max. That is there complete offensive training. It gives them way more time to specialize and train what they do. The training will come faster to them than a karateka. The average Karateka, learns about three stances, two to three punches, a couple of kicks, and a kata. Then he will study those things for two or three months on the average until he ranks up and learns new material. From the begining a boxers plan is laid out for him. No mysterious kata to try and decipher.
When he spars it is intense. It is not stop and go such as one or two step sparring. Or point sparring. And its done in rounds of three to five minutes. This way the stamina is truly affected and strengthens.

Also he has coaching between rounds. So does his opponent. This way he automatically knows his faults and can attempt to fix or work around them. This is rarely done in dojos. Mostly they yell to you from the sidelines at best, which is inaffective to say the least. The karateka has the tools, he doesnt have the experience because his training is flawed.
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#289794 - 10/05/06 10:32 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Chen,
You are generalizing. If I'm teaching you,we'll be gloving up just as soon as you get a small grasp of the basics. Still not day one,but isn't a better idea to teach them how to hit first?
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#289795 - 10/05/06 12:30 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
TheFinalOption Offline
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Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
Both Chen and Brian have good points here. Personally, I think a brief training period for the basics should come before all out sparring. But not an especially long one- because sparring can provide a real, tangible motivation to improve your form, speed and strength, if for no other reason than to reduce your injuries at the end of the day. That said, boxers generally have more of this motivation. But it can't be said that certain martial artists don't have plenty of it too.
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#289796 - 10/05/06 11:40 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sure I am Brian, Just a little.
And sure its good to learn to hit before you fight, but how many different ways must you learn to hit befor you can fight? Why not just a handfull? Theres more techniques in your average white belt curriculum than in all of boxing. Therefore, generally speaking, these guys will have fine tuned their tolls quicker and likely, better.

To me the real experience isnt in the kata or forms but in the application against resistance. This is when you find what works for you, what you need to improve on, and how to fine tune what you already have a grasp of. A straight and properly executed technique isnt always the best move.

Good discussion.
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#289797 - 10/06/06 05:31 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:




The karateka has the tools, he doesnt have the experience because his training is flawed.

And sure its good to learn to hit before you fight, but how many different ways must you learn to hit befor you can fight? Why not just a handfull? Theres more techniques in your average white belt curriculum than in all of boxing. Therefore, generally speaking, these guys will have fine tuned their tolls quicker and likely, better.

To me the real experience isnt in the kata or forms but in the application against resistance. This is when you find what works for you, what you need to improve on, and how to fine tune what you already have a grasp of. A straight and properly executed technique isnt always the best move









Good points Chen Zen. Sounds like you have good boxing trainers. Given what you have said I can see the point of your argument about boxing.

But;
It seems to keep coming back to the type of training again and again. Perhaps the karate schools you have attended have toned down the techniques or donít use/ practice a lot of the techniques available in karate. I donít know.


http://www3.baylor.edu/BUKarate/articles/forgotten.htm

The upper cut (ura zuki) is found in Heian Godan, Bassai Dai, Seiinchin, and several other kata ... Black Belt Magazine - January 1993

I am not sure if that link is still running but it states that punches like the uppercut etc exist in kata.
It might be how they interpret the kata. From my point of view one of the things taught in kata is how to counter attack a strike by attacking the limbs. Head cranks, throws etc.


Two examples of why I think karate training benefits boxing training.
In a competative fight or a self defence scenario a person say throws a straight right ? Reverse punch?
And it doesnt connect? then what? One option is;
Open the hand grab the neck and pull the guy on to a knee strike and continue with other techniques.
Miss with a right hook? One option is;.
Follow through with an elbow and continue with other techniques.


Both can be used by a boxer or a karate ka in a self defence scenario. Some one who only trains in competitive gloved boxing would have to do additional training to know those techniques.


So again my point is training in boxing and karate benefit each other.



Just a small point.Years ago some karate competitions were fought along the same lines as the vidios.
You will have to draw your own conclusions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuOWzhcRh48&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4XlcFA1VJA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ox1Tore9nw&search=Urquidez%20Parker%20Elvis
Good listening!!



Edited by ANDY44 (10/06/06 07:13 AM)

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#289798 - 10/06/06 05:51 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Of course boxing and karate compliment each other. If you're doing more contact stuff early on in karate, obviously that's giong to benefit you.

Andy44 asked how would a boxer know these other tools are available. Andy, you're assuming that a boxer is simply a competitive ("sport" -- I hate that word) boxer. It's never good to assume that a boxer doesn't train other things.


-John

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#289799 - 10/06/06 06:05 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Of course boxing and karate compliment each other. If you're doing more contact stuff early on in karate, obviously that's giong to benefit you.

Andy44 asked how would a boxer know these other tools are available. Andy, you're assuming that a boxer is simply a competitive ("sport" -- I hate that word) boxer. It's never good to assume that a boxer doesn't train other things.


-John




Its the way I wrote it John. Hope that is a bit clearer.
I have observed to many bare knuckle boxing fights by gypsy's to assume boxing is just a competitive gloved sport.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/series2/bare_knuckle_fighting.shtml

http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/0506/three.htm



Edited by ANDY44 (10/06/06 07:17 AM)

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#289800 - 10/06/06 12:52 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Also, from day one they are working on ten techniques, max. That is there complete offensive training. It gives them way more time to specialize and train what they do. The training will come faster to them than a karateka. The average Karateka, learns about three stances, two to three punches, a couple of kicks, and a kata. Then he will study those things for two or three months on the average until he ranks up and learns new material. From the begining a boxers plan is laid out for him. No mysterious kata to try and decipher.
When he spars it is intense. It is not stop and go such as one or two step sparring. Or point sparring. And its done in rounds of three to five minutes. This way the stamina is truly affected and strengthens.

Also he has coaching between rounds. So does his opponent. This way he automatically knows his faults and can attempt to fix or work around them. This is rarely done in dojos. Mostly they yell to you from the sidelines at best, which is inaffective to say the least. The karateka has the tools, he doesnt have the experience because his training is flawed.





Chen-Zen - If you train hard its just like a boxer or I've wrestled and wrestlers even trainer harder then boxers. Or just as hard doing different things. But at a certain level you should be able to train as hard as any serious fighter!!

I'm at these levels you don't practice Kata, maybe bunkia and apply them but not Kata in a meet that is used as a common ground. Usually at these meets you are testing and sharping already formed skills. The foundation is already set, usually in these meets you have a corner person just like boxing or its the all out 1-3 minute brawls were anythings goes standing,grappling and groundfighting if you want, you go full out and as fast as you can. Let me tell you, boxers don't stay standing long in these meets, and they learn to fight on their knees and get back up FAST!!!

We keep seeing Karate at its basic level, sure a place that trains you to compete will do it faster because thats all they do. But with both skilled prepared, karate or boxer the learnin curve is smaller for Karate guy. They expect the unexpected. Boxers are ready for the power factor and fittness and can absorb what they are use to. But are shocked by what they don't suspect.

Boxing is good but its limited, Karate preparation is baby gloved and then turns tough because its tuned for the masses not to produce gladiators/modern boxers. Or people that may make their living in the ring.

Both skilled I'd take Karate. Boxers are prepared for serious conflicts above the waist but they are limited in range expectation.

I agree with Andy44.


Edited by Neko456 (10/06/06 12:57 PM)
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#289801 - 10/07/06 04:59 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sure the karateka will become better as he trains longer, but eventually thats going to peak out, the falter. As will the boxer. He also will improve, peak, and falter. The question for me then becomes" who reaches their peak faster?" To me thats the boxer. He doesnt have to spend those initial years going through the kiddie stuff to get to the good techniques. Thats why karate, and other traditional arts training is flawed, in my opinion. And understandably so. With the way people sling lawsuits around, its no wonder Many dojo's take their time.

Also, I think the boxer can take more abuse. He has been punched alot. He likely will have as good or better footwork than the karateka. He will be able to slip, bob and weave as well which arent things often associated with traditional arts such as TKD or Karate Do. In a strictly waist up situation he has the advantage. Now being in a MMA situation, then the playing feild levels as the boxer likely trains kicking and grappling less. But, the boxer has two things in his favor. The punch is faster than the kick and to grapple with him you have to get past his punch and get to him first. So perhaps the karateka may not have any leverage over the boxer.
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