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#289742 - 09/29/06 03:59 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: butterfly]
Happy Birthday BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Neko and Matt,

I am going to qualify this one. I voted boxing, since some of the best karate-ka I know had boxing experience that informed their karate strikes. I cannot say that for many of the karate-ka that I have encountered who did not have formative use in harder contact with the strikes they were training.

No bash stylistically, btw. Just stating that it's not what you call it, it's how you train it and use it.




I voted boxing because of the way I see traditional stylist train vs. the way boxers train,ofcourse this isn't universal. Depends on the training,yawn........
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#289743 - 09/29/06 04:16 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Would go with boxing, because it has simple yet highly effective footwork & it's easier to throw multiple shots from. You don't want to bank on one shot doing it for you. I also learnt far more defenses against punches to the head in boxing than I did in karate. Just my experience. Will admit my time in boxing vastly outweighs my time in karate though, so that maybe explains it.
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#289744 - 09/29/06 04:43 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Prizewriter]
kensai1 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 52
Loc: Ohio
Quote:

Would go with boxing, because it has simple yet highly effective footwork & it's easier to throw multiple shots from. You don't want to bank on one shot doing it for you.




it sounds like you have more experience at boxing then i do prize. i only boxed for 6 months in the army. but in karate we learn tai sabaki. which is body movement. attack block, attack block simultaneously, attacking and countering continuously. it can almost look like a dance but having lack of control can hurt you. its not one step or two step sparring sparring.

Quote:

I also learnt far more defenses against punches to the head in boxing than I did in karate.




when i boxed it was a lot of bob and weave with some hand blocking. i prefer a good solid block and attack at the same time. using different types of blocks and strikes as the situation permits. oh and nothing is like a good solid kia to boot.

mike
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#289745 - 09/29/06 05:20 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: kensai1]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
All valid points my theroy is based on sparring and fighting, using both system, run this drill. In a sparring setting, hold your guards up high and walk down your oppoent try it in gloves under boxing rules try it out of gloves boxing nothing really changes bc mindset.

Then try it using Karate rules bare fisted, I agree boxers have a efficient method of delivery and sure a swift boxer can give angles a get around a high guard.

But would he think to punch the groin, or get to your back and strike the spine or top of the head, would he trap the high guard and sweep or elbow the rib cage, or in rigdehand fashion hit you in back of your head or neck. A high guards asking for my favorite trap the guard hand and grab the grion uproot and finish.

Training hard is the key most boxers train hard, some Karatemen do to. Intent is what separates the two. With same hard training Karate hands I favor.

Which hand system would provide a weaker older person the best chance to stop a bigger man without hurt their hands, a palm heel or a hook punch? A finger eye slash/gouge or a jab to the face or eye.

The statement that you don't see knifehand strikes in a fight?? You don't see them maybe because they immediately turn into grabs or pulls!! And when I have seen them they end or setup a end to a fight.

Intent again is key here with all things being equal in training. Of course a combination of these hand system would be optimal. I've boxed and never thought that Karate should not flow, 1 punch Karate is sport Karate. Just like looking for 1 big punch in boxing, you got to let it your hands go by flowing, or it will never happen.

But if you train only to wing punches or box, you will punch at the Guard instead of around it. Instead of hit him with your shoulder to his ribs and pulling his ankles out from under him. A high guard is asking for it in no rule Karate (which is what real Karate is).

Karate hands are more versitle and no rules in that they attack his whole body not just the head and upper body. I mean not that a hook to groin don't hurt its just not trained often.

Intent again, Its my intent to hit them there. But they don't feel it long because their spine and back of the head is hurting now. All are targets not train in boxing unless modified.


Edited by Neko456 (09/29/06 05:24 PM)
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#289746 - 09/29/06 07:01 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Boxing.

I have to look at how people train in boxing vs. how the lion's share of karateka seem to train. Boxers usually end up being the (vastly) MORE SKILLED when it comes to punching. Thats the bottom line.

Isn't that what we're really voting on here? Or are you placing your vote merely on "potential".


-John

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#289747 - 09/29/06 07:10 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Happy Birthday BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Punching yes,striking no.
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#289748 - 09/29/06 07:44 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Lol!


Brian, I know what you're trying to say, but I still believe you're talking about potential vs. skill.

That's a pretty big difference bro.



-John

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#289749 - 09/30/06 12:43 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
think of this as mario cart , boxing is a little car with good acceleration and bad top speed and karate is a car with low acceleration and high top speed. Boxing gets you better quicker, but in the long run karate beats it. (UBERSOME ANALOGY) but yeah boxing is just punches, thats it, karate is punches kicks grappling throws holds etc.
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#289750 - 09/30/06 09:10 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: crablord]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
This is another "style vs. style" debate in a lot of ways. If a karateka supplements his training with boxing and does a lot of full contact sparring (like a boxer), he'll develop greater skill than the karateka that doesn't. If the boxer trains to eye jab, palm heel, open hand slapping/cuffing, hammer fists, adding knee strikes, etc., he is going to develop more street applicable tools to compliment his already formidable game.

Mind you, this discussion is about "hands". So we're really not adding in a lot of other tools. As far as pure hands go, nothing will beat boxing training. Often what happens is, a karateka will supplement his work with boxing-style training. That isnít ďtraditionalĒ karate as far as I understand however. The ability to deliver, the timing, distancing, evasiveness of a good boxer is something often unparalleled. This isnít limited to just boxing however just as eye jabs, elbows, arm wrenching, head butts and low blows arenít limited to ďstreetĒ arts (wait a minute, those tactics already EXIST in boxing).

The way I see things is a little different than most. I see boxing as an "art" that a lot of artists just happen to compete in. Many people see this as a black and white issue. I train boxing and have for a long time. I use the delivery system of boxing for my street and MMA approach, to which I add my clinch (which is fundamentally different than is a boxing clinch) and the ground game of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. That is unlike a lot of professional boxers (though not all).

Bottom line is, I think we need to see boxing as more than just the punches that a boxer delivers. Itís also his footwork, defense, evasiveness and timing that sets him apart from his martial arts counterparts. The defense a boxer trains is fundamentally different than what a karateka often learns as is that footwork and everything else. Again, this isnít necessarily limited to boxing, but Iím sure you see my point.


-John

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#289751 - 09/30/06 09:45 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
You know if I ever go against another boxer in mma the first thing I will do will to grab him. What can a boxer do if hes in grappling position? you have to think about these things
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