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#289732 - 09/29/06 12:07 PM Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll.
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
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Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. How many believe and train that boxing hands are better then Karate hands in the street?

I believe that boxing hands are better then Karate hands in gloved sparring using the basic 5-6 punches, but not in the street.

If my intent is to injury or end a fight quickly, Karate hands are better, target selection, use of entire body and control.

How many work the bags with different hand formations, elbow, forearms, shoulders, hips, knees and head butts??? You fight how you train.

No wrong or right just a poll?
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#289733 - 09/29/06 12:12 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
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Which technique?
Boxing hands or karate hands for street defense?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 09/29/06 12:12 PM
View the results of this poll.
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#289734 - 09/29/06 12:28 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: MattJ]
butterfly Offline
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Neko and Matt,

I am going to qualify this one. I voted boxing, since some of the best karate-ka I know had boxing experience that informed their karate strikes. I cannot say that for many of the karate-ka that I have encountered who did not have formative use in harder contact with the strikes they were training.

No bash stylistically, btw. Just stating that it's not what you call it, it's how you train it and use it.

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#289735 - 09/29/06 12:32 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: butterfly]
crablord Offline
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Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Boxing ftw (edit) doesnt mean boxing is the best, take a boxers hands out and hes gone.


Edited by crablord (09/29/06 12:33 PM)
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#289736 - 09/29/06 12:39 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
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I actually voted for karate, but with the same understanding as Brad - must be trained with contact and intent. Boxers do this regularly, and karate folk that do not are at a disadvantage. Greater technical repetoire tilted my vote in this case, assuming similar training.
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#289737 - 09/29/06 01:01 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: MattJ]
Supremor Offline
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I voted for boxing for the same reasons as butterfly. Proper training makes effective fighting, and boxers do a whole lot of it. If a karate guy does this, then fine, but it is less common in my experience.

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#289738 - 09/29/06 01:07 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: MattJ]
butterfly Offline
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Matt,

Understandable and this is a so-so qustion for me. But my consideration has come from a couple of thoughts. In every "real" fight I have viewed, I have never seen a shuto applied, a crane head anything, or a finger strike. So the economy of repertoire I do not see as necessarily a disadvantage.

Now, if you drop in a Muay Thai fighter who throws fists and elbows but who still doesn't have all the other karate extras and then compare him to a karate player...does that change the equation?

Perhaps not, but by the argument presented so far, it has been based on advantage of multiple weapons (and their use). My criticism would be that less is more if you used more often those limited-in-number of techniques as long as they were trained more realistically.

Oh well, just hypotheticals in any case.

-B

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#289739 - 09/29/06 01:09 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: MattJ]
Spade Offline
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Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
I'm thinking karate, mainly because of karate chop fuu to the neck!
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#289740 - 09/29/06 01:40 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Spade]
kensai1 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 52
Loc: Ohio
OUS!!

this is one i can actually sink my teeth into a bit. i was on the all army boxing team down in panama.

i voted karate, in karate we focus on strengthening our fist and wrists. we do knuckle push, we hit a makiwara, at our beginning levels our sensei comes around and re-positions our fist and wrist so that we have good technique. also the post was hands. we work on many different stiking techniques other then just throwing a punch. plus we focus on our tandem and generate power from our hips when striking.

now into boxing, if we want to get into conditioning i can elaborate on that but the post was for who's hands are better. in boxing we did shadow boxing, bag work and sparring. you are really not training on how to make a proper fist or how to keep your wrists straight. we used hand wraps for most our training and bag gloves for protecting our hand and fingers.

again this was for hands not conditioning of the body. was i in the best shape of my life when i boxed, yes. but we trained our bodies hard all day pretty much

just my 2 cents

mike
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#289741 - 09/29/06 01:51 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
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Brad -

I agree with your post totally. I was thinking more along the lines of standard punches + elbows + forearms + heel palms + hammerfists, etc. Not so much the crane strikes and handswords. But I agree that greater repetoire dos not neccessarily mean better fighter or whatever. Just a mathematical observation on my part.
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#289742 - 09/29/06 03:59 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: butterfly]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

Neko and Matt,

I am going to qualify this one. I voted boxing, since some of the best karate-ka I know had boxing experience that informed their karate strikes. I cannot say that for many of the karate-ka that I have encountered who did not have formative use in harder contact with the strikes they were training.

No bash stylistically, btw. Just stating that it's not what you call it, it's how you train it and use it.




I voted boxing because of the way I see traditional stylist train vs. the way boxers train,ofcourse this isn't universal. Depends on the training,yawn........
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#289743 - 09/29/06 04:16 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Would go with boxing, because it has simple yet highly effective footwork & it's easier to throw multiple shots from. You don't want to bank on one shot doing it for you. I also learnt far more defenses against punches to the head in boxing than I did in karate. Just my experience. Will admit my time in boxing vastly outweighs my time in karate though, so that maybe explains it.
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#289744 - 09/29/06 04:43 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Prizewriter]
kensai1 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 52
Loc: Ohio
Quote:

Would go with boxing, because it has simple yet highly effective footwork & it's easier to throw multiple shots from. You don't want to bank on one shot doing it for you.




it sounds like you have more experience at boxing then i do prize. i only boxed for 6 months in the army. but in karate we learn tai sabaki. which is body movement. attack block, attack block simultaneously, attacking and countering continuously. it can almost look like a dance but having lack of control can hurt you. its not one step or two step sparring sparring.

Quote:

I also learnt far more defenses against punches to the head in boxing than I did in karate.




when i boxed it was a lot of bob and weave with some hand blocking. i prefer a good solid block and attack at the same time. using different types of blocks and strikes as the situation permits. oh and nothing is like a good solid kia to boot.

mike
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#289745 - 09/29/06 05:20 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: kensai1]
Neko456 Offline
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Posts: 3260
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All valid points my theroy is based on sparring and fighting, using both system, run this drill. In a sparring setting, hold your guards up high and walk down your oppoent try it in gloves under boxing rules try it out of gloves boxing nothing really changes bc mindset.

Then try it using Karate rules bare fisted, I agree boxers have a efficient method of delivery and sure a swift boxer can give angles a get around a high guard.

But would he think to punch the groin, or get to your back and strike the spine or top of the head, would he trap the high guard and sweep or elbow the rib cage, or in rigdehand fashion hit you in back of your head or neck. A high guards asking for my favorite trap the guard hand and grab the grion uproot and finish.

Training hard is the key most boxers train hard, some Karatemen do to. Intent is what separates the two. With same hard training Karate hands I favor.

Which hand system would provide a weaker older person the best chance to stop a bigger man without hurt their hands, a palm heel or a hook punch? A finger eye slash/gouge or a jab to the face or eye.

The statement that you don't see knifehand strikes in a fight?? You don't see them maybe because they immediately turn into grabs or pulls!! And when I have seen them they end or setup a end to a fight.

Intent again is key here with all things being equal in training. Of course a combination of these hand system would be optimal. I've boxed and never thought that Karate should not flow, 1 punch Karate is sport Karate. Just like looking for 1 big punch in boxing, you got to let it your hands go by flowing, or it will never happen.

But if you train only to wing punches or box, you will punch at the Guard instead of around it. Instead of hit him with your shoulder to his ribs and pulling his ankles out from under him. A high guard is asking for it in no rule Karate (which is what real Karate is).

Karate hands are more versitle and no rules in that they attack his whole body not just the head and upper body. I mean not that a hook to groin don't hurt its just not trained often.

Intent again, Its my intent to hit them there. But they don't feel it long because their spine and back of the head is hurting now. All are targets not train in boxing unless modified.


Edited by Neko456 (09/29/06 05:24 PM)
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#289746 - 09/29/06 07:01 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Boxing.

I have to look at how people train in boxing vs. how the lion's share of karateka seem to train. Boxers usually end up being the (vastly) MORE SKILLED when it comes to punching. Thats the bottom line.

Isn't that what we're really voting on here? Or are you placing your vote merely on "potential".


-John

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#289747 - 09/29/06 07:10 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Punching yes,striking no.
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#289748 - 09/29/06 07:44 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
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Lol!


Brian, I know what you're trying to say, but I still believe you're talking about potential vs. skill.

That's a pretty big difference bro.



-John

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#289749 - 09/30/06 12:43 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
think of this as mario cart , boxing is a little car with good acceleration and bad top speed and karate is a car with low acceleration and high top speed. Boxing gets you better quicker, but in the long run karate beats it. (UBERSOME ANALOGY) but yeah boxing is just punches, thats it, karate is punches kicks grappling throws holds etc.
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#289750 - 09/30/06 09:10 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: crablord]
JKogas Offline
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This is another "style vs. style" debate in a lot of ways. If a karateka supplements his training with boxing and does a lot of full contact sparring (like a boxer), he'll develop greater skill than the karateka that doesn't. If the boxer trains to eye jab, palm heel, open hand slapping/cuffing, hammer fists, adding knee strikes, etc., he is going to develop more street applicable tools to compliment his already formidable game.

Mind you, this discussion is about "hands". So we're really not adding in a lot of other tools. As far as pure hands go, nothing will beat boxing training. Often what happens is, a karateka will supplement his work with boxing-style training. That isnít ďtraditionalĒ karate as far as I understand however. The ability to deliver, the timing, distancing, evasiveness of a good boxer is something often unparalleled. This isnít limited to just boxing however just as eye jabs, elbows, arm wrenching, head butts and low blows arenít limited to ďstreetĒ arts (wait a minute, those tactics already EXIST in boxing).

The way I see things is a little different than most. I see boxing as an "art" that a lot of artists just happen to compete in. Many people see this as a black and white issue. I train boxing and have for a long time. I use the delivery system of boxing for my street and MMA approach, to which I add my clinch (which is fundamentally different than is a boxing clinch) and the ground game of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. That is unlike a lot of professional boxers (though not all).

Bottom line is, I think we need to see boxing as more than just the punches that a boxer delivers. Itís also his footwork, defense, evasiveness and timing that sets him apart from his martial arts counterparts. The defense a boxer trains is fundamentally different than what a karateka often learns as is that footwork and everything else. Again, this isnít necessarily limited to boxing, but Iím sure you see my point.


-John

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#289751 - 09/30/06 09:45 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
You know if I ever go against another boxer in mma the first thing I will do will to grab him. What can a boxer do if hes in grappling position? you have to think about these things
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#289752 - 09/30/06 10:56 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: crablord]
BrianS Offline
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Ok crablord,but that wasn't the topic,lol.
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#289753 - 09/30/06 12:01 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Ditto what Brian said, its not what the topic is about.

There was an article in Black Belt magazine this year about a University in the USA that done a study on who punched harder (P4P), karateka or boxers. Am trying to find it. Anyone else knows of it let us know.
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#289754 - 09/30/06 12:31 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Prizewriter]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
yeah it is ..boxing hands vs karate hands! im giving a strategy
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#289755 - 09/30/06 01:41 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. How many believe and train that boxing hands are better then Karate hands in the street?






That is what the thread is about. You stated what you would do against a bocxer in a MMA competition. Why not just say what you would do against a karateka in a MMA tourney too? It would be just as relevant. If you want to discuss it that is cool but it would be better suited to a seperate thread. We are talking about a preferance for striking between boxing and karate for real life situations. Not how to stop a boxer in MMA comp.

To be fair think most of us on here including me have drifted a little from the threads topic, its just you really went one step to the left.


Edited by Prizewriter (09/30/06 02:05 PM)
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#289756 - 09/30/06 02:04 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Prizewriter]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
I was just making the point that even though boxers are better strikers, once their hands are out of the way theres not much they can do.
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"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#289757 - 09/30/06 03:02 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: crablord]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I was just making the point that even though boxers are better strikers, once their hands are out of the way theres not much they can do.




Which is not what this topic is about. Back on topic please.
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#289758 - 10/01/06 01:49 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Are we just talking about punches or how each use their hands and what capable in each style not modified but trained hard to be used.

This where pushing, pulling, slashing and snachting is part of karate. We train in it wheather we know it or not.

There is no doubt that boxers train semi/full contact most of the time are more capable of delievering power shots in gloves.

Out of gloves they hit hard too but they can sometimes break their hand bc the way they are trained to strike.

I think the conversation is not about just close fist striking but how each use their hands.


Edited by Neko456 (10/01/06 01:51 AM)
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#289759 - 10/01/06 03:58 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Prizewriter]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
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Quote:

Ditto what There was an article in Black Belt magazine this year about a University in the USA that done a study on who punched harder (P4P), karateka or boxers. Am trying to find it. Anyone else knows of it let us know.



I dont think it can be said that one is better than the other for use in the street. The training in karate and boxing benefit each other. Maybe if both were trained?

Interesting. I am also trying to find the survey

IN the uk there is a very large gypsy based bare knuckle boxing scene.

It would seem that when boxing years gone by decided to use gloves (Marquess of Queensberry rules (1867)) the gypsy element didnít.
Proof
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartley_Gorman

So realy they are boxers who box bare knuckle?

Simular skills except no gloves.
And some even now go from bare knuckle to pro gloved boxing.

http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/0506/three.htm




Edited by ANDY44 (10/01/06 05:17 AM)

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#289760 - 10/01/06 08:32 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
JKogas Offline
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I train with both boxing gloves and MMA gloves. You have to modify how you hit when you're not wrapping your hands (in terms of power and the duration of combos) but with or without gloves, it's still boxing. The delivery system of boxing doesn't change just because you're training with or without gloves.

If you train boxing for the purposes of self-defense which include eye strikes (with the fingers or thumbs) and open hand shots - it's still boxing.

I guess what we're looking at here comes down to whether you see this debate in terms of skill (boxer comes out on top) or potential (karate has advantage). Then it becomes a "style vs. style" thing which always sucks. As we know, the more capable person will always have the advantage.

Assuming the boxer doesn't train karate and the karateka doesn't train boxing, I'm STILL putting my money on the boxer 9 times out of 10. The boxer simply is a tougher animal. He takes punishment constantly, learning to absorb it and even more importantly, learns to dish it out. He devlops the instinctive counter punch, has incredible timing and other attributes developed for fighting. There is NO stop-action when HE spars and no one is pulling their punches.

This isn't to say that the Karateka cannot develop those same skills and attributes. On average though, this is just the simple truth.

Seeing blood in a boxing gym is a typical day at the office. Seeing it in a karate school means, "there's been an accident". Think about that. It speaks volumes.

Again, there are always exceptions to the rule. It comes down to how one trains, always. There are so many karate schools now that are so fearful of people getting hurt, being sued, students dropping out, women and children attending, etc., that they just don't train hard-core. That doesn't happen at the "East Side Gym" folks (or insert your own friendly neighborhood boxing gym here).



-John

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#289761 - 10/01/06 09:36 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:


I guess what we're looking at here comes down to whether you see this debate in terms of skill (boxer comes out on top) or potential (karate has advantage). Then it becomes a "style vs. style" thing which always sucks.




Yeah I dont care for them debates.

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#289762 - 10/01/06 12:10 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
JKogas Offline
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You mean, you don't care for 'THOSE' debates.



-John

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#289763 - 10/01/06 12:19 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
pathfinder7195 Offline
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Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Neko456
"Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. How many believe and train that boxing hands are better then Karate hands in the street?"

We are only talking about hands right? Not kicks, throws, grappling, etc?

I have to go with John on this. It's about the "delivery system" not the fist itself. I have done both boxing and MA. If we remove the hands from this entire equation, than all we are left with is body movement. I feel that boxer's train the "delivery system" of punches more effectively than MA. Boxer's focus on the "delivery system" while many MA get caught up in the several ways one can strike with their fist. What we call in kung fu a "snake strike" is nothing more than a boxer's jab with the fingertips extended out.

Maybe Neko, what also could be asked is "how many MA have gone to boxing gyms to learn punching skills compared to the number of boxer's who have gone to MA schools to learn punching skills?"

Kevin

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#289764 - 10/01/06 12:40 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: pathfinder7195]
JKogas Offline
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Loc: North Carolina
Pathfinder is SPOT ON.

This thread should be LOCKED DOWN after that post, lol.

It's really funny now that I look at the "poll results". Its telling in a lot of ways.


-John

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#289765 - 10/01/06 01:47 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
this becomes a question of stereotypical training.

strip mall karate vs. basement boxing gym. so of course the boxing trained will have better hands.

but put the top 1% against each other and it would be whoever lands one first.

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#289766 - 10/01/06 02:47 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:

You mean, you don't care for 'THOSE' debates.
-John



Well pardon My Scottish John. I dont care for those debates. You are yet again correct.

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#289767 - 10/01/06 02:54 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
JKogas Offline
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It's alright Andy. Just picking with you a bit. Lets not get off track.


-John

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#289768 - 10/01/06 02:56 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:

It's alright Andy. Just picking with you a bit. Lets not get off track.



-John






Edited by ANDY44 (10/01/06 02:56 PM)

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#289769 - 10/01/06 03:40 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
McSensei Offline
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Stop press...JKogas says something positive about karate...

"..or potential (karate has advantage)."



I must admit when I first looked at this thread I had to think in terms of all things being equal. That is why I voted for karate hands.
The argument for boxing is centered around the idea that the majority of training is more realistic in terms of contact. However it is not that realistic to practice punching (no matter how hard) with your hands all neatly wrapped up and protected by big cushions.
I personally know of a couple of boxers that have smashed their hands to pieces in real fights because of poor alignment and fist formation. Something that is taught very early on in any decent karate club.
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#289770 - 10/01/06 05:28 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: McSensei]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

Stop press...JKogas says something positive about karate...

"..or potential (karate has advantage)."







Lets not get TOO excited. The definition of "potential" is: "Capable of being but not yet in existence". The "not yet in existence" part, you might want to pay attention to.


Quote:


The argument for boxing is centered around the idea that the majority of training is more realistic in terms of contact. However it is not that realistic to practice punching (no matter how hard) with your hands all neatly wrapped up and protected by big cushions.





So what you are basically saying is that after the boxer knocks the karateka's nose through the back of his skull, he'll have to deal with a broken hand.

I can accept that. It's a fight. You deal with any injuries afterward. However, it doesn't have to mean broken hands or injuries.


Quote:


I personally know of a couple of boxers that have smashed their hands to pieces in real fights because of poor alignment and fist formation. Something that is taught very early on in any decent karate club.





Ah yes, the "karateka" is taught how to properly align the fist structure. What they are often NOT taught is how to properly defend from having that poorly aligned fist from crashing through their p.iss poor defensive structure, where it then proceeds to realign their FACIAL structure.

THAT is taught early on in any decent boxing gym.






-John

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#289771 - 10/01/06 06:03 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
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that's it John. I'm coming down there and kicking your ASS.

lol
my 'defensive structure':

http://www.chinaboard.de/en/images/smiles/punch.gif

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#289772 - 10/01/06 07:12 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Stop press...JKogas says something positive about karate...

"..or potential (karate has advantage)."







Lets not get TOO excited. The definition of "potential" is: "Capable of being but not yet in existence". The "not yet in existence" part, you might want to pay attention to.


Quote:


The argument for boxing is centered around the idea that the majority of training is more realistic in terms of contact. However it is not that realistic to practice punching (no matter how hard) with your hands all neatly wrapped up and protected by big cushions.





So what you are basically saying is that after the boxer knocks the karateka's nose through the back of his skull, he'll have to deal with a broken hand.

I can accept that. It's a fight. You deal with any injuries afterward. However, it doesn't have to mean broken hands or injuries.


Quote:


I personally know of a couple of boxers that have smashed their hands to pieces in real fights because of poor alignment and fist formation. Something that is taught very early on in any decent karate club.





Ah yes, the "karateka" is taught how to properly align the fist structure. What they are often NOT taught is how to properly defend from having that poorly aligned fist from crashing through their p.iss poor defensive structure, where it then proceeds to realign their FACIAL structure.

THAT is taught early on in any decent boxing gym.






-John



I still say that
I dont think it can be said that one is better than the other for use in the street. The training in karate and boxing benefit each other. Maybe if both were trained?

Even though that was a few hours ago. John you certainly have a way of making a debate interesting.

I am waiting for the karate ka response to come up with a defensive strategy against a boxer . I do train both so I am sitting on the fence. I think this might get to be interesting



Ding Ding round 2!


Edited by ANDY44 (10/01/06 07:14 PM)

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#289773 - 10/01/06 07:58 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
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since you are versatile and have high standards, I'd actually be interested in hearing YOUR strategy, Andy. what was the famous line from Tyson..."Everyone has a plan until they get hit."

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#289774 - 10/01/06 09:42 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chen Zen Offline
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John,

The "Theres been an accident" Line....
Man you dropped it on em there bro.

I voted for boxing because of the training differences as well. Also for time spent training. Your average karateka is in the gym once maybe twice a week.

I think the karateka has the tools to pull it off, but not the training to use them to their full advantage against a boxer.

Take the defensive shell of a boxer. Its going to be hard to slip in any kind of nerve strikes, eye gouges, chops, or grabs anywhere above the waist. Now, put them on the street, with all of their tools available, and It would be fifty fifty as to who Id put my money on. Id have to see the fighters. But most likely, its the boxer.
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Lao Tzu

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#289775 - 10/02/06 03:53 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Edited by ANDY44 (10/02/06 03:55 AM)

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#289776 - 10/02/06 03:54 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:


since you are versatile and have high standards, I'd actually be interested in hearing YOUR strategy, Andy. what was the famous line from MIKE TYSON.."Everyone has a plan until they get hit."






I did try to start a debate on another thread although the boxer pulling the head back could also be a karate ka

Quote:


Backwards, strangely enough. I don't know how he does it but if you watch a few of his matches frame-by-frame, you'll often see him at one point with his opponent's fist apparently in his face and the next frame, his opponent's fist on his chest. He somehow manages to move his head backwards 4-5 inches in a single frame. Punches which would have floored most other fighters I know hit nothing but air when used on him. It's like someone's pulling him backwards by his head, I compare it to the idea of the "whip punch" which was being discussed earlier. He throws his entire body backwards by his head and it appears to be quite effective. I certainly couldn't manage that, he must have had incredible reflexes to pull it off.







Quote:


In boxing I think that just to pull the head straight back and away from a punch against a boxer who is good at body punching and throwing hooks might not be the best idea. Also moving back in a straight line with out straight punching is another defence that might go against a boxer in a ring..







Ok Ed. To answer your question
I think it is down to the individual and the techniques the individual can use. Just because certain techniques are present and are practiced doesnít mean that individual will use them under pressure. If I did debate such topics it is would be based on looking for general mistakes made by either karate ka or a boxer or any fighter for that matter.
Not anything thought to be specific to a certain style.
Here are some .

Most fighters dont keep their chins down.Fine by me. Keep doing it.

Some fighters hit with the wrong part of their hands then complain or say it happens.

Again fine by me.

Some fighter have crap fitness
Again fine by me.



Edited by BrianS (10/03/06 12:21 PM)

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#289777 - 10/02/06 04:21 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:


Take the defensive shell of a boxer. Its going to be hard to slip in any kind of nerve strikes, eye gouges, chops, or grabs anywhere above the waist. Now, put them on the street, with all of their tools available, and It would be fifty fifty as to who Id put my money on. Id have to see the fighters. But most likely, its the boxer.




Depends on how either fighter can use their defence and strikes.
Quote:


I voted for boxing because of the training differences as well. Also for time spent training. Your average karateka is in the gym once maybe twice a week.:-[






I know boxers that only train twice a week I know karate ka that train 5 times a week. It is down to the individual.


Edited by ANDY44 (10/02/06 04:34 AM)

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#289778 - 10/03/06 12:03 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
Spade Offline
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Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
Anyone see the Chuck Liddell Vs Tito Ortize fight?


Notice how Ortize blocked Chucks punches? Neither did I.


In karate you are taught to block without boxing gloves.

In boxing, you either bob/weave or put your forearms over your chest with your gloves infront of your face.

I had a boxer once tell me "You would never find an opponening on me, I'm a boxer!" and he put his hands infront of his head as he bobbed back and forth, at which point I saw three openings to his head.

Not many boxers are trained to use a knife hand strike, or an upper cut to the throat, for that reason alone I put Karate over boxing.

Will boxers hit harder? Yes, but without boxing gloves (in my experince) they don't know what to do other then to move their head around in hopes of not getting hit.

Karate practioners will be able to preform blocks/parrys leaving an oppening for a counter hit, where a boxer would just cover up and take a blow.

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#289779 - 10/03/06 02:51 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:

since you are versatile and have high standards, I'd actually be interested in hearing YOUR strategy, Andy. what was the famous line from Tyson..."Everyone has a plan until they get hit."





Mike Tyson. Great boxer.
Yeah Buster Douglas agreed with him.
Then after that it was etc etc

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#289780 - 10/03/06 03:09 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Spade]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:

Anyone see the Chuck Liddell Vs Tito Ortize fight?


Notice how Ortize blocked Chucks punches? Neither did I.


In karate you are taught to block without boxing gloves.

In boxing, you either bob/weave or put your forearms over your chest with your gloves infront of your face.

I had a boxer once tell me "You would never find an opponening on me, I'm a boxer!" and he put his hands infront of his head as he bobbed back and forth, at which point I saw three openings to his head.

Not many boxers are trained to use a knife hand strike, or an upper cut to the throat, for that reason alone I put Karate over boxing.

Will boxers hit harder? Yes, but without boxing gloves (in my experince) they don't know what to do other then to move their head around in hopes of not getting hit.

Karate practioners will be able to preform blocks/parrys leaving an oppening for a counter hit, where a boxer would just cover up and take a blow.







http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3451193314984597656&q=Chuck+Liddell

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#289781 - 10/03/06 03:16 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:


Ah yes, the "karateka" is taught how to properly align the fist structure. What they are often NOT taught is how to properly defend from having that poorly aligned fist from crashing through their p.iss poor defensive structure, where it then proceeds to realign their FACIAL structure.

THAT is taught early on in any decent boxing gym.







Still say is down to the fighter, the individual, to work on their defence. Not styles. Like as in this guy? Not sure he did karate John?

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3451193314984597656&q=Chuck+Liddell


Edited by ANDY44 (10/03/06 03:20 AM)

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#289782 - 10/03/06 06:06 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. *DELETED* [Re: ANDY44]
crablord Offline
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Post deleted by BrianS
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#289783 - 10/03/06 08:32 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: crablord]
ken harding Offline
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I don't come in here much but I see another style v style so in the interest of doing something pointless.....

Boxing hands v karate ?

No question about it in the "hands" the most use is karate.
In practice because of the way most karate people train however the answer is boxing.

Most karate people punch air at full extension too much, have poor use of feet, don't align their bodies right, don't apply the right mindset and many have no idea of the point within the the punching action when their fist should land. This is rather a pity as it means they can't reliably hit anything! Boxers spend a great deal of time hitting things and people to develop muscle memory to do just this so then they do.

However, boxer with his gloves gets very used to using them in his defence. It's way easier to slip punches or hide behind those big red gloves that when your fists are uncovered. That said most of the time for delivery of power to target the boxer wins out because of training and mindset.

Karate hands do much more than punch though. They gouge, grab, twist lock, you hit with many different parts of them and so on. What we have now is a situation though where for lack of informed training many karate men can't hit either hard or sensitvely enough (by this I mean hitting an opponent when thier body alignment is broken).

Doubt I'll be back for another x months so that's it from me
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#289784 - 10/03/06 09:32 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:

since you are versatile and have high standards, I'd actually be interested in hearing YOUR strategy, Andy. what was the famous line from Tyson..."Everyone has a plan until they get hit."




I think that some people say the best defence is a good offence. Although it doesnít work for every body.

First, its said a jab can be defensive or offensive,
Karate has kizami zuki. Boxing has the jab . Either gloved or bare knuckle.
So the beginnings of a defensive technique might be said to start with techniques such as the jab/ kizami zuki.

Can the individual use it? that is another question

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#289785 - 10/03/06 10:04 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
Chen Zen Offline
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Are you braindamaged?!
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#289786 - 10/03/06 12:16 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
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Individually,I would put MY karate training up against your average boxer any day,and I have.

Ed stated it best. Whoever lands the first strike.
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#289787 - 10/03/06 04:43 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
TheFinalOption Offline
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Loc: Colorado
I voted Karate- but only because of the variety of strikes it trains and the lack of big cushy gloves to give you a false sense of security. That said in actuality it could go either way based on the fighters themselves.

However, that's aside from the fact that this is a pointless thread, because frankly, if any real (as in halfway intellegent) karate guy ends up fighting a boxer for whatever reason, he will use the other aspects of karate (kicks and such) as his advantage, rather than trying to go head to head with the boxer in punching. Karate focuses more on avoiding/deflecting hits, while boxing largely absorbes them. So it makes no sense for the two of them to have a boxing-style slug match in the first place, as it is a clash of mental strategies, not just technical styles.

Just my 2 cents.
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#289788 - 10/04/06 02:42 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:

Individually,I would put MY karate training up against your average boxer any day,and I have.

Ed stated it best. Whoever lands the first strike.




Agreed who ever lands the first strike capable of incapacitating the opponent or leading to further strikes that would incapacitate the opponent

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#289789 - 10/04/06 02:56 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. *DELETED* [Re: crablord]
ANDY44 Offline
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offtopic posts will be deleted


Edited by BrianS (10/04/06 08:59 AM)

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#289790 - 10/04/06 11:46 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
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Posts: 3260
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Jkogda wrote - Then it becomes a "style vs. style" thing which always sucks.

Assuming the boxer doesn't train karate and the karateka doesn't train boxing, I'm STILL putting my money on the boxer 9 times out of 10.

This isn't to say that the Karateka cannot develop those same skills and attributes. On average though, this is just the simple truth.

Again, there are always exceptions to the rule. It comes down to how one trains, always. There are so many karate schools now that are so fearful of people getting hurt, being sued, students dropping out, women and children attending, etc., that they just don't train hard-core. That doesn't happen at the "East Side Gym" folks (or insert your own friendly neighborhood boxing gym here).

Neko456 - Agreed but how can you compare the two.

I thought I posted a comment to this, no problem lets do it again. I feel it unfair to compare a Family center Karate dojo clientel 5-55 yrs old to a boxing gym 15-35 yrs old generally. For one thing the Family center is concern about injuries, its more then just fighting. But lets compare a boxing gym to a 3rd kyu up to Yodan level adult class or cross training senior class, where contact is accepted and expected. To the point of bruised ribs busted noses and lips etc.. , just like a boxing gym.

Once we trained with a guy that wanted to combine boxiing and Karate to split the rent on a place. The boxers were looking like wow, fresh meat. They even said I wouldn't mind going a couple rounds with any of you. This is off topic slightly but after watching us spar and some of our people using boxing foot work swept off their feet, in clinches thrown and stomped/struck or defending from the ground. The boxer turned toward their bags and looked away, they didn't want any of that. Saying man that sh$% is crazy. Off topic but if we fight near to full out its above what boxers deem as fair and is outside their rules.

Boxers are strong strikers, but if it is true that you are really hurt by what you don't see or can't tell is coming Karate hands are more deceptive bare fisted. Boxers punches are more powerful gloved except for spinning hammer fist and such.

Karate defense against combination hands can be questioned, but not if you train adequately against real attacks. Not just Kihon Kumite which is as its states basic training.

I've adapted the boxers hook palm down (not palm facing you)!!!, jab and upper cut.


Edited by Neko456 (10/04/06 11:50 AM)

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#289791 - 10/04/06 12:42 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
CA_Isshinryu Offline
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Boy, if I was figjting a boxer I'd probably do everything I could to kick him on the knee or groin as soon as possible. Then I'm pretty sure my hands would be better than theirs.

It's all bout using whatever tool you have that is better than what they have to respond to it. It has nothing to do with their hands being better. Just my ability to force the fight to a matchup that favors me. A fair fight is any fight I win, nothing else fits the description and I wouldn't go hand on hand with anybody if they even had close to as good as hands as I do. Karate learns to much to limit yourself to something like this.

I know your asking if Boxing hands are better but in the end that's a moot point as you wouldn't even try to find out. Your kick the boxer in the jimmies and when he fell to his knees you'd kick a super high kick to his head.. about waist high.

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#289792 - 10/04/06 01:35 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: CA_Isshinryu]
Neko456 Offline
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I don't consider this topic moot, we are discussing how much confidence do we have in our hands and who supplement this training with boxing techniques?

Someone brought out a good point how many Karateka go to boxing gym to learn how to punch. But you got to ask how many ex-boxers find themself in Karate clubs to learn how to defend themselves. Every boxer is not Mike Tyson or Floyd Mayweather most are journeman and train just to train or quit because its too hard. I learned how to punch in gloves while boxing its different then punching bare fisted, some other things too but basicailly how to hit hard in gloves.

The question is not what you could do against a boxer? Its who do you feel has the best hands technique for streetfighting? I say Karate but Boxing if in gloves and limited to the 6-8 punches that they do.

Not that boxing ain't effective, it is. Its just my intent is different on the street, everybody THINK they can box.

Its a difference in knowing you can, the same with Karate. Time in training.


Edited by Neko456 (10/04/06 01:43 PM)
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#289793 - 10/05/06 03:11 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
Chen Zen Offline
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From a striking point of view I give it to the boxer. Sure some of the from third kyu up may show you better skills and train and spar harder, but a boxer has been doing it FROM DAY ONE of his training. My first day of boxing I was in the ring, so that the people I was working with were able t see what I could do, and also what i needed work in. A lot harder than any first day at the dojo I ever had.

Also, from day one they are working on ten techniques, max. That is there complete offensive training. It gives them way more time to specialize and train what they do. The training will come faster to them than a karateka. The average Karateka, learns about three stances, two to three punches, a couple of kicks, and a kata. Then he will study those things for two or three months on the average until he ranks up and learns new material. From the begining a boxers plan is laid out for him. No mysterious kata to try and decipher.
When he spars it is intense. It is not stop and go such as one or two step sparring. Or point sparring. And its done in rounds of three to five minutes. This way the stamina is truly affected and strengthens.

Also he has coaching between rounds. So does his opponent. This way he automatically knows his faults and can attempt to fix or work around them. This is rarely done in dojos. Mostly they yell to you from the sidelines at best, which is inaffective to say the least. The karateka has the tools, he doesnt have the experience because his training is flawed.
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Lao Tzu

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#289794 - 10/05/06 10:32 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
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Chen,
You are generalizing. If I'm teaching you,we'll be gloving up just as soon as you get a small grasp of the basics. Still not day one,but isn't a better idea to teach them how to hit first?
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#289795 - 10/05/06 12:30 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
TheFinalOption Offline
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Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
Both Chen and Brian have good points here. Personally, I think a brief training period for the basics should come before all out sparring. But not an especially long one- because sparring can provide a real, tangible motivation to improve your form, speed and strength, if for no other reason than to reduce your injuries at the end of the day. That said, boxers generally have more of this motivation. But it can't be said that certain martial artists don't have plenty of it too.
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#289796 - 10/05/06 11:40 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
Chen Zen Offline
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Sure I am Brian, Just a little.
And sure its good to learn to hit before you fight, but how many different ways must you learn to hit befor you can fight? Why not just a handfull? Theres more techniques in your average white belt curriculum than in all of boxing. Therefore, generally speaking, these guys will have fine tuned their tolls quicker and likely, better.

To me the real experience isnt in the kata or forms but in the application against resistance. This is when you find what works for you, what you need to improve on, and how to fine tune what you already have a grasp of. A straight and properly executed technique isnt always the best move.

Good discussion.
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289797 - 10/06/06 05:31 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:




The karateka has the tools, he doesnt have the experience because his training is flawed.

And sure its good to learn to hit before you fight, but how many different ways must you learn to hit befor you can fight? Why not just a handfull? Theres more techniques in your average white belt curriculum than in all of boxing. Therefore, generally speaking, these guys will have fine tuned their tolls quicker and likely, better.

To me the real experience isnt in the kata or forms but in the application against resistance. This is when you find what works for you, what you need to improve on, and how to fine tune what you already have a grasp of. A straight and properly executed technique isnt always the best move









Good points Chen Zen. Sounds like you have good boxing trainers. Given what you have said I can see the point of your argument about boxing.

But;
It seems to keep coming back to the type of training again and again. Perhaps the karate schools you have attended have toned down the techniques or donít use/ practice a lot of the techniques available in karate. I donít know.


http://www3.baylor.edu/BUKarate/articles/forgotten.htm

The upper cut (ura zuki) is found in Heian Godan, Bassai Dai, Seiinchin, and several other kata ... Black Belt Magazine - January 1993

I am not sure if that link is still running but it states that punches like the uppercut etc exist in kata.
It might be how they interpret the kata. From my point of view one of the things taught in kata is how to counter attack a strike by attacking the limbs. Head cranks, throws etc.


Two examples of why I think karate training benefits boxing training.
In a competative fight or a self defence scenario a person say throws a straight right ? Reverse punch?
And it doesnt connect? then what? One option is;
Open the hand grab the neck and pull the guy on to a knee strike and continue with other techniques.
Miss with a right hook? One option is;.
Follow through with an elbow and continue with other techniques.


Both can be used by a boxer or a karate ka in a self defence scenario. Some one who only trains in competitive gloved boxing would have to do additional training to know those techniques.


So again my point is training in boxing and karate benefit each other.



Just a small point.Years ago some karate competitions were fought along the same lines as the vidios.
You will have to draw your own conclusions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuOWzhcRh48&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4XlcFA1VJA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ox1Tore9nw&search=Urquidez%20Parker%20Elvis
Good listening!!



Edited by ANDY44 (10/06/06 07:13 AM)

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#289798 - 10/06/06 05:51 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
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Of course boxing and karate compliment each other. If you're doing more contact stuff early on in karate, obviously that's giong to benefit you.

Andy44 asked how would a boxer know these other tools are available. Andy, you're assuming that a boxer is simply a competitive ("sport" -- I hate that word) boxer. It's never good to assume that a boxer doesn't train other things.


-John

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#289799 - 10/06/06 06:05 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Of course boxing and karate compliment each other. If you're doing more contact stuff early on in karate, obviously that's giong to benefit you.

Andy44 asked how would a boxer know these other tools are available. Andy, you're assuming that a boxer is simply a competitive ("sport" -- I hate that word) boxer. It's never good to assume that a boxer doesn't train other things.


-John




Its the way I wrote it John. Hope that is a bit clearer.
I have observed to many bare knuckle boxing fights by gypsy's to assume boxing is just a competitive gloved sport.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/series2/bare_knuckle_fighting.shtml

http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/0506/three.htm



Edited by ANDY44 (10/06/06 07:17 AM)

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#289800 - 10/06/06 12:52 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Also, from day one they are working on ten techniques, max. That is there complete offensive training. It gives them way more time to specialize and train what they do. The training will come faster to them than a karateka. The average Karateka, learns about three stances, two to three punches, a couple of kicks, and a kata. Then he will study those things for two or three months on the average until he ranks up and learns new material. From the begining a boxers plan is laid out for him. No mysterious kata to try and decipher.
When he spars it is intense. It is not stop and go such as one or two step sparring. Or point sparring. And its done in rounds of three to five minutes. This way the stamina is truly affected and strengthens.

Also he has coaching between rounds. So does his opponent. This way he automatically knows his faults and can attempt to fix or work around them. This is rarely done in dojos. Mostly they yell to you from the sidelines at best, which is inaffective to say the least. The karateka has the tools, he doesnt have the experience because his training is flawed.





Chen-Zen - If you train hard its just like a boxer or I've wrestled and wrestlers even trainer harder then boxers. Or just as hard doing different things. But at a certain level you should be able to train as hard as any serious fighter!!

I'm at these levels you don't practice Kata, maybe bunkia and apply them but not Kata in a meet that is used as a common ground. Usually at these meets you are testing and sharping already formed skills. The foundation is already set, usually in these meets you have a corner person just like boxing or its the all out 1-3 minute brawls were anythings goes standing,grappling and groundfighting if you want, you go full out and as fast as you can. Let me tell you, boxers don't stay standing long in these meets, and they learn to fight on their knees and get back up FAST!!!

We keep seeing Karate at its basic level, sure a place that trains you to compete will do it faster because thats all they do. But with both skilled prepared, karate or boxer the learnin curve is smaller for Karate guy. They expect the unexpected. Boxers are ready for the power factor and fittness and can absorb what they are use to. But are shocked by what they don't suspect.

Boxing is good but its limited, Karate preparation is baby gloved and then turns tough because its tuned for the masses not to produce gladiators/modern boxers. Or people that may make their living in the ring.

Both skilled I'd take Karate. Boxers are prepared for serious conflicts above the waist but they are limited in range expectation.

I agree with Andy44.


Edited by Neko456 (10/06/06 12:57 PM)
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#289801 - 10/07/06 04:59 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
Chen Zen Offline
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Posts: 7043
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Sure the karateka will become better as he trains longer, but eventually thats going to peak out, the falter. As will the boxer. He also will improve, peak, and falter. The question for me then becomes" who reaches their peak faster?" To me thats the boxer. He doesnt have to spend those initial years going through the kiddie stuff to get to the good techniques. Thats why karate, and other traditional arts training is flawed, in my opinion. And understandably so. With the way people sling lawsuits around, its no wonder Many dojo's take their time.

Also, I think the boxer can take more abuse. He has been punched alot. He likely will have as good or better footwork than the karateka. He will be able to slip, bob and weave as well which arent things often associated with traditional arts such as TKD or Karate Do. In a strictly waist up situation he has the advantage. Now being in a MMA situation, then the playing feild levels as the boxer likely trains kicking and grappling less. But, the boxer has two things in his favor. The punch is faster than the kick and to grapple with him you have to get past his punch and get to him first. So perhaps the karateka may not have any leverage over the boxer.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
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#289802 - 10/07/06 09:16 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Obviously this all comes down to the individual and how he or she trains. The more hardcore an individual is, the harder he will tend to push himself.

However, the vast majority of people starting out in martial arts are not hardcore. I think that's safe to say. I mean, how many people on average, drop out of training before they even reach black belt level? Quite a bit I'd wager to say.

That isn't to say that boxing doesn't lose people due to attrition, but I would say that most of the people going into boxing are somewhat mentally tougher to begin with because they know in advance that it's tough. After that, those who drop out are often a smaller percentage. Those that stay are already some seriously tough invididuals who can both soak up punishment as well as dish it out.

I'm not discrediting karate-ka or their work ethic and toughness. I'm just looking at the folks on average and, the typical training regimen. Most karate-ka have so much more on their plates than simple, basic fight training.

Then it comes down to how well the karate-ka is trained. Why do I STILL see a lot of karate-ka (and former karate-ka) who come into my gym with such p1ss-poor boxing defense? I have trained with plenty of karate and TKD guys over the years who despite having several years of training under their belts, STILL could not even defend from a simple JAB!!! I am not making this up. Does that happen with guys who have boxed? Absolutely NOT! They learn to deal with a jab in their first WEEK in boxing.

Otherwise, the karate-ka that I have trained with who've supplemented their training with boxing have done quite well.



-John

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#289803 - 10/08/06 05:10 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:




I'm not discrediting karate-ka or their work ethic and toughness. I'm just looking at the folks on average and, the typical training regimen. Most karate-ka have so much more on their plates than simple, basic fight training.

Then it comes down to how well the karate-ka is trained. Why do I STILL see a lot of karate-ka (and former karate-ka) who come into my gym with such p1ss-poor boxing defense? -John




I think that is down to the karate ka and how they trained and what they used . Not down to the training methods available in karate. Like I said somewhere I think it comes down to the individual. The same can be said here
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3451193314984597656&q=Chuck+Liddell

Where is Titos defence?

This guy doesnt have a defence.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2471286240673428878&q=boxing

The last punch thrown here the guy throws a punch no cover, chin held high and wonders why he got countered and his jaw broke.

The other punches/ use of the forearm that leads to this I wont describe. Good referee positioning though!

.Boxing has good defence techniques.This guy didnt use them.


I think again it is down to the individual.
I think it happens in all combat sports


Edited by ANDY44 (10/08/06 05:43 AM)

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#289804 - 10/08/06 05:35 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Quote:

Also, from day one they are working on ten techniques, max. That is there complete offensive training. It gives them way more time to specialize and train what they do. The training will come faster to them than a karateka. The average Karateka, learns about three stances, two to three punches, a couple of kicks, and a kata. Then he will study those things for two or three months on the average until he ranks up and learns new material. From the begining a boxers plan is laid out for him. No mysterious kata to try and decipher.
When he spars it is intense. It is not stop and go such as one or two step sparring. Or point sparring. And its done in rounds of three to five minutes. This way the stamina is truly affected and strengthens.

Also he has coaching between rounds. So does his opponent. This way he automatically knows his faults and can attempt to fix or work around them. This is rarely done in dojos. Mostly they yell to you from the sidelines at best, which is inaffective to say the least. The karateka has the tools, he doesnt have the experience because his training is flawed.





Chen-Zen - If you train hard its just like a boxer or I've wrestled and wrestlers even trainer harder then boxers. Or just as hard doing different things. But at a certain level you should be able to train as hard as any serious fighter!!

I'm at these levels you don't practice Kata, maybe bunkia and apply them but not Kata in a meet that is used as a common ground. Usually at these meets you are testing and sharping already formed skills. The foundation is already set, usually in these meets you have a corner person just like boxing or its the all out 1-3 minute brawls were anythings goes standing,grappling and groundfighting if you want, you go full out and as fast as you can. Let me tell you, boxers don't stay standing long in these meets, and they learn to fight on their knees and get back up FAST!!!

We keep seeing Karate at its basic level, sure a place that trains you to compete will do it faster because thats all they do. But with both skilled prepared, karate or boxer the learnin curve is smaller for Karate guy. They expect the unexpected. Boxers are ready for the power factor and fittness and can absorb what they are use to. But are shocked by what they don't suspect.

Boxing is good but its limited, Karate preparation is baby gloved and then turns tough because its tuned for the masses not to produce gladiators/modern boxers. Or people that may make their living in the ring.

Both skilled I'd take Karate. Boxers are prepared for serious conflicts above the waist but they are limited in range expectation.

I agree with Andy44.




Agreed Neko
How are you ?

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#289805 - 10/08/06 09:07 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Andy44
Quote:

I think that is down to the karate ka and how they trained and what they used . Not down to the training methods available in karate.




I disagree completely. You can never convince me of that in a million YEARS! It would be one thing if I didn't KNOW how karate is often trained, but I DO. I've DONE that type of training and I have done boxing training and to say that there is no difference is ludicrous. Which is what you're basically implying.

Those differences are HUGE man. Boxing training has you working on fight training. Much of ones time with karate training is wasted on ritualistic practice -- like KATA and other nonsense (imo).


Quote:


Like I said somewhere I think it comes down to the individual. The same can be said here
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3451193314984597656&q=Chuck+Liddell

Where is Titos defence?






Tito was defending himself well for a bit there. But you really aren't supposed to stand there and become a human heavy bag. It's interesting that you took one section from one fight of his to analyze a breakdown in his overall excellent striking defense.

The one thing he didn't do (and no one other than Tito understands why) is move into the clinch as those shots were being fired.


You should go and check out videos of Fred Ettish fighting Johnny Rhoades (basically a YMCA trained boxer vs. a 6th degree black belt). See what you think.



Quote:


This guy doesnt have a defence.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2471286240673428878&q=boxing

The last punch thrown here the guy throws a punch no cover, chin held high and wonders why he got countered and his jaw broke.





People can and do forget fundamentals. People can and do make mistakes. They can totally omit key basics of a sound delivery system. That doesn't make the delivery system bad -- only the fighter making use of it.

I'd still rather train with my hands up high like a boxer than at my hip - wouldn't you?




Quote:


I think again it is down to the individual.
I think it happens in all combat sports






"IT" would happen even MORE often if you got people to fight with their hands down by the sides or by their hip, doing a lot of lead arm blocking where the elbow moved away from the side of the torso. There are better and worse ways of teaching and training people. Nothing is foolproof, especially to a talented fool.



Neko456 wrote
Quote:


Both skilled I'd take Karate. Boxers are prepared for serious conflicts above the waist but they are limited in range expectation.







Lets not put boxers into a "box" anymore than you'd want to have karate-ka put into a box. The individual who trains boxing as part of his MMA practice will NOT be limited in range expectation. There is this tendency to think that all boxers won't be expecting kicks. What about kickboxers?

Again, it's a limited argument because ultimately, the individual determines his own fate by his training methods. But I would say this: Drive by your local McDojo and watch training. Then drive to your local boxing gym. Check out the differences. It's night and day.


-John

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#289806 - 10/08/06 11:25 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
JKOGAS

"much of karate time is wasted on ritualitsic nonsense like kata. "

(not an exact quote--but accurate in terms of content and intent)

And here we go again.

I'm SOOOOOOOO glad that so many people have worked so hard over the years on this site to try and cut down on the "bashing" thing.

And here I thought we might have been wasting out time.

Sheesh.


Edited by cxt (10/08/06 11:32 AM)

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#289807 - 10/08/06 12:28 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Andy44
Quote:
Quote:



I think that is down to the karate ka and how they trained and what they used . Not down to the training methods available in karate.






Quote:


I disagree completely. You can never convince me of that in a million YEARS! It would be one thing if I didn't KNOW how karate is often trained, but I DO. I've DONE that type of training and I have done boxing training and to say that there is no difference is ludicrous. Which is what you're basically implying.




Nope I didnít imply that .What I said was I think that is down to the karate ka and how they trained and what they used . Not down to the training methods available in karate.
In other words there are good defence/offence methods in karate. Just because as you stated certain karate ka didnt use them and couldnít defend against a jab that doesnít mean to say the techniques/training methods donít exist.
Quote:


Those differences are HUGE man. Boxing training has you working on fight training.



Boxing training should be working on fight training but if you look at the vidio I posted you will see that one certain boxer forgot the basics. Keep the chin down and to punch with the chin tucked away etc etc. Those techniques are taught in boxing at a basic level. He was more than likely the same as your karate ka who didnít apply their basics when as you say they couldnít defend from a basic jab. Again it is in the methods of karate and boxing but seemingly neither applied them. Again I still think on that subject it is down to the karate ka and how they trained and what they used . Not down to the training methods available in karate.

Quote:


Much of ones time with karate training is wasted on ritualistic practice -- like KATA and other nonsense (imo).




Oohh John. Ritualistic practice? Kata? Mmmm. Well I must say in a way you might think you are correct depending on who you train kata with. I am no expert on kata and more than likely there are others who could argue this point better than I can . Regards Kata application I have only recently began re studying kata. But from the techniques that I have seen I want to know.





Quote:



Like I said somewhere I think it comes down to the individual. The same can be said here
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3451193314984597656&q=Chuck+Liddell

Where is Titos defence?







Quote:



Tito was defending himself well for a bit there. But you really aren't supposed to stand there and become a human heavy bag. It's interesting that you took one section from one fight of his to analyze a breakdown in his overall excellent striking defense.

The one thing he didn't do (and no one other than Tito understands why) is move into the clinch as those shots were being fired.


You should go and check out videos of Fred Ettish fighting Johnny Rhoades (basically a YMCA trained boxer vs. a 6th degree black belt). See what you think.




I will look at the two fighters.
John it only takes one breakdown in anything to lose. Personaly I think he(Tito) perhaps was stunned.but I havent seen the whole fight.
But either way not taking it away from Tito. I think he is a great fighter but like I said I think it comes down to the individual not to much the ďstyleĒ



Quote:



This guy doesnt have a defence.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2471286240673428878&q=boxing

The last punch thrown here the guy throws a punch no cover, chin held high and wonders why he got countered and his jaw broke.







Quote:


People can and do forget fundamentals. People can and do make mistakes. They can totally omit key basics of a sound delivery system.




Yes they can and they do. Some times when I study fighters I wonder if they were ever taught the basics as in the chin down.

Quote:


That doesn't make the delivery system bad -- only the fighter making use of it.




Agreed. I think it is down to the individual.
Quote:


I'd still rather train with my hands up high like a boxer than at my hip - wouldn't you?





I agree but Im afraid the top karate ka I observe donít fight with their hands on their hips.
And some boxers did fight and indeed still do fight with their hands low and then they got caught. So again I think again it is down to the individual.






Quote:



"IT" would happen even MORE often if you got people to fight with their hands down by the sides or by their hip, doing a lot of lead arm blocking where the elbow moved away from the side of the torso. There are better and worse ways of teaching and training people. Nothing is foolproof, especially to a talented fool.





John that can apply to any combat sport or street fight not just karate or boxing.
I wouldnít consider having my hands at the side when competition fighting or in a self defence scenario except in one particuler moment before it got in to the physical part of a self defence scenario.
Regards the talented fool. I could put that label on to any amount of fighters but I wont.
Again as far as I am concerned then it is down to the individual.
A horse can be lead to water but not made to drink.








Quote:



Again, it's a limited argument because ultimately, the individual determines his own fate by his training methods. But I would say this: Drive by your local McDojo and watch training. Then drive to your local boxing gym. Check out the differences. It's night and day.





John it would depend on the dojo and the boxing gym. Like anything else there is good and could be better.
Im not to sure where you did your karate training? But I think I can empathise with your karate situation. Might be the same as one of the reasons I am re studying kata. But that is a different story.



John. You make a lot of sense.

Thanks
Andy

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#289808 - 10/08/06 12:40 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: cxt]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
m
"


Edited by ANDY44 (10/08/06 12:50 PM)

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#289809 - 10/08/06 12:44 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
JKogas Offline
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Posts: 10818
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Andy --


My personal view is that kata is a waste of time. I really dont see where that could be considered "bashing", but some folks are hyper sensitive.

Kata is a choreographed pattern existing within a fixed footwork pattern within a fixed "circumstance". Fighting is never a fixed thing however. One doesn't equal the other - particularly when it's solo practice against the "air".

Do you sort of see the point?


-John

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#289810 - 10/08/06 12:51 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: cxt]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

JKOGAS

"much of karate time is wasted on ritualitsic nonsense like kata. "

(not an exact quote--but accurate in terms of content and intent)

And here we go again.

I'm SOOOOOOOO glad that so many people have worked so hard over the years on this site to try and cut down on the "bashing" thing.

And here I thought we might have been wasting out time.

Sheesh.




Hi

I can empathise with John on this point. I have recently started to re study kata application and what I am finding is although I thought that most of the applications I was taught years ago were rubbish the applications I am now seeing are not. I thought years ago that most of the then taught kata applications would not work in a self defence/fight scenario but to keep the piece I said nothing.There was very little in the way of working on different methods of power generation.I think the kata applications I am now studying would work and I am happy with. Although at the moment I am some what limited.

so I am not sure "bashing" is the correct term. More like proving techniques in Kata would work or rather the correct applications are used as they were intended?
I await the response but please who ever replies keep it on topic

Thanks


Edited by ANDY44 (10/08/06 01:38 PM)

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#289811 - 10/08/06 12:56 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Andy --


My personal view is that kata is a waste of time. I really dont see where that could be considered "bashing", but some folks are hyper sensitive.

Kata is a choreographed pattern existing within a fixed footwork pattern within a fixed "circumstance". Fighting is never a fixed thing however. One doesn't equal the other - particularly when it's solo practice against the "air".

Do you sort of see the point?


-John




Hi

I can empathise with you John on this point.I cant given my limited time spent re studying kata application prove to you a great deal about kata application. In the future I might be able to engage in a discussion.
Just maybe keep an open mind ?

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#289812 - 10/08/06 05:29 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
the way it was explained to me the "circumstance" is most definately NOT fixed. but open to interperetation (sp?)
i think boxing is allot faster though to teach someone how to "fight"
i guess i kind of have mixed feelings about kata. i do think they are fascinating though, who would think to see a finger lock when watching someone perform a down block, for example. learning how to use the techniques contained in kata is another ballgame altogether. one that boxing takes into consideration from day one and does not separate into parts...ie...basics...kata...one steps...kumite.
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#289813 - 10/08/06 10:54 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: kempo_jujitsu]
JKogas Offline
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Kempo_jujitsu wrote
Quote:

the way it was explained to me the "circumstance" is most definately NOT fixed. but open to interperetation (sp?)





It might as well be, considering that itís all imaginary. But thatís the point - itís all imaginary. It wouldnít matter anyway because the footwork and technique are fixed. What point does it matter if the circumstance is different? Thatís the least important aspect.


Quote:


i think boxing is allot faster though to teach someone how to "fight"




And if thatís the bottom line (and I believe it is for the vast majority of folks), thatís where you should place your focus -- on the fastest development of skill possible. I mean, why on earth would you want to actually DELAY your progress??


Quote:


i guess i kind of have mixed feelings about kata. i do think they are fascinating though, who would think to see a finger lock when watching someone perform a down block, for example. learning how to use the techniques contained in kata is another ballgame altogether. one that boxing takes into consideration from day one and does not separate into parts...ie...basics...kata...one steps...kumite.





Ya know, Iíve done kata. It isnít like I havenít had any experience with it. I just realized early on that the whole purpose for kata was to string people along. Thatís not just my opinion, but the opinion of many others.

You gotta figure man, if there is no fighting skill to be derived, itís purpose must be for something else. Indeed.



-John

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#289814 - 10/09/06 01:48 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:




on that the whole purpose for kata was to string people along. Thatís not just my opinion, but the opinion of many others.





I would have agreed with you on that one before I started to re study Kata.

Quote:


You gotta figure man, if there is no fighting skill to be derived, itís purpose must be for something else. Indeed.





Hi John.
My thougths on your point.

From the little of the pinans that I have re studied I think there are usable fighting skills in the katas. Some techniques I have tried out in sparring and some I havent tried because I am still in the working the technique by repetition stage. How ever from observations of one specific technique the problem would seem to be the Masters seem to have got it right.I think it is a Brilliant technique. The 4th 5th dans etcs upwards (They are in affiliation with the Masters) who are meant to train as per the masters wishes etc changed it so that the technique leaves the defender open to direct counters . Then after that whatever the lower ranks do with it is anybodies guess.
So down to the individual again.





Edited by ANDY44 (10/09/06 02:03 PM)

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#289815 - 10/09/06 01:51 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: kempo_jujitsu]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

the way it was explained to me the "circumstance" is most definately NOT fixed. but open to interperetation (sp?)





SP?

I believe interpretation of kata is of little use if the interpretation doesnt work. I wouldnt now practice something I thought wouldnt work. No point. If it would work then yes.


Edited by ANDY44 (10/09/06 01:55 PM)

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#289816 - 10/09/06 01:59 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
BrianS Offline
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Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Lotty dotty everybody,

Let's get off the whole kata arguement,it's not what this thread is about anyways. There's no reason to continually defend kata in the KARATE forum.
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#289817 - 10/09/06 02:06 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
agreed Brian,

Lets stick to the topics good people,

simply start fresh threads if you want to. (and if it's kata bashing we can delete them )
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#289818 - 10/09/06 07:10 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: shoshinkan]
Chen Zen Offline
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Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I think that kata has a lot to do with the answer to the original question. It certainly had some influence on my decision anyways. It was the reason I chose the boxer over the karateka.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289819 - 10/09/06 09:39 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
jkogas, i pretty much agree with you for my personal goals. i voted for the boxer for allot of reasons alraedy stated by everyone here. i think the answer really should be to train like a boxer, no matter what art you do. take your art, and do it "alive" as you would say. at least partially...i mean if you wanna swim, you gotta get in the water right?
on the other hand i do think kata do have a wealth of things to teach. yet, i also dont think they can teach you anything a man/woman, or just plain experience couldnt teach you faster. why not just cut to the chase and teach me what it is you want me to learn? i'm sure its good for getting students to learn on their own and what not ...i suppose.
id like to learn more about kata before deciding either way whether or not i like it.
i have done them in tkd, but it was nothing but sport, with no (even bad) applications of the movements at all. and i noticed i developed allot of bad muscle memory, and it was hard not to drop my 'retracting' (if you will) hand when i punched with the other. i guess all people are different though in their preferences. thats a great thing.
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#289820 - 10/09/06 11:31 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas

Chen,
I can see where that would influence your answer because of the training time you put into it,but then it turned to the what good is kata thread. That is not what this thread is about,originally.

If you guys want to continually argue about it,go ahead,knock your socks off,sheesh.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#289821 - 10/10/06 12:32 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: BrianS]
Chen Zen Offline
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Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I just like to bust your chops on the whole thing, what with you being karateka and all.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289822 - 10/10/06 01:29 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
To Jkoga & Chen Zen Comment that Kata are a waste of time, if you think that fighting is just in the ring swing and countering as hard as you can maybe.

Katas IMHO are just a a dictionary of techniques stored in patterns, but if analayzed can be used for defense in real situations. But not in the pattern of the Kata, you draw the meaning out with the use of the technique used.

For example all my years (not many really) boxing, wrestling or just street fighting neither taught me a counter for attack from behind. In this one incident a person arms around my shoulder prepare to choke. The technique (taught in many KATAS )elbow and punch over the shoulder knocked him back and staggered him so I gained the advantage from his attack from the back. Now after facing him any skilled I had attained could have finished him but instantly doing this KATA technique gave me the advantage.
Defense against a weapon like a stick or using these skills to enhance PR-24 development etc.., taken to the street. Taught to others and used successfully All by use of Kata.


Boxing is a face to face SPORT, that can be used successfully in a street encounter. But Karate and all its elements prepares you for the unsuspected and unusually attacks that can happen. As in defense while on the ground or once grabbed etc..

Boxing training is excellent but what could a boxer do attacked from the back except run or try to turn around. Sure he could makes something up that Might work, but he wasn't trained for it. Or teach others to use tools of the trade to defend instead of deadly force/gun. NO.

Lets not put all things that we don't fully understand into a "Does it work in the ring concept" everything that works in a ring is not good. Like having a referee get someone off your a$$, that don't happen in a real situation, You got to do it yourself.

I see Kata no different then Shadow boxings(not as free but the same but really more), its a wealth of information if you know how t use it. Just like a dictionary. Shadow boxing is invaulble and its done by yourself using your imagination to inspire your movements. I shadow box using all ranges even grappling & ground fighting by myself (not in public because I don't want anybody calling the people with straight jacket) it looks pretty ridiculous but I understand what I'm doing. And yes I use a lot of combos that from various Katas in my SB.

Katas are far more valuable then listening to 40-60 yr. old boxers telling the young guys on the bag what their favorite combination was or watching them work a heavy bag. Or still thinking they could fight for a Championship. Off topic but I do get tired of hearing it.


Edited by Neko456 (10/10/06 01:37 PM)

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#289823 - 10/10/06 03:30 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
GENERAL REPLY

Folks if were going to have the never ending kata arguement can we please, PLEASE start a new thread--perhaps in the Forms section.

No sense in cluttering up this thread with topics that just won't die.

If people are going to play "Night Of The Living Dead, with topics that have already been settled, then the least they can do is start another thread for the discussion.
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#289824 - 10/10/06 11:31 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: cxt]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Neko,
We have stolen this thread. I invite you to finsih this on another thread. You could call it the "Chen disproves and destroys kata " thread. Just kidding. I dont wish to be to disrespectful to the karateka in their own forum so if you would feel ok doing so we can have the discussion in the JKD forum. Or Here. I leave the choice up to you friend. Be ready.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289825 - 10/12/06 04:25 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: MattJ]
Umbra_777 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 148
Their's something I've been wondering for a while that's related to this whole thing:

Everyone's always talking about how the punches in boxing are so powerful and simple and such, however I've never heard someone talk about the advantages of the straight and reverse punches used in Karate and TKD. Could anyone fill me in on the pros and cons of this style of punching?

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#289826 - 10/12/06 09:25 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Umbra_777]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Everyone's always talking about how the punches in boxing are so powerful and simple and such, however I've never heard someone talk about the advantages of the straight and reverse punches used in Karate and TKD. Could anyone fill me in on the pros and cons of this style of punching?





The potential for power with the typical reverse punch is decent. The drawback is that these are usually trained off the hip which is only going to get you knocked the F' out in a real fight. People who train to actually FIGHT keep their hands up.


-John

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#289827 - 10/13/06 08:13 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Neko456]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:




I see Kata no different then Shadow boxings(not as free but the same but really more), its a wealth of information if you know how t use it. Just like a dictionary. Shadow boxing is invaulble and its done by yourself using your imagination to inspire your movements. I shadow box using all ranges even grappling & ground fighting by myself (not in public because I don't want anybody calling the people with straight jacket) it looks pretty ridiculous but I understand what I'm doing. And yes I use a lot of combos that from various Katas in my SB.






HI Neko
Performing kata is a means of remembering the techniques.
If I could draw a vague parrellel with a sentence from Renzo Gracie who I think is a great fighter. He talks of "The importance of shadow fighting". Kata is a set of techniques on parr with muscle memory. Shadow fighting is practicing solo with all techniques found in the free movement phase in BJJ.

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#289828 - 10/13/06 10:27 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Umbra_777 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 148
Quote:

Quote:


Everyone's always talking about how the punches in boxing are so powerful and simple and such, however I've never heard someone talk about the advantages of the straight and reverse punches used in Karate and TKD. Could anyone fill me in on the pros and cons of this style of punching?





The potential for power with the typical reverse punch is decent. The drawback is that these are usually trained off the hip which is only going to get you knocked the F' out in a real fight. People who train to actually FIGHT keep their hands up.


-John




So if performed correctly a reverse punch has the potential for more power than a boxing punch?

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#289829 - 10/13/06 05:49 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

Quote:


Everyone's always talking about how the punches in boxing are so powerful and simple and such, however I've never heard someone talk about the advantages of the straight and reverse punches used in Karate and TKD. Could anyone fill me in on the pros and cons of this style of punching?





The potential for power with the typical reverse punch is decent. The drawback is that these are usually trained off the hip which is only going to get you knocked the F' out in a real fight. People who train to actually FIGHT keep their hands up.


-John




Yeah and people who train real karate keep their hands up and in front of them when they fight. You assume a lot, still. Most of the older karate guys boxed, wrestled/grappled, played lots of football, fought for real on the streets and so on. Many of them were BBs or high ranks in arts like Judo, fought Golden Gloves, or boxed in the 'hood their entire young lives.

So some person who didn't do any of these things and all of a sudden did an art like JKD or fighting karate or whatever MA/sport thinks they can fight for real? Trust me they are delusional.

This is the truth- you can either fight or you can't. You can either draw or sing or you can't. Most just can't. They don't have a realisitic view of their strengths and weaknesses. They can win in a ring sport, but when confronted with an altercation where there is the element of surprise and no weigh-in, fan-fare or preparation they freeze up and get KO'd by some construction worker from Osaka. 'Nawmean there tough guy...

Get real and quit lumping every TMA type into the category of wackling who can't squabble. You are just as clueless as the folks who thought having a BB in karate or kung-fu meant you could fight. Most that go to learn how to fight without that in them, environmentally implanted in them, will still be weak when it comes to the real deal.

So to reiterate: you can either fight or you can't. Certain activities may enhance your skill-set, but nothing will make a grown person who is past their neurologically/biologically most plastic stages of life a real fighter. Fighters are born, bred then groomed, but if it ain't innate and learned at a young age the best you can hope for is to be in good shape and to learn some combat principles. Luck is your best weapon in a self-preservation scenario if all you do is practice limited fighting and ring sport. It's been proven over and over.

Lesson for today:
Get on Google, search for "clue" and get one...IMHO

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#289830 - 10/13/06 06:24 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Unsu]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Unsu --

If you'd like to debate, that's fine. Just don't be an ignorant pr*ck and make personal attacks. Think you can handle that? I appreciate your opinon. Unfortunately the way you are presenting it makes it damned near impossible to read, or want to read.

I AM being civil, if I am saying things that you might not want to hear. Try being so yourself and you might get somewhere on this forum. Otherwise, enjoy your short membership.



-John


Edited by JKogas (10/13/06 07:00 PM)

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#289831 - 10/13/06 07:10 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

Unsu --

If you'd like to debate, that's fine. Just don't be an ignorant pr*ck and make personal attacks. Think you can handle that?



-John




What's personal? Where's the attack? And aren't you a mod? Why are you calling me a phallus? Doing the exact same thing you did got me booted from FA.com. What's up with the double standard mods?

Look I never said anything about you specifically. If what I posted hit home and your conscience is calling you out then so be it, but don't blame your self-esteem issues on me. Where I grew up we call that "showing your a--".

I can gandle ANYTHING anyone on here, even you, dishes out. Beyond that I looove to debate. Bring it on...

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#289832 - 10/13/06 07:34 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Unsu]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
double standards - welcome to life...........

In fairness everyone calm down and discuss the topic like adults please
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#289833 - 10/13/06 07:39 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Unsu]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Unsu wrote
Quote:


What's personal? Where's the attack?




To be specific:

Quote:


You are just as clueless asÖÖ




And,

Quote:


Lesson for today:
Get on Google, search for "clue" and get one...





Really that isnít much of an affront and personally, I donít care what you call me or think of me. The thing is, Iíve not had the first dealing with you yet on this forum and you start right out of the gate with a rant that is more aimed at me than anything else.

Thus, if you want to debate thatís fine, I love nothing more. If you want to throw down, fine there as well. Lets meet up and get it on. Otherwise, when in Rome, do as the Romans and play along. State your point, donít be a pr*ck about it and weíll get along just fine.


Quote:


And aren't you a mod?




Yes, but not of this forum.


Quote:


Why are you calling me a phallus? Doing the exact same thing you did got me booted from FA.com. What's up with the double standard mods?





So you got booted from FA.com?? That's this site. What name were you going by then?

And why aren't you using your real name here like I am big guy?


I called you a ďphallusĒ simply because, one good turn deserves another. You started in on me and I fired back. Thatís the way it is funboy.


Quote:


Look I never said anything about you specifically.





You stated:

Quote:


You are just as clueless as the folks who thought having a BB in karate or kung-fu meant you could fight.




So there is nothing specific about me there?


Again I really donít care what you think about me. But if you want my attention, youíre going to have address me with some respect.

Quote:


If what I posted hit home and your conscience is calling you out then so be it, but don't blame your self-esteem issues on me. Where I grew up we call that "showing your a--".





Unfortunately for you, nothing you said hit a nerve with me, other than how you were saying it. About 50 percent of what you were saying has some validity. Where I grew up, we called that being about ďhalf-assedĒ.



Quote:


I can gandle ANYTHING anyone on here, even you, dishes out. Beyond that I looove to debate. Bring it on...





Thatís good that you can handle words big boy. If you want to debate with me, youíd better be able to. But youíd BETTER also have some damned sense. Thatís the part about you that Iím thinking is lacking the most.


-John

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#289834 - 10/13/06 07:51 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Unsu]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Probably the part where you called him clueless. Just a guess. While i dont know that you necessarily directly attacked him your post did have a rather unpleasant tone.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289835 - 10/13/06 08:07 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Yeah you know Chen, I really don't mind anyone speaking their mind, so long as there is a certain measure of respect shown.

It's one thing to state an opinion about training. That's what this place is FOR. I mean, everyone knows how *I* feel about things. I give my opinion about certain practices but I donít disrespect PEOPLE personally (until I have been disrespected, then all bets are off).

Once someone stats his opinion about me, it becomes personal. That's just something that, although it really doesn't phase me, can't be allowed on this forum, lest it will go straight down the toilet. If we allow one to do so, we'd have to allow EVERYONE to talk as much sh*t about each other as they chose. Thatís the reason why I called him out on this.

Unsu, you have the right to speak your mind here. That right however ends at MY nose. Please take this into consideration if youíd like to enjoy a hassle free experience on this forum.



-John

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#289836 - 10/13/06 08:17 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Quote:

Yeah you know Chen, I really don't mind anyone speaking their mind, so long as there is a certain measure of respect shown.

-John


I hear ya John. Ive had to deal out some punishment myself. I dont know what it is about these new guys as of late. While there has been a few quality users joining up it seems like the majority of them are are just asking for trouble. Rather sad to have to waste valuable space and time dealing with that sort. Nothing we havent handled before though.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289837 - 10/13/06 08:21 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'm betting when he comes back, he's on his BEST behavior.



-John

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#289838 - 10/13/06 08:32 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I hope not it just got entertaining. LOl. JK. We need as few posters of that nature as possible.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289839 - 10/13/06 11:57 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Unsu]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:


Everyone's always talking about how the punches in boxing are so powerful and simple and such, however I've never heard someone talk about the advantages of the straight and reverse punches used in Karate and TKD. Could anyone fill me in on the pros and cons of this style of punching?





The potential for power with the typical reverse punch is decent. The drawback is that these are usually trained off the hip which is only going to get you knocked the F' out in a real fight. People who train to actually FIGHT keep their hands up.


-John




Quote:


Yeah and people who train real karate keep their hands up and in front of them when they fight.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBbaH3CIVTc&mode=related&search=


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASGFOKC2lTM&mode=related&search=
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4605245861799874378&q=karate+knockouts

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6192629332384833142&q=karate+knockouts

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5802308196935672841&q=karate

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-738567329119735266&q=karate

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=6925356458397814201&q=karate

Not all karate ka or even other fighting styles(hate that word) have their hands up and in a good position and chin down for a good defence

And guys like this one with good left hooks or any guy with a decent technique will exploit it.
John does have a good and valid point. Maybe if the none believers got in and sparred with this boxer?
Having said that I dont think this apply's to everybody including most knowledgeable karate ka.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2471286240673428878&q=boxing

Quote:



This is the truth- you can either fight or you can't. You can either draw or sing or you can't.





If your refering to inherited traits for fighting then fine. Other wise most people either with out or very little of those traits can be trained to fight or at least fight better than they could in the worse case scenario.
But you are wrong to say either a person can fight or cant fight
Quote:


Get real and quit lumping every TMA type into the category of wackling who can't squabble.




He doesnt he tests the water.Prove it to him.

Quote:


You are just as clueless as the folks who thought having a BB in karate or kung-fu meant you could fight.




You are wrong again John isnt clueless. He says what he thinks unless you can prove him wrong by evidence. Not speculation
Quote:


Most that go to learn how to fight without that in them, environmentally implanted in them, will still be weak when it comes to the real deal.




Debatable.Inherited fighting traits doesnt always mean the person has a greater advantage. There are other variables

Quote:


So to reiterate: you can either fight or you can't. Certain activities may enhance your skill-set, but nothing will make a grown person who is past their neurologically/biologically most plastic stages of life a real fighter.






I totaly Dissagree. Define what you think is a real fighter?

Quote:


Fighters are born, bred then groomed, but if it ain't innate and learned at a young age the best you can hope for is to be in good shape and to learn some combat principles. Luck is your best weapon in a self-preservation scenario if all you do is practice limited fighting and ring sport. It's been proven over and over.





Some people are born with inherited traits that would help a fighter. Some are not but that still doesnt stop some one if they train hard enough from becoming a good fighter.

Quote:


Lesson for today:
Get on Google, search for "clue" and get one...IMHO





If i compare what John has stated on this forum to what you have stated then perhaps it is you that should look up clue using google.

I am not defending John as such he sees thing his way I see them my way. But the what you are missing is most of the time he does know what he is talking about. He doesnt seem to like kata or some types of karate based on what he has seen and to be quite honest I agree with him. Except I dont think John has seen real karate or real karate kata and kata application. That isnt his fault.

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#289840 - 10/14/06 02:17 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
Umbra_777 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 148
Quote:

This is the truth- you can either fight or you can't. You can either draw or sing or you can't.


In order to refute this point we need look no further than the U.S. Army. Either it is possible to train people to be fighters or the Army has an amazing ability to recruit only those with natural talent.

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#289841 - 10/14/06 07:39 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

I'm betting when he comes back, he's on his BEST behavior.



-John




Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. How many believe and train that boxing hands are better then Karate hands in the street?
Quote:


I believe that boxing hands are better then Karate hands in gloved sparring using the basic 5-6 punches, but not in the street.

If my intent is to injury or end a fight quickly, Karate hands are better, target selection, use of entire body and control.

How many work the bags with different hand formations, elbow, forearms, shoulders, hips, knees and head butts??? You fight how you train.

No wrong or right just a poll?







Hi John. Instead of getting angry and going way off topic can you direct me to any discussions on clinch work on the forum? And regards booting people off the forum well as I see it if you guys want to let off steam then others should be allowed to with in reason with out resorting to booting people off. Chen Zen and John this is the karate forum please either discuss the topic or its deviations or start a new topic .


Jim, shoshinkan and.Brian S.
My Apologies for jumping in your shoes.





Thanks Andy


Edited by ANDY44 (10/14/06 07:52 AM)

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#289842 - 10/14/06 07:40 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Umbra_777]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Quote:

This is the truth- you can either fight or you can't. You can either draw or sing or you can't.


In order to refute this point we need look no further than the U.S. Army. Either it is possible to train people to be fighters or the Army has an amazing ability to recruit only those with natural talent.




Agreed

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#289843 - 10/14/06 08:33 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Andy44 wrote
Quote:


Hi John. Instead of getting angry and going way off topic can you direct me to any discussions on clinch work on the forum?





I don't know of a specific link to send you Andy. Clinch is grappling. Perhaps you might try the grappling forum maybe?

But Andy, are YOU being a smart-ass, lol? How often do I get angry with people here? If it weren't for some schmuck with all of 6 posts to his name zooming in here, all the way from Oblivion, I might have reacted differently. But you're not going to start your posting history sailing sh*t to me, that's just the way it is.

As for the rest of you, sail onward my brothers.


Quote:


And regards booting people off the forum well as I see it if you guys want to let off steam then others should be allowed to with in reason with out resorting to booting people off.





Again Andy, I'm sure that somewhere within your infinite wisdom, you can discern the subtle differences between "blowing off steam" and basic sh*t-talk about a person.

You know, you can BLOW as much as you want around here (and I'm sure Unsu does his share). But dialing in on a person and letting the chips fly isn't going to work - particularly with me. Especially if you're a noob. Life isn't always fair. I'm not saying he should be banned, but there is NOTHING wrong with giving someone a little fair warning. I'm not one to be triffled with.


Quote:


Chen Zen and John this is the karate forum please either discuss the topic or its deviations or start a new topic.





Then why don't YOU begin by doing so yourself instead of chaning the topic to defend Unsu?



-John

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#289844 - 10/14/06 08:44 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814



John I am not defending anybody or taking sides or trying to be be a sma##t '#ss so lighten up please. He said what he said you said what you said I said what I have said and others have said what they think.
So where is the clinch training? And I thought you trained clinch? Clinch would come in to the original topic being that it is said boxers do clinch on the negative side to escape strikes where as it is said that grapplers might use the clinch for offense and defensive.
Where karate ka stand in the clinch would be I suppose for throws or fighting in clinch distance with strikes etc.

Ok speaking of kata unless we are going off topic I have been looking at some kata application from Ian aeberneathy using the heians.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.asp

Thoughts??

The initial question?
Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. How many believe and train that boxing hands are better then Karate hands in the street?

Quote from Ian aberneathy's website

The term 'guard' refers to the position in which the hands are held when fighting. There are many differing opinions on which is the 'correct' or 'best' guard position. So where should we hold our hands in order to effectively fight and defend ourselves? Should the hands be held high, as in boxing? Or should they be held lower, as in modern karate? Why all the variations? In this article I'd like to explore these questions, and in particular look at the use and evolution of the guard in karate.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/The_Karate_Guard.asp


Again thoughts any body?



Edited by ANDY44 (10/14/06 09:34 AM)

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#289845 - 10/14/06 09:29 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Andy44 wrote
Quote:


John I am not defending anybody or taking sides or trying to be be a sma##t '#ss so lighten up please.





You see Andy, right there is your problem! I WAS being light-hearted when I asked if you were being a smartass. I ďthoughtĒ that tone might have come across through my use of the ďlolĒ, but I suppose not. READ, Andy! Read. Try and discern the tone of a personís post man!


Quote:


He said what he said you said what you said I said what I have said and others have said what they think.




What is this, ďCat in the Hat?! Thanks Doctor Seuss! Iíll remember that.


Quote:


So where is the clinch training? And I thought you trained clinch?





ME?! No! Iím into hardcore STREET training man, I donít do all that wrasliní and stuff Ė itís for p*ssies and f&gs


Quote:


Clinch would come in to the original topic being that it is said boxers do clinch on the negative side to escape strikes where as it is said that grapplers might use the clinch for offense and defensive.





Iíve heard that, yep. Maybe you should start a thread?


Quote:


Where karate ka stand in the clinch would be I suppose for throws or fighting in clinch distance with strikes etc.




Sounds pretty close to accurate. MMA guys do the same thing Ė from what Iíve bee told.


Quote:


Thoughts??





No thoughts at the moment Andy, Iím experiencing mushien.


-John

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#289846 - 10/14/06 09:45 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814

Quote:


No thoughts at the moment Andy, Iím experiencing mushien.






Thanks John. I will try to read much much harder . specifically the humour part
After you, have had your enlightening experience with "mushien"( I prefer expereinces with the enlightened female members of our specie myself ) do you think we could discuss some of the relevant topics?
Iím not sure the boxers I know have knowledge of Zen or mushien.
I was looking at also discussing clinch work. The different aspects. There is an article on the guard what do you think John or anybody else not experiencing "mushien" at this moment in time ?






Edited by ANDY44 (10/14/06 10:11 AM)

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#289847 - 10/14/06 10:15 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814


Edited by ANDY44 (10/14/06 10:17 AM)

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#289848 - 10/14/06 10:17 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Quote:


People can and do forget fundamentals. People can and do make mistakes. They can totally omit key basics of a sound delivery system. That doesn't make the delivery system bad -- only the fighter making use of it.

I'd still rather train with my hands up high like a boxer than at my hip - wouldn't you?












Quote from Ian aberneathy's website

The term 'guard' refers to the position in which the hands are held when fighting. There are many differing opinions on which is the 'correct' or 'best' guard position. So where should we hold our hands in order to effectively fight and defend ourselves? Should the hands be held high, as in boxing? Or should they be held lower, as in modern karate? Why all the variations? In this article I'd like to explore these questions, and in particular look at the use and evolution of the guard in karate.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/The_Karate_Guard.asp


What are your thoughts on the article?

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#289849 - 10/14/06 07:43 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: ANDY44]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

This is the truth- you can either fight or you can't. You can either draw or sing or you can't.


In order to refute this point we need look no further than the U.S. Army. Either it is possible to train people to be fighters or the Army has an amazing ability to recruit only those with natural talent.




Agreed




Well geniuses I was in the military and I can tell you that learning tactics and strategy as applied to weapons aided fighting is not throwing hands. Even as a SpecOps guy, that SCARs crap or that Marines or Army Hodge Podge Ryu is not as valid as real karate training. It's Jack-of-all-trades junk like JKD. Journeyman tactics forever, IMO.

You can either fight or you can't. Most MAs training will NOT teach you to be a self-preservationist. It can enhance your skill-set, but 98% of the stuff out there will not prepare you for the real, MMA included. It can teach you how to fight for the sake of glory or some perverse sado-masochistic thrill, but it won't teach you to fight to save you and yours when the time counts, in everyday life.

Chen Zen- Not only have I been on this forum years before you started posting here and was busy with the kids over on KFM.online, I was the first to propose that FA.com get a "karate" forum. You're all so smart, but you have no ability to discern what's right there in front of you. How come I know exactly who everyone on all these forums is, but none can even begin to "see me". Hahaha. Get 1 clue...

Jacky Koggy- I have been on here numerous times in various guises. I changed my name twice because this site lost my info when it crashed. I got booted recently because I posted a disguised expletive just like you did when you had the nerve to call me a d-ck. Now I'm back as "Cloud Hands" laying the smack down from above. Anyway this is an anonymous forum where those who are with a clue can use their common sense to figure out who I am. I don't like you and never will. That's not a prerequisite for posting an opinion on these so-called forums. My opinion is you are a MMA bandwagoneer who has no clue as to what real karate is, but then again most karate people don't have a clue what real and good karate is. Some of us knew how to fight for decades before this whole broke NHB idea came along. Be original, bruh'.

I would love to "train" with you if I'm ever in the Hills of N.C.. Doubt that'll ever happen though. Hit me up if you're ever in a real city and state specifically San Antonio.

Yes karate guys keep their guard up. They train kata in a different manner and for different reasons. It's bigger than fighting. It's more refined than you could imagine. Which btw is all the non-karateka can do when it comes to the intent of chambering and karate training. Real karate that is, which comprises only about 5% or < of the karate out there. Real karate guys have NEVER entered the UFC (and never will), Fred Ettish and Randy Rhodes included. Japanised, fake, jiyu kunite focused schoolboy karate yes. Real fighting karate- No.

Get it, got it? Okay. Now go back to your JKD and get off the karate forum. Mediocrity refined to the normal degree, what goals people set. Bruce would not have agreed that what you do is JKD btw, because only HE did JKD. Learn about your "art" before you comment on a real MA.

Keep your hands up and don't forget to protect ya' neck. Watch it with those curse words and who you talk to like that. You don't know me, so quit being presumptuous...


Edited by Unsu (10/14/06 07:47 PM)

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#289850 - 10/14/06 08:01 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Unsu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Hi bryan "The Seer"

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#289851 - 10/14/06 08:23 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


You can either fight or you can't. Most MAs training will NOT teach you to be a self-preservationist. It can enhance your skill-set, but 98% of the stuff out there will not prepare you for the real, MMA included. It can teach you how to fight for the sake of glory or some perverse sado-masochistic thrill, but it won't teach you to fight to save you and yours when the time counts, in everyday life.





So whatís your point, to just come in and tell everyone weíre full of sh*t? Feeling is mutual.


Quote:


Jacky Koggy- I have been on here numerous times in various guises. I changed my name twice because this site lost my info when it crashed. I got booted recently because I posted a disguised expletive just like you did when you had the nerve to call me a d-ck.





Wow, I had the ďnerveĒ to call a pr*ck and pr*ck. Imagine that. I just canít see doing anything but speaking the truth perhaps. I mean, it isnít like your being a pr*ck is cutting edge news or anything.


Quote:


Now I'm back as "Cloud Hands" laying the smack down from above.





You could be back as ďGas Clouds from UranusĒ and it wonít mean a thing nimrod. Nothing you say gives you any credibility. You simply try and speak louder and louder to be heard, yet you deafen the people from your actual message. Youíre the one that should get a clue.


Quote:


I don't like you and never will.





Iím not losing a minute of sleep. But thatís good that you donít like me. It means Iím doing something right.



Quote:


That's not a prerequisite for posting an opinion on these so-called forums. My opinion is you are a MMA bandwagoneer who has no clue as to what real karate is, but then again most karate people don't have a clue what real and good karate is. Some of us knew how to fight for decades before this whole broke NHB idea came along. Be original, bruh'.





Thanks for your opinion. My opinion is, you donít know me well enough to make an informed opinion. You and I have never met. Weíve exchanged posts here perhaps but, you donít honestly think you can know anyone well enough from a few posts to draw opinions do you? I mean, a person would have to be a complete FOOL to think he can do that. And I know that your ego is so freakiní huge that you CERTAINLY wouldnít consider yourself a fool do you?

Of course, a fool is as a fool does. In this case, thatís thinking you can draw an opinion of me from an internet forum. A simple, little, anonymous forum. Yet you are doing just that! So, you do the math there fella.


Quote:


I would love to "train" with you if I'm ever in the Hills of N.C.. Doubt that'll ever happen though. Hit me up if you're ever in a real city and state specifically San Antonio.




The Crucible Gym
5940 Germanton Rd
Winston-Salem, NC
27105

Youíre welcome anytime. Be there or be square. NowÖwhat was your address again???



Quote:


Real karate that is, which comprises only about 5% or < of the karate out there.





Which is (Iím certain) what YOU just happen to be practicing, of course. You are one of those ďfewĒ.


Quote:


Real karate guys have NEVER entered the UFC (and never will), Fred Ettish and Randy Rhodes included. Japanised, fake, jiyu kunite focused schoolboy karate yes. Real fighting karate- No.





Iím sorry, but thatís the lamest thing Iíve ever heard. Heíd have sang a different song had some actual karate guys won a few of those fights. Seeing as how they DIDNíT, of course heís going to say that. What else would anyone really expect?

By the way, I never realized that Ozzy Osbourne's guitarist fought in the UFC?? Did anyone else realize that?


Quote:


Get it, got it? Okay. Now go back to your JKD and get off the karate forum. Mediocrity refined to the normal degree, what goals people set. Bruce would not have agreed that what you do is JKD btw, because only HE did JKD. Learn about your "art" before you comment on a real MA.





Your momma.

And I have bro. Iíve been around for a while. But you know, all this ďtalkĒ is just that Ė talk. Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, that's all you ever do....without actually EVER saying anything in the process. You just spout the same circular rhetoric over and over and over and overÖ

Quote:

Keep your hands up and don't forget to protect ya' neck.





Thanks for that advice old man. Where did you happen to come by such ďadvancedĒ informashun?!??!??!??!?! Did they teach ya that in tha MILITARY??!? Wow, you must be like GI Joe or something. I can just picture all of those jarheads doing kata.



P*ssoff,

-John

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#289852 - 10/14/06 09:25 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Unsu]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Unsu,

Get it straight, I dont care who you are. Period. I dont care how long you've been here or if it was before me, although your registration date would indicate otherwise. And while you may have "asked" for a karate forum I CREATED the JKD forum. You mean nothing to me. Your washed down military jujitsu or your prefered style of "Karotty" means even less. And as for your views on MA, I dont need your approval. Or anyone elses. The real MA, the real members here, they know how to sniff out BS when they see it, so dont lash out when you stink.

As for handing out challenges,I notice you didnt extend that same challenge to me as you would John as he is much farther from you than I am. And Im soon to be closer as I will be moving to OK city within the next two months. Not that it matters. I dont fight students anyways. Besides, when you challenge people on a internet based forum it makes it truly apparent that you are no more than an outsider looking in.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289853 - 10/14/06 09:41 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
lol...guys: it's Bryan Cyr (pronounced 'seer') - aka dr. krunkenstein or how about multiversed.

I'm SURE you've already had all these arguments/exchanges with him before.

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#289854 - 10/14/06 09:43 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Mutliversed. Moron. Figures. Felt good to roast him though.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289855 - 10/14/06 10:16 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

.... aka dr. krunkenstein or how about multiversed.

I'm SURE you've already had all these arguments/exchanges with him before.





Yep, I knew it was him when he mentioned San Antonio. I couldn't remember his name though. Same old tired bullsh*t though. Nothing's changed there.


-John

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#289856 - 10/14/06 10:17 PM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I hear ya.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289857 - 10/15/06 05:14 AM Re: Boxing hands better the Karate hands poll. [Re: Chen Zen]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Ok enoughs enough, JKogas and Unsu - good work guys you just got this thread locked for acting like kids.

Take your private battles to pm.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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