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#289681 - 09/29/06 02:14 AM Types of Karate
PaulHart Offline
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Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
Types of Karate. I wonder how many there are. I figured to make a list and see if anyone can add anything to it. I am not talking styles of Karate here, just types of Karate.

Classical Karate Karate done in the old way like Itosu and Miyagi style. Usually a pretty hard work out, with forms a focus.

Traditional Karate Old style Karate that uses new training methods as well as old. They are willing to add what works in the training.

Sport Karate Karate done for trophies or fun. This is a style that is done more by the younger crowd.

Made up Karate Karate that is done by a person who decided he had more knowledge than the other styles and founded his own. Usually this style comes from people who cannot go the distance and learn the style they started in. Unfortunately they teach others so the style continues.

China Hand Karate Karate done by those who study and practice pre Itosu Karate. Usually you can tell these systems because they use the old Kanji for Karate, which means China or Tang Hand.

Can any add to this?
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#289682 - 09/29/06 05:32 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: PaulHart]
Dobbersky Offline
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I wouldn't know where the style I practice/teach would fall into which category AS Ashihara is not a 'sport karate' I wouldn't consider it as traditional karate so where would it fit.
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#289683 - 09/29/06 05:55 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: Dobbersky]
PaulHart Offline
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It seems they call it Fighting Karate, but since it came from Kyokushin, which to me is a Hard Sport Style, I would probably put it in that Catagory. IMHO, Kyokushin is the best Sport Karate out there.

Maybe I should add Modern Karate?
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#289684 - 09/29/06 09:14 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: PaulHart]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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I think mine is a mix of classical,tradiional,and made up.
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#289685 - 09/29/06 11:16 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: PaulHart]
Kysogkram Offline
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Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 137
Loc: Denmark
Yes, add modern karate. Labeling Ashihara Karate as Sport Karate is a bit of a tough pill for me to swallow .

I'd say that to be labeled as Sports Karate your curriculum should be geared specifically towards tournaments or sparring. IMO this is far from the case for Ashihara karate.
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#289686 - 09/29/06 11:50 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: PaulHart]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Types of Karate. I wonder how many there are. I figured to make a list and see if anyone can add anything to it. I am not talking styles of Karate here, just types of Karate.

Classical Karate Karate done in the old way like Itosu and Miyagi style. Usually a pretty hard work out, with forms a focus.

Traditional Karate Old style Karate that uses new training methods as well as old. They are willing to add what works in the training.

Sport Karate Karate done for trophies or fun. This is a style that is done more by the younger crowd.

Made up Karate Karate that is done by a person who decided he had more knowledge than the other styles and founded his own. Usually this style comes from people who cannot go the distance and learn the style they started in. Unfortunately they teach others so the style continues.

China Hand Karate Karate done by those who study and practice pre Itosu Karate. Usually you can tell these systems because they use the old Kanji for Karate, which means China or Tang Hand.

Can any add to this?




My system in this frame of thinking would be Traditional and Chinese Te. And USA/made up My main Goju-ryu Instructor became Soke of his Heta-ryu (Named after his wife, she was a then Sandan) system but kept its Goju base. I was already Sandan then and didn't study his Heta-ryu system, he moved to Kansas. Was it an improvment, venture of love or Ego, it still looked like weapon base Goju to me.

Initally I was shocked that you place Miyagi's direction the same Itosu's high school/college or school base system. Until I pondered, Miyagi did create the Gai-sai kata series to make it easier for the young or new students to learn Goju. You may have a point.

Wouldn't Kyoshin-kia and Ashihara just be Traditonal based made up Japanese systems, I mean just because an Asian made them up don't make them Classical or mordern.

Where would the Eceltic systems fit? No katas, bunkias or bowing, mostly self defense based. Some use the name Karate because its better known, but really its something else.


Edited by Neko456 (09/29/06 11:58 AM)
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#289687 - 09/29/06 07:53 PM Re: Types of Karate [Re: PaulHart]
hedkikr Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
OK...Ashihara & Enshin can be Fighting Karate

Let's not forget exercise krotty (Tai Bo & aerobic kick boking), XMA or performance krotty.

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#289688 - 09/30/06 12:23 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: hedkikr]
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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#289689 - 09/30/06 02:52 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: hedkikr]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
I think I would term them Modern Karate. If a man invents his own system after less than 30 years of training, I would refer to that as Made up Karate, more than 30 years and he uses the style he trained in as the base, I would term it Modern Karate. Fighting Karate should apply to all styles. There are those that think Karate is about building a better person, however, IMHO Karate is about life protection. Be it your own, or the Kings or whomever. If they want to change Karate to be a "Do" system then let them do Aikido, Iaido or Kendo.

The exercise stuff I do not consider Karate at all, it is just dance, but then again most Karate today is just dance.
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#289690 - 09/30/06 03:19 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: PaulHart]
jc4199 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 362
Loc: Pevely, MO U.S.A
We do a lot of everything. Our style has its roots in Suri-estu with a bit of judo, Muay Thai and some Sambo.

We do alot of Kata but we also have students the compeat in sport karate, kickboxing, and MMA

Quote:

To this day, Shudo-Kan maintains the high integrity of traditional Martial Arts, yet applies the realistic and modern aspects for its self-defense system



out of our hand book

I guess we are traditional
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#289691 - 10/02/06 04:25 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: jc4199]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
I use to think that the only "real" Karate was the styles that had there origin in Okinawa. While I still believe that the Karate should be from Okinawa to be real Karate, I have seen some of the junk that has come from the island lately, along with some of the people. I have not been inpressed with it. I truly prefer the "Old" ways, when Karate was for combat and people didn't care about safety, they only cared about training and ability. One of my friends went to meet a guy to train the other day and in a phone conversation safety was one of the things he looked for when training. As a whole, I think the martial arts, no, the people are getting weaker and less able to do what needs to be done. This shows in our Governments, our Lives and our attitudes. When is it okay to invent your own style? I wonder why anyone would ever think to do that, I have years left to learn on my style and a whole lot of other things to work on, why fix what isn't broke. Are others styles really lacking that much, or am I seeing it wrong?
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#289692 - 10/02/06 07:49 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: PaulHart]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
paul, no one has the monopoly on whats 'real'. winning trophies is just as real to someone who trains like 100 years ago in a backyard. -it comes down to what are YOU looking for? not what image you want, but which direction in the Art you persoanlly want to study. for many, the superficial is ok....shouldn't affect what you do.

p.s. Heta-ryu ? lol 'heta' means 'bad' as in, 'crappy'. I cracked up when I heard that. must be a joke post whoever mentioned it.

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#289693 - 10/02/06 11:06 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Real Karate is not a sport, but then some people think it is. As you stated its all what you want and look to for in your art.

But IMHO Real Karate is not a sport, there is a difference in the Sport aspect of Karate (I call it playing a heavy game of tag) and Not Karate used to defend one self.

By the way self expression is a part of why systems change name, Heta-ryu is a comprehensive art based on 25-30 years of study, embracing a more Martial aspect of training. It was his self expression, I'm surprise you can proclaim as crap having not seen it or trained in it.

If its ain't a Pure Okinawan art its crap, what art that comes to the USA stays pure. Look at USA Goju, its different then original Goju-Kia but its far from crap imho.
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#289694 - 10/02/06 11:19 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
neko. look up the word 'Heta' in a Japanese-English dictionary. the WORD literally means: "To be poor at something." or "unskilled".

since you are using it alongside the word "Ryu"...it is completely legitimate to think you also intend the Japanese meaning of the word 'heta' (as oppossed to another culture's Female name).

therefore 'Heta-Ryu' translates to 'Unskilled school'. and I think stuff like that is hillarious.

I'm sure the training is grand. but I thought the name was an intentional joke, as if taken from an anime site or something.

http://members.fortunecity.com/fnaa2/story/ch5.html
Quote:

...."Excellent." Heta shut the panel once again. "You now have mastered the arts of Goju Ryu Karate and Kamiya Kasshin Ryu fencing. I hope I programmed them well . . ."

Gadget Boy stood up, jumping off the table. "Hya! Hya!" In two punches, Heta-chan's room was destroyed.





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#289695 - 10/03/06 01:14 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: Ed_Morris]
PaulHart Offline
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Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
I am sorry Ed, my tone may seem a bit down. I have absolutly no problem with Sport Kick Boxing or Sport Karate, just that it does not have the same intention, IMHO, as the real deal. I am really tired of People in general, and Karateka in particular who think they are much better than the next guy who don't really have a clue. I have been in Martial Arts for 33 years and I still learn new stuff weekly, sometimes daily. BTW, the Heta-Ryu thing also made me laugh, you are not alone. Perhaps if we could see the Kanji, but until then it will always be the "Unskilled Style" in my mind. Perhaps a name change would be considered by the guy who invented it. #0 years is okay, but were they all in one system? I have never heard of it, so I will not judge it. Back to my basic ideal, your rank is what you earn on the floor, it is not wrapped around your waist and has no color. You may be Judan, but if you cant walk the walk, who cares.
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#289696 - 10/03/06 01:52 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: PaulHart]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Everything is not based on Japanese/Okinawan cultures, however Heta is defined in Japanese. It has nothing to do with Heta-ryu (Heta is short for Tenaka-Heta Queen of Egypt during XXVI dynasty, married to Psametik III). His system taught the extra methods and weapons of this martial art system.

Though I see how you came to your decision with use of the term RYU.



It just a way of self expression, still its base was Trad Orgin, just his way/Method/Ryu of taking his art to its roots, as he thought it to be.

I also feel sport Karate is just a small part of training and totally different from the the Intent of Tote-jitsu.


Edited by Neko456 (10/03/06 01:56 AM)

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#289697 - 10/03/06 07:43 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
hmmm...never thought of a term such as 'ryu' as self-expression.

the fighting methods from Egypt during XXVI dynasty...how exacly was that passed down? via heiroglyphic training manuals?

besides, psametik III doesn't seem to have had a very good martial track record.
http://www.lexicorient.com/e.o/psametik_3.htm
overrun-captured-killed. Heta-Ryu system from da Nile.

this is what happens when people make up history and mix/match terms they don't know. The actual training could be good Neko, but the name is pretty funny.

sorry to go off-topic.

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#289698 - 10/03/06 10:59 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: PaulHart]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Mr. Hart:



Does not all traditional become classical at some point?

And genuinely fear we require another category financial "Greed"/"Business": Quantity and no interest in quality at any level? If money changes hands for it, they'll do it...

How about... "Core karate"? Arts-practices which seek to use the study as a helpful vehicle beyond the surface physical? Using the fundamental information toward a ~different approach~. No trophies here, just a lot of polishing...

Jeff

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#289699 - 10/03/06 11:09 AM Types of Karate [Re: PaulHart]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Mr. Hart:

I would wager I could study anyplace in the world and find the same chuckleheads, fools, or skilled practitioners & arts. The physical location is not necessary the "magnet" for a good ~martial compass~.

Is any art ~less valuable~ if the study is earnest? If someone studies an art with a lineage connection to the Ryukyu islands, but no "live" connection... does that mean the knowledge/practice/intent is somehow flawed?



Jeff

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#289700 - 10/03/06 02:23 PM Re: Types of Karate [Re: Ronin1966]
PaulHart Offline
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Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
No, but to be able to term it Karate, I feel it should have it's origins in the Ryukyu Islands. You could call it H2H, kick Boxing, whatever. There is an art here called Defendo that is really a decent way of combat, does that make it Karate? I do not think it does. Kind of like trying to get a Buck Knife from Gerber, it cant be done, but that doesn't mean the Gerber blades are in any way bad.
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#289701 - 10/03/06 02:36 PM Re: Types of Karate [Re: PaulHart]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

No, but to be able to term it Karate, I feel it should have it's origins in the Ryukyu Islands. You could call it H2H, kick Boxing, whatever. There is an art here called Defendo that is really a decent way of combat, does that make it Karate? I do not think it does. Kind of like trying to get a Buck Knife from Gerber, it cant be done, but that doesn't mean the Gerber blades are in any way bad.




From the ryukyu islands,okie dokie. I'm from Arkansas,does that count?

Some people call tkd karate,sadly.

I think when people get too caught up on how pure their lineage is the other aspects of their training suffer. Doesn't matter to me what you call yours,so it shouldnt' matter what I call mine.
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#289702 - 10/03/06 03:08 PM Re: Types of Karate [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
there are only 2 types of Karate: one that is, and one that isn't.

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#289703 - 10/03/06 04:02 PM Re: Types of Karate [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
This is an interesting thread and I must confess that I am a little equivocal about the whole thing. I have pounced on other folk who have laid claim to ambiguous heritages in the hopes of steeping themselves in the waters of historcal styles to tie some form of authenticity to what they do. This is becuase it is misleading. This is despite technical merit of the school...good, bad, mediocre...I was after truth.

On the other hand, general labels or categorical headings --I have no problems with them. Is it a Kleenex or another brand of facial tissue? Is it a Band-Aid or an adhesive, cut protector? By this, I mean is Karate a generic term with apparent similarities in technical reportoire? Or is it a specific title for a particular art that needs a lot of qualification to make it THE art?

By one definition, you would have any striking art, despite utility or its new emergence in the martial arts world and only owing it's heritage to Okinawa, under the same umbrella of Karate. However, something promoted elsewhere, but birthed from the same antecedent art, labeled not karate. And perhaps the art studied elsewhere might be closer in look and feel than the newer art that is being promoted.

For me, it matters little what it is called, just that your honest about its heritage and you train well.

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#289704 - 10/03/06 04:09 PM Re: Types of Karate [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with Paul and Brian Karate should have a look and feel its should have it roots from Okinawa. But because it doesn't or is not called Karate doesn't make it less effective. I believe its time in training and belife in a system, alone with individual training effort that makes a fighter not what its called.

Let me tell you it still hurts if they hit you.
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#289705 - 10/11/06 01:37 PM Re: Types of Karate [Re: Neko456]
steelwater Offline
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Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 222
The style my instructor calls "American Karate" is a mixture of Traditional, Classical, and Sport. We do have competition classes (separate from the other classes), however we do point spar in class rarely. Most of the time it's "chain sparring", which is what my instructor calls our controlled free sparring.
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#289706 - 10/12/06 01:52 PM Re: Types of Karate [Re: steelwater]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
There are only 2 styles of karate;

Good Karate

Bad Karate

God that was easy.
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#289707 - 10/12/06 02:37 PM Re: Types of Karate [Re: JohnL]
MattJ Online   happy
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

There are only 2 styles of karate;

Good Karate

Bad Karate

God that was easy.





Great answer, JohnL. That reminds me of a quote by Joe Lewis, when asked what rank he was, back in the 1960's. He said (paraphrasing) "Look, there are two kinds of black belts. Good ones and bad ones. I'm a good one."
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#289708 - 10/13/06 10:09 AM Re: Types of Karate [Re: JohnL]
Dobbersky Offline
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 892
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
I'd agree but disagree, yes I agree there are 2 types but I would say it would be

* good karateka
* bad karateka

there is no bad karate

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