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#289209 - 09/27/06 01:42 PM Sparring Techniques
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884

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#289210 - 09/27/06 01:53 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
that was a 'got milk' commercial.

?

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#289211 - 09/27/06 02:13 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
There... thats better.

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#289212 - 09/27/06 02:33 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: oldman]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
"got bounce?"

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#289213 - 09/27/06 02:34 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: oldman]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Nice find, Oldman. I may yet figure out that terminology.
_________________________
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#289214 - 09/27/06 04:48 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: MattJ]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
He had good form. When he quit showing the techniques actually used against resistance i began to wonder how many of these would actually be good to use in combat and I didnt find many. Way to many head high kicks.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289215 - 09/27/06 08:03 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: oldman]
Xibalba Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Lansing, MI, USA
Nice find! Thanks for sharing.

Since I am assuming this is up for discussion, here is what I think:

The good:
The fighter demonstrating the techniques had great rhythm and timing. If you watch him carefully, you can see him match his opponent's rhythm, and then break that rhythm when he attacks (this timing is crystal clear in the demo parts of the video, although if you watch the fights carefully you can pick it up there too). His attacks are starting just as his opponent starts to bounce forward, and landing when his opponent lands on the forward foot. Great timing, and a good reason to break off, attack, or change your rhythm whenever anyone tries to lull you into complacency by matching your rhythm. (Does all this make sense? Sometimes I am at a loss for words at this stuff, and wish we were all actually in the dojo so we could show each other what we mean rather than type about it.)

The bad:
All the round kicks to the head. They seem to work for this gentleman (and I have been known to be a head-kicker myself), but my first preference is for lower, straight-line attacks - my favorite being a lead leg side kick right into the ribs or breadbasket . I especially like to time it like the gent in the video - lull my opponent into a rhythm, and then break that rhythm to plant my heel in their gut as they bounce forward.

Again, thanks for the video!

Mike

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#289216 - 09/27/06 08:36 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Chen Zen]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Quote:

He had good form. When he quit showing the techniques actually used against resistance i began to wonder how many of these would actually be good to use in combat and I didnt find many. Way to many head high kicks.




erm, it is a points sparring video.............
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#289217 - 09/27/06 11:02 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
So? Sparring is training and if your training is intended to protect you then you must train in the manner in which you choose to defend yourself. Anything else is wasted energy. If he chooses to defend himself with head height kicks then that is his perrogative, but not a good choice of tactics in my opinion.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289218 - 09/27/06 11:07 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
The bouncing,I hate the friggin bouncing. It looked good and quick,but not my cup of tea.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#289219 - 09/27/06 11:42 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: oldman]
bo-ken Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I have never been a fan of bouncing. And when people I know do it I always try to sweep them just because I hate it. But that dude had some nice speed. I wish I could transition from hands to feet that quickly. I didn't mind all the head kicks it was point sparring after all. When I point spar I mostly use backfists to the head the entire time.

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#289220 - 09/28/06 09:13 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: BrianS]
bahamasfighter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 6
I think the guy has good form and I think this is design more toward tournament fighting as you can see that he demonstrates it for the tournament. Reasons why he chose so many head kicks is because these score 3 points and is the easiest way to win a fight.

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#289221 - 09/28/06 09:50 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: bahamasfighter]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
good people, please, please - it is soley designed for points sparring and in that context it is excellent.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#289222 - 09/28/06 03:57 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
bahamasfighter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 6
If anyone has any other clips similar to this, please post or PM me, thanks!

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#289223 - 09/28/06 05:03 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: bahamasfighter]
ShorinjiSeisan Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 51
Here's an interesting clip:

PLEASE NOTE! The audio on this clip is NOT WORK SAFE!!
Turn down your speakers if you are watching this around co-workers, children, or your mom.

http://www.vidilife.com/video_play_83523...lls_compilation

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#289224 - 10/02/06 04:17 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
What rubbish! Only good part is the guys timing.

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#289225 - 10/02/06 09:40 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Ives]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Wasnt rubbish ive never liked bouncing but the guy was fast he had good technique and he knew what he was talking about. 8/10 for that, -1 for the bouncing
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#289226 - 10/02/06 10:11 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: crablord]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Quote:

Wasnt rubbish ive never liked bouncing but the guy was fast he had good technique and he knew what he was talking about. 8/10 for that, -1 for the bouncing




uh, O.K.

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#289227 - 10/02/06 10:16 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Ives]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
damn straight
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#289228 - 10/02/06 11:36 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: crablord]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
ahuh!!

You seriously mean this guy shows good technique?
In that case we both have different ideas on good technique.

Take a good look at the mawashi geri he performs. Timing is good, positioning good, but technically poor.
_________________________
Ives

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#289229 - 10/02/06 11:42 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: crablord]
Spade Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
Quote:

Wasnt rubbish ive never liked bouncing but the guy was fast he had good technique and he knew what he was talking about. 8/10 for that, -1 for the bouncing




10 - 1 = 9



He can transition from punching combinations to head kicks pretty quick, but he annoys me with all the bouncing.
_________________________
"always paddle your own canoe." - Cord

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#289230 - 10/02/06 11:53 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Ives]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
explain how it was poor
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#289231 - 10/03/06 03:25 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: crablord]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Lack of Power?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289232 - 10/03/06 06:01 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Chen Zen]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
well he want trying to knock the other blokes head in :P
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#289233 - 10/03/06 10:06 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: crablord]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I know. However, he couldnt if he wanted to. Momentum works agains him
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289234 - 10/05/06 07:53 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: crablord]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Quote:

explain how it was poor




The techniques delivered look unfinished. The mawashi-geri for instance is just a leg movement i.m.o.
It can hurt. Like hell even if you hit one of the right spots. But his looks crap. Like one I would pull two years ago becasue I didn't knew better.
_________________________
Ives

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#289235 - 10/05/06 07:58 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Ives]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I shall stay out of this one as my tournament days are long gone and I have around 'zero' intrest anyhow.

I think the guy doing the demo is an ex English champion and I have a video clip of him seriously kicking butt in semi contact, which I shall try and link up.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#289236 - 10/05/06 08:09 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
I.m.o. this vid shows poor technique. Maybe he can actually kick it. But I'm sceptic about this flick.
And hey, it's just my opinion...
_________________________
Ives

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#289237 - 10/05/06 10:10 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Ives]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
no problems, I dont give a flying &%" about tournament sparrin ganyhow! LOL
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#289238 - 10/05/06 11:33 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
When I made my comment about his lack of power it was because of the mawashi geri. He puts his weight forward in his punches. This isnt necessarily bad but when he goes for the kick, he moves his weight back by pushing off with the kicking foot. Moving this weight back is robbing his kick of power and snap, as well as speed Im sure.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289239 - 10/06/06 12:12 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Chen Zen]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
Chen good point.

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#289240 - 10/06/06 02:56 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: bo-ken]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Do what I can. thanks.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289241 - 10/06/06 05:29 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Chen Zen]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Exactly! He also doesn't seem to give the geri any 'hip'.
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Ives

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#289242 - 10/07/06 04:20 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Ives]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
http://media.putfile.com/Point-Fighting-Karate


I think the guy is the same as in the first video on this link, either way it is quite a good video despite the 'repeat' mode used.

He certainly has a sweet hook kick and nice takedown technique.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#289243 - 10/08/06 04:40 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
forgive me my ignorance oh forms gods......

but id take one of thoe "pnches" or kicks in the neck anytime of the day.

he's real fast, and he's got great fighting spirit, but in all sernoisness it looks like a cat fight, he scrambles in like he's in mid seziure then , yes, i'll admit lands his glove on a target aright, but his postre.....bodydynamics.....bone alignment....

alot of people spar with those or similar rules don;t they?, who the heck am i to say anything i guess. but if anyone wants to read yet another faceless opnion id say he's a great guy to spar with.....but that's not ture karate, not by a long shot.
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its not supposed to make sense

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#289244 - 10/08/06 04:44 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Therein lies the problem. The sparring isnt alive. To truely use any art effectively there must be resistance. Its like lifting weights, if their is no resistance then you experience no growth.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289245 - 10/08/06 04:47 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i wonder how much "resistence" there wold be if you swpet the little french man
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#289246 - 10/08/06 04:55 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Exactly. This is why I dont like the whole point system that many MA have adopted in sparring and competition. Fighting is more than stop and go, high speed slapping matches. Id wager that either one of those guys would have immediately lost if they were properly tackled and mounted.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289247 - 10/08/06 10:37 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
agreed. but i still won't sleep tonight unless i do say that the guy is very good at what he dose, i mean fightuing under what ever set of rules his style uses. very quick and athletic!!

but i wish to hell these guys would just fes up and say "yes we are sport karate!!!!" i honestly feel that the pratical fighting applications they make use of in their kumite is more abstract then the idea's presented in kata!!!

and the bouncing.....im really sorry guys......but the idea of bouncing while you fight was made popular by playng the video game street fighter!!!!! i don't care what obscure reason anyone presents to me, im set in my ways!

as far as sparing these guys are great, please don't get me wrong, these videos are proably taken from national events or something, he is fast, real fast. But he lacks a certin something that I'm realy not sure what to call, all i can say is that what these guys do is exactly what and why my ex army boxing grandfather laughs when i tell him im in karate.

sparing---kick ass

self defence----ass kicked
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#289248 - 10/08/06 11:34 PM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sure he is athletic and fast but the speed is an illusion. The thing thats missing is the power. You cant trade one for the other. There must be a balance. He was definately a good point sparrer. No debates on that but the reality is that most impact in sport sparring is little more than a slap and that just doesnt cut it to me when talking about realistic technique and training methods.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#289249 - 10/09/06 05:01 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: Chen Zen]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Guys and Gals, with respect the 'sport' vs 'real' debate is rather old - I agree with what you say, I don't do sport karate and havent for a long time.

I linked this video simply because we have people that do sport karate who might enjoy it. And also because some of the 'real' karateka on here might be able to say -

'Hey very good sport karate'.

I would wager the guy in the video would plant his fist firmly on the nose of the majority of us before we could blink an eye, and lets be frank in most self defence situations thats all you need.

Take it for what it is and not what it isnt!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#289250 - 10/09/06 08:32 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
And yet again the thread goes off at a tangent.

Let's be reasonable as to what the clip was. It shows point sparring with techniques broken down and explained in detail (if your french is OK) and then examples of these techniques shown as used in competition.

As such let's discuss it for what it is.

You have been given clear, concise explanations of techniques usable in point sparing competition, and a methodology for working and improving them. The videos of the guy showing them in competition also illustrate that what he is showing is usable in the competitions that they are designed for.

I'm sorry but saying that if he's taken to the ground and pounded doesn't cut it for me. The guy is good at what he does and fights under rules for which his technique is designed for. Take Randy or Chuck and put them in a point sparring context and they'd have their a$$e$ handed to them on a plate.

As for Ives comments that the guy has poor technique, I suggest you get on the mat with the guy in the video and show him how his technique is flawed.
_________________________
John L

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#289251 - 10/09/06 09:07 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: JohnL]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
hmmm, thats what i thought i was saying??

i agree (and thought i already did) he is damn fast and good at what he dose.

i'll take another swing at it, he spar's, so do i in fact!! and what constitutes a point in his system would not be considered in mine. his hook kicks were slaping with the toes and ball of the foot (futeki??) incorrect striking surface. his feet were almost always a few inches off the grond, sometimes they both were. his round house kicks however make mine look like a leg spasim!!

so i am taking this video for what it's worth to me, he dose explain some good combinations, but other then a fit young athletic male in his prime, i don't know many people that can just pop up a round house kick to the face like it's nobodies business!!

so i'l stick to what works for me, if we want to discus that then hey, i'm game!. his idea of throwing alternate punches is nothing ground breaking, yes for the last time he dose thorw a mean round house kick, maby he'll be as kool as chuck noris some day, if that day ever comes??, i'll still be sweeping ,ridgehand striking and throwing punches.

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its not supposed to make sense

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#289252 - 10/09/06 09:22 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: student_of_life]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
In relation to your hook kick comment, if he used the heel then serious injury could result, simple as that im afraid - this is semi contact points fighting and likely WUKO rules.

_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#289253 - 10/09/06 09:49 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: shoshinkan]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
yeah your right

sorry, but that was concerning my own expirence with the kick, in th estyle i pratice hook kicks are allowed, but the only part of the face allowed to be attacked is from the eyebrows to the chin, and as far to the sides as, but not including the ears. the reasoning is the same, the face is legal target, but the ears are to dangerous to risk, as well as the forehead or bck of the head.

looked to me like he was hiting behind the ear?? could be wrong.....

and again, with my style were expected to exercise control, serious injury resuts from neglegence- funakoshi. if yo want my 2 cents, he hit with his toes cause he was too far away and still wanted to look like a point. but hey, im probly off on a tangent again!!

_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#289254 - 10/09/06 09:53 AM Re: Sparring Techniques [Re: student_of_life]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
no your comments are fair but we need just to accept that it is a game of tag, a sport, it isn't real combat!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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