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#288987 - 09/27/06 12:58 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: ButterflyPalm]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Yeah Ed...don't be shy....topless.

(BTW, BF...I'm still waiting for a PM from my 'friend'. )

#288988 - 09/27/06 01:49 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
aoishi Offline

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Okay, I got it to work. I will limit myself to possible places of improvement as I see it. Please don't think I am saying I am better. Just trying to provide some comments like you requested.

1. Are you throwing those punches upside down and turning just at point of impact? If not, you should be.

2. Do you feel your feet properly "rooted" into the ground? We like to "grab" the floor before/when we punch.

3. You don't have much of a neck so it is hard to tell, but are your shoulders relaxed enough?

4. I didn't see enough "connection" with your koshi perhaps. I get the feeling those punches are pushed more than thrown like an arrow. Although, as Medulanet said, some punches should be thrown like the arro/ball and some not. Could be related to "koshi" issue.

5. Stepping before punching - We generally say you step before you punch and although I think there must be some overlap when moving fast like this, I wonder if you shouldn't be more cognizant of that when doing kata. It might also help with the "grabbing the floor" issue. I see this especially in the side punches. I think if you held your punch back a moment longer, so that it coincides with the hip rotation, it might be better.
6. Throwing leg out from koshi as opposed to "stepping".
This is another kind of advance way of thinking about it. Instead of stepping forward, it is better to think of it as throwing the leg out from the koshi.

That's all I came up with for now, and again, they are not really criticisms, but rather ways to think that may yield even more improvement on very good looking kata.

#288989 - 09/27/06 01:50 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
re: Sanchin - answer: No. lol

The only reason I didn't mind putting these out here is because it's stuff I'm not working on. we hardly even 'punch' in Goju. it's stand-up, open-hand, grappling-range, heal-palm, forearm/knee strikes, violent throws, head manipulation, neck-cranks...and murder. lol j/k (kinda).

If Goju belongs on video, the person teaching it to me will decided to put it there...or not.

The kata fukyugata san, is composed by an Okinawan student of Nagamine on Okinawa and not practiced in Japan. Ueshiro-ha has no branches in Japan as far as I know. It has the same look/feel as what the other basic Okinawan katas look like...their classic katas are a completely different story. Perhaps Japanese classic kata were later made to look like Okinawan basic kata?

The first 2 fukyugata were composed at a time when japan was doing nasty things to china. the fukyugata wouldn't have gone over well if they looked 'too chinese'.

perhaps Ueshiro was just trying to make a kata with the same look/feel but with basic techniques he liked but were missing from 1&2. (chasing punch in horse stance, lo-high reverse combo, block/strike without step - those don't appear in 1&2).

thanks for sharing the thoughts! I was half-expecting to get roasted...or worse, the thread die with 0 posts. lol

#288990 - 09/27/06 02:10 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: aoishi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
hi aoishi, thanks for your version of pointers. what would be interesting before I answer is hearing what medulanet thinks about the tips you gave, and if that matches the matsubayashi ideas of what he does.

after all...I'm not a MB guy and only played around with the style for a year.

but I will say, the only time I've heard to keep the fist unturned till the very end, was when I was a helped serve to keep our elbows down. after we got rid of the bad habit of 'winging' punches, when,if and how to twist the punch became long as the alignment and transfer were there, it becomes more efficient to let it turn naturally. twisting at the very end is too slow and screws up kime. you've been doing MA for 1.5 or 2 years now? give it a couple more years, you'll see what I mean.

#288991 - 09/27/06 02:38 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
aoishi Offline

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Okay, Ed, we'll see what Medula says.

BTW, I've been doing it 2 years now

About the punch, noted!

#288992 - 09/27/06 03:08 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: aoishi]
kensai1 Offline

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 52
Loc: Ohio
hi ed i have been doing it a few more then 2 years i was taught as a beginner way back when, to start to turn the fist midway through the punch in jka shotokan till i switched to kenkojuku shotokan here i was taught to do twist the fist at the very end. it had nothing to do about elbows but when the fist connects and as you are punching through the body your are damaging muscle tendon and so forth, i believe there is more to it but i cannot remember. as far as the elbows are concern, to keep my elbow back during oi zuki(lunge punch)imagine using the rear elbow as empi uchi(elbow strike). i think i have always punch with a twist in the end because of repetitive motion. just like when you do a mae geri(front kick) you do not swing your leg up.

First Degree White Belt

#288993 - 09/27/06 03:59 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: kensai1]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I was taught a thrust punch and a snap punch when you are wanting a different affect, crushing vs. internal damage. The only difference is alway i was taught to tighten the fist upon impact, then relax after impact.

Does Matsubayashi-ryu have a thrust strike/punch?

Ed I would have like to see the punch with both hands and yes indeed that was a very strong kata, I saw a sanchin stance on the left side but you corrected it on your right. You can take a duck on water but its still a duck. Meaning its hard to escape your past training completely, seemed like you really tried to empty your cup. (Yes I talk like this all the time, or worst pending how many beers) lol.

Ed what is your final resolution, did you learn anything worth retaining being that you have moved on. Just wondering I usually learn something when I cross train, even if its I can't or won't use that, its still knowledge gained + or -.

Edited by Neko456 (09/27/06 04:01 PM)

#288994 - 09/27/06 04:34 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Neko456]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
well, my honest opinion is that I don't think I had a very good introduction to what matsubayashi is all about. 1 year is not enough, plus the depth of knowledge of the instructors were a bit one-dimentional so I had to look at the details myself. a great family dojo for sure...but lacking in depth. It helped for me to get back into shape after some time off - plus everyone there was nice.

my sense is that it's a great fighting style, but not many teach it as such.

here is a collection of video showing some characteristic Matsubayashi movement. in some of them, they appear to be exaggurating the whip...this could either be as a training aide or for demonstration - but I know it's not meant as application since it would be way too slow to do all that extra motion.

notice though, when he does it fast, the 'exagguration' goes away and you can barely tell he's whipping or double-hipping.

If this style interests you, make sure you watch all the clips when you have time. enjoy.

#288995 - 09/27/06 04:45 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Okay Ed, the main thing I see with your technique is what I would refer to as shoulder punching. When in natural stance or front stance the shoulders should be square or in the process of squaring upon impact. If you look at the video when it is at 1/4 speed your punching and koshi are disconnected. Your hips are over rotated before you even make contact. Again, in matsubayashi proper technique is the key to power and application. The oi zuki punch where hips are fully rotated into a horse stance/jigotai dachi is another principle and more advanced. Actually my personal opinion is that Ueshiro added the extra kata because he did not quite get what he was taught by Nagamine in okinawa. This is apparent because Nagamine disapproved of many things he was teaching in the US. Ueshiro's karate was strong, but I see it as somewhat different from that which Nagamine taught. I have heard that Ueshiro was actually 3rd or 4th Dan when he left okinawa and 7th Dan when he stepped foot on US soil. I personally would not dream of changing Nagamine's karate at 3rd or 4th Dan. But I digress. Rather than trying to punch hard you need to strike fast with proper technique paying especially close attention to the timing of the entire body. You also need to sink or sit down on the punch. If you want to rise start from a crouched position with knees bent and head up, chin tucked.

#288996 - 09/27/06 04:49 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Neko456]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
No, actually there are no thrust techniques officially a part of the syllabus. However, Matsubayashi's whipping strikes do both. They cause external damage as well as internal, however, the external signs tend to be somewhat delayed. You'll go home with no bruises and wake up with many.

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