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#288977 - 09/26/06 11:47 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
aoishi Offline

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
I get:

"The Playlist format is not recognized."

I am on a Mac, but I don't have any troubles at Youtube or anything. Any suggestions? I should be able to view .rm, .mov. .avi. .wmv, mpeg, so I don't know the prob...

#288978 - 09/27/06 12:01 AM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Mr_Heretik]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
'uber speed' lol I'm standing still compared to my Goju sensei.

relaxed punch or loose fist punch has been talked about:
(I was the 'kintama' incarnation)

The back thing wasn't mentioned with the ueshiro-ha guys...but check with medulanet, he's the resident matsubayashi guru.

looking at it again, I guess what I was doing was a throwback to what I learned with the Kimura-shukokai folks.

make a tensioned bow from your back heel to the top of your head...then spring the bow loose to add velocity to your arm at the right time.

in any system, there are 3-dimensions of things going on at once: rising/falling power (height), bow-like spring from the backside (width), and what your core/hips are doing (depth). getting all 3 of those things going with decent alignment is the goal for this type of exercise. but...getting in position to pull this off is another matter all together. different exercise.

the idea of training single technique with impact (not only boxing a bag or punching air), is that it builds good alignment habits during the impulse of the strike. Makiwara sortof falls short at this (although good for other things). a body doesn't spring back when you hit order to train penetration into a target, we need to maintain during followthru. I'm not aiming for the surface of the bag, I'm aiming for the back of it. the technique doesn't end on contact - it ends when you've gone thru. that space/time between contact and penetration is what you focus on. someone holding an impact pad is even better since you get feedback from them. can't do any of that on a maki.

#288979 - 09/27/06 12:26 AM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: aoishi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you are sure you can play .wmv ? it's a standard windows media format.

#288980 - 09/27/06 02:35 AM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
Dereck Offline

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10416
Loc: Great White North
Opens in Windows Media for me.

Anyways ... nice Ed. I'm no expert and can't offer any opinions other then that. I was thinking it was bold of you to put these up of yourself but after watching them I can see why you would have no problem doing so.

The punch do somewhat look like the WTF punch I've learned though there is more of a chambering effect in ours but the body weight transfer is similar. However this type of punching we normally only do in patterns or when breaking techniques whether is is elbows, fist, knife hands, etc. For bag or focus mitt work we using the boxing method ... as well when MMA sparring.

Again, good on you for providing this. If this wasn't linked to another thread in the Martial Arts Talk forum, I would have missed it all together.

#288981 - 09/27/06 02:47 AM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
A few things. Rise into head/face punches, body punches that are designed to strike up into the ribs, strikes to the underside of limbs. Sink into strikes that attack the body cavities and the top of limbs. Leaving the fist out after a strike in Matsubayashi is a very basic exercise used to check form. The relaxed strike of matsubayashi is meant to whip out and right back for follow up strikes (not from a chamber either from a guard position). This strike does not push (although it can have knockdown power) but penetrates. When used correctly the bag folds, it does not sway. In the case of a bag set up that Ed mentions it would probably do both. It would swing after it was folded. I personally like kick shields/muay thai pads rather than heavy bags for my power work. But if you have no partner they are okay.

There should be no back sway on techniques due to its counter productive nature. In matsubayashi, especially in front stance, we sink with great potential to move forward. Its like a boulder on the top of a hill with a door stop preventing it from rolling. To start the boulder rolling you don't have to push, just remove the stop. This is how all stances are in matsubayashi. This is how we move, just remove the stop. The strikes in matsubayashi are a unison of hara and hand. The hara adds to the power just at the moment of impact. The thing about the style is its useage is fundamentally linked proper execution of technique. In fact its bunkai of kata is as well. I have seen very few non okinwans understand it. However, there are some guys who learned from Nagamine a long time ago and were taught things that most people are only recently figuring out about karate.

#288982 - 09/27/06 04:35 AM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Ed, can you host this video till at least sunday please, I am on dial up until then, and would love to see it. cheers buddy.
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'

#288983 - 09/27/06 07:30 AM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thats correct, this type of impact training is just for test/tweaking form and experimenting with different structures and whatnot. the things learned from doing that can be applied to a more free and loose adhoc type of bagwork that you also describe.

also to note, different hand forms (heal palm, vertical fist, forearm strikes, elbows, etc) can be extrapolated from the basic punch technique...and then adjusted to various leg attacks. then like I mention, mixing all of that into freeform bagwork. most people just go straight into freeform bagwork apparently from what they see in movies - just 'wail on the bag'. it's good for releiving stress, but I tend to try and actually study an art instead of hack my way thru.

medulanet, some of what you describe, I was trying to get (fold, not push - weight transfer, etc) according to matsubayashi your opinion, what elements was I missing?

#288984 - 09/27/06 11:07 AM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Props for manning up with a video, Ed. I gotta get a DVD ripper for my stuff with RazorFoot.

Very crisp with the kata. I like the core integration and weight transfer with the punch you showed.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#288985 - 09/27/06 11:13 AM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
kensai1 Offline

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 52
Loc: Ohio
hi ed, i trained in matsubayashi ryu back in the 80s for a little over a year also. i could not look at the bag work as the link did not work. to me the kata kukyugata looks very much like a japanese kata not very okinawan. i did not see any short stances like in a lot of their kata but i love the kata and you have great power, focus and i can tell you generate a lot of power from your hips. very impressive thank you.

First Degree White Belt

#288986 - 09/27/06 12:52 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
I thought the use of the 'loose/soft fist punch' (a.k.a. 'whip punch' in the Five Ancestors System from Fukien Province) to generate power in the kata was pretty impressive. It's a pity that you are stopping here as it would be a real challenge to apply all those loose fist punch principles in a more complex kata with chops, finger-thrusts, back-fists, palm-strikes.

This kind of punch with a vibratory effect on impact is meant to penetrate beyond the flesh and into the internal organs, without leaving a big black bruise on the skin. Because the energy for the punch started way back in the legs, it's very good for ultra short-range strikes, especially palm-heel strikes which should not start from a chambered position as in a fist strike because palm-heel strikes are usually a simultaneous one-handed block and strike all in one motion. Without the 'whipping' effect, the short-range palm-heel is next to useless.

If it's not too much to ask, can we see a sanchin kata by you, without the upper gi of course, purely for purposes of seeing the power transfer effect of the breath.
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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