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#288967 - 09/26/06 08:46 PM Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
For a year, I trained with a Matsubayashi group and in particular, was interested in the power generation differences to Goju (my main study). We can talk in detail about some of the things I noticed, failed to notice, didn't get yet, etc...what better way than with video.

context of video

Taken last year, when I was experimenting with a matsubayashi group for fun. (it was also as a test to try out my new digital video cam that I got for christmas )

I don't mind these being 'out there' since it's not my focus of study. I only did matsubayashi for a year and I was trying to get THEIR power generation methods to work for me. thats why the bagwork is static and stylized. all different ways to test technique using impact...doesn't always have to be 'boxing a bag'...sometimes you just want to train certain aspects of technique before going 'adhoc' on a bag. thats what I was doing.

the kata 'fukyugata san' is a kata composed by Ansei Ueshiro in 1960 (He passed away in 2003). is instructor was S. Nagamine on Okinawa. Ueshiro had a very well known reputation as a fighter on Okinawa. According to his first generation students (I've spoken and trained with 2 in person), Ueshiro wanted a basic kata that played to his strengths and composed one of such. It's a unique basic kata with some interesting combos. again, my demonstration of it is stylized since I was just learning the mechanics of it.

this kata can't be found anywhere else on the net...I know this because I've searched and searched when I was first learning it. The only documentation in print is a frame-by-frame reference written by R. Scaglione (USA Shorin Ryu) who was a student of Ueshiro as a NYC cop.

http://www.esnips.com/web/EdMorrissbagwork

comments/questions welcome....but I'm no longer experimenting with this style or it's power generation methods and I have only a surface introductory 'knowledge' of it.

I can go in more detail if there is interest.

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#288968 - 09/26/06 09:01 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Impressive! I think you need to get a heavier bag though, it's swinging around a bit (I hate it when that happens). I'm guessing that's around a 70 lb? I prefer to train on 100 lb bags myself, I feel that it gives a bit more of a challenge and feels a bit more solid (although I don't have access to anything more than 70 lb at the moment ).

Interesting distancing going on there. I prefer to keep a longer range from the bag myself.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (09/26/06 09:10 PM)
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#288969 - 09/26/06 09:12 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Leo_E_49]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
someone there told me it was a 100lb, seemed about that. the reason it swings so much is because the ceiling is so high and it was mounted from the ceiling on a swivel hook.

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#288970 - 09/26/06 09:14 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
kempo_jujitsu Offline
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Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
ed my friend, you are never allowed to punch me k?

just out of curiosity, how do the two methods differ in how they apply power? technically speaking i mean
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#288971 - 09/26/06 09:33 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

someone there told me it was a 100lb, seemed about that. the reason it swings so much is because the ceiling is so high and it was mounted from the ceiling on a swivel hook.




Oh right, well that's a shame, have you tried a double ended bag? They tie to the floor as well. I must say if that's a 100 lb bag, you must punch a might harder than I thought.

Your punch in the video looked like close to 12 frames on the 1/4 speed video (36 kilometres an hour (22 mph) punch if I'm correct, although that's just an estimate ). That's impressively quick hip torque, I can understand why you'd have that effect on a 100 lb bag.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (09/26/06 09:35 PM)
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#288972 - 09/26/06 09:45 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: kempo_jujitsu]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
first premise in any style when doing impact training is, if you recoil anything into your body, you aren't doing it right. so if you feel anything 'buckle'...find out why.

at first, I was comparing to what I was familiar...but I realized that isn't the best way to absorb what another style has to offer. like learning a different language, it's much better (but harder) to 'clear the slate' and think in terms of the language as oppossed to mentaly translating.

A couple of things my body timing had a hard time adjusting to:
* matsubayashi's whip-like punch. first thing is knowing how to hit with a relaxed fist. imagine your hand as a 10lb weight at the end of a wet towel. lead with the hara...follow with the hip...follow with the shoulder...and let the rest fly out - all in one motion. don't 'muscle' or 'push' the punch. Matsubayashi gets it's power from the snap like the end of a weighted towel.

* rising power (this is more apparent in the kata) - starting with knees slightly bent, and during the same time as doing what I described above, push with the legs up and into the target. this might give the effect of leaning forward, but it's not - it's driving up and into the target.

power in matsubayashi is pretty good with both of those elements timed.

those were the two main things I looked at. the shuri stepping, I never really got down well. supposedly, it's deceivingly easy...but I worked on nothing else for a month one time and 'natural stance' stepping just never felt natural. lol probably I was learning or thinking about it wrong.

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#288973 - 09/26/06 10:19 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

first premise in any style when doing impact training is, if you recoil anything into your body, you aren't doing it right. so if you feel anything 'buckle'...find out why.




Yep, I agree 100%. If it "feels" strong it probably isn't, a good punch should feel effortless.

Quote:

A couple of things my body timing had a hard time adjusting to:
* matsubayashi's whip-like punch. first thing is knowing how to hit with a relaxed fist. imagine your hand as a 10lb weight at the end of a wet towel. lead with the hara...follow with the hip...follow with the shoulder...and let the rest fly out - all in one motion. don't 'muscle' or 'push' the punch. Matsubayashi gets it's power from the snap like the end of a weighted towel.




What a curious idea. I can't imagine tossing my fist at my opponent like that. It must take a lot of coordination to do... Actually, I've heard tell that the one-inch punch has a similar principle of progressive torque and limb extension, so maybe it's a similar mechanism.

Quote:

* rising power (this is more apparent in the kata) - starting with knees slightly bent, and during the same time as doing what I described above, push with the legs up and into the target. this might give the effect of leaning forward, but it's not - it's driving up and into the target.




They have something a bit similar to this in ITF TKD, with their sine wave motion. I believe it's also found in some forms of Kung Fu. I've never tried it myself, do you find it has any great effect? Could it be applied practically when under pressure in your opinion?


Edited by Leo_E_49 (09/26/06 10:20 PM)
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#288974 - 09/26/06 10:19 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
Ed what is your footwork like? After watching you perform that kata you seem to be quick on your feet.

Alright about the power transfer. I did seem like you were whipping the arm more then normal. Although I don't know how you normally punch. I do not know much about Matsubayashi Ryu so I guess I am not much help.

But I do have a question do you think by changing your punch in this manner helped you? If so then you have done well. I know it would be hard for me to change you I reverse punch after all these year.

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#288975 - 09/26/06 10:39 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Ed_Morris]
Mr_Heretik Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA
Wow, very nice. Make another video in a year and we'll get to see you punch right through that pillar in the room(nice place to train, BTW).

The hip movement looks like the sine wave in ITF TKD(also in WTF, we just don't have a cool name for it). I wouldn't be surprised if your punches tended to "pierce" someone when sparring(I'll make a thread on it eventually).

One thing I find difficult to grasp is the "relaxing" of the punch as you described. I've heard of it before, but I've never been taught that way.

Ed, how do those power generation methods apply to other techniques? Perhaps kicks, combinations, etc. It seems as if the hip movement is heavily emphasized. The back motion is very subtle, or maybe its just your uber speed. I like the way you "put" your back into it, as opposed to "throwing" your back into it.

Unfortunately I don't have much knowledge to offer, but I hope this was worth reading.

Pretty good for a geezer. Just kidding

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#288976 - 09/26/06 11:10 PM Re: Experiments with Matsubayashi Ryu [Re: Mr_Heretik]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

The back motion is very subtle, or maybe its just your uber speed.




Haha, wish I'd thought of phrasing it that way. "Uber speed" is an accurate description indeed.
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