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#287378 - 10/20/06 06:19 PM Re: Popularity of Taekwondo [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

What I find funny is that Gen Choi. claims TKD to be completely different from karate. That karate and TKD are nothing alike and have no similarities. That TKD came to him as an inspiration.

To me all this mandid was come up with a name, he did not come up with an art. Practically all the korean arts look alike and are taught in simlar fashion. Hapkido loos like TKD mixed with jujtsu. ITF TKD is very similar to it's predicesor tang soo do and tang soo do is taught almost exactly like shotokan. Kuk sol won and Hwa rang Do look exactly like hapkido. Kyokushin kai has the exact techniques of TKD. All the movements and techniques and training methods in these styles are identical.





TeK9:

You are right. In the beginning, it was little more than a name. While it is true that he claimed to have studied the ancient Korean Art of Taekyon, there is no hard evidence of that. He also claimed to have studied Karate while in Japan, earning a 2nd Dan. There is also no hard evidence of that as well.

Be that as it may, one must understand fully Korean history in the 20th century & what was happening in Korea after WWII. It is clear to most, that Ambassador Choi, did have some MA skills. His biggest contribution was his status & power he yielded being a Major General (2 stars) & an Ambassador. He had acess to a large group of extremely talented Martial Artists. There were many pioneers that were influential in developing ITF TKD. It was Ambassador Choi that guided or managed that group.
It was this position that helped him to lead & guide the development of TKD. Later, while & after forming the ITF, the techniques were renamed, philosophy defined, the focus was sharpened, techniques were added, patterns created & eventually a different way of moving was implemented. Over time, ITF TKD gradually lost some of its Karate influence. I do not think the Founder ever denied the link to Karate or Taekyon.

Your claim that he did nothing but come up with a name, is partly correct. As you can see, all MAs have many things in common. They have to, they are self defense based. There is of course many ways that one will defend themselves. That I think is shared by all who study MAs & even those that do not. Of course, there are also things that seperate Arts & various Arts have different emphasis & theories.

I would wager a guess, that if were to visit an up to date, registered ITF DoJang, it would look somewhat different from other TKD schools, other Korean Arts schools & other MA schools in general.

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#287379 - 10/20/06 09:38 PM Re: Popularity of Taekwondo [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

What I find funny is that Gen Choi. claims TKD to be completely different from karate. That karate and TKD are nothing alike and have no similarities. That TKD came to him as an inspiration.

To me all this mandid was come up with a name, he did not come up with an art. Practically all the korean arts look alike and are taught in simlar fashion. Hapkido loos like TKD mixed with jujtsu. ITF TKD is very similar to it's predicesor tang soo do and tang soo do is taught almost exactly like shotokan. Kuk sol won and Hwa rang Do look exactly like hapkido. Kyokushin kai has the exact techniques of TKD. All the movements and techniques and training methods in these styles are identical.




Tek,

I think that the man had a huge ego and probably took more credit than he deserved, but he did much more than give it a name. He definitely studied and help evolve the art. He is HUGELY responsible for the world wide spread of the art and in a roundabout way is also responsible for the creation of the WTF. Have you ever read his encyclopedia (there is a condensed single book version) ? If not, maybe you should so you can better understand where he was coming from !

VDJ

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#287380 - 10/21/06 10:48 AM Re: Popularity of Taekwondo [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I think that science teaches us that leaders & those who have the drive to strive for improvement, have over developed egos.
Most power players, the rich & influential people, do have over developed egos! It is what enables them to achieve.

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#287381 - 10/21/06 11:34 AM Re: Popularity of Taekwondo [Re: ITFunity]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
I believe that Korea, post-Japanese occupation, tried as much as possible to distance itself from all traces of Japanese influence. This is only what I have read, can anyone confirm this?

It is a similar situation (assuming it is correct) to that of Ireland. When the British Empire left the Irish Republic, Ireland did its best to eliminate all sign English influence e.g. changing all public notices from English to Gaelic. It was a back lash against a repression of cultural identity, and an attempt (somewhat spurious in some quarters in must be said) to reassert a way of life.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#287382 - 10/21/06 02:34 PM Re: Popularity of Taekwondo [Re: ITFunity]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I would like to know where and when Gen. Choi claimed TKD came to him as an "inspiration." I am not being sarcastic; I would really like to know. When I began TKD, I trained under the late Han Cha Kyo, one of Gen. Choi's students and a member of the original TKD demo team. He alwasy said TKD was a mixture of Korean Taekyon and Japanese fighting styles. However, i do not know if Choi taught him this of if it was his own observation.

The idea that Choi might have claimed TKD owed nothing whatever to karate is plausible. In the decades following the Korean War, South Korea was ruled by a right-wing military dictatorship which was, in its own way, every bit as authoritarian and out of touch with reality as the Stalinist North. The South Korean regime cultivated a particularly obnoxious brand of overblown, jingoistic uber-nationalism. One of the main features of this nationalism was an intense hatred of the Japanese, who had occupied and oppressed Korea during WWII. As one of the cheif architects of this super-nationalist ideology, it makes sense Choi would deny the debt TKD owes to Japanese karate.

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#287383 - 10/22/06 12:33 PM Re: Popularity of Taekwondo [Re: fileboy2002]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Sir:

You are very lucky to have trained under such a legendary pioneer of ITF TKF. The late GM Han Cha Kyo is an icon.

First of all, Ambassador Choi never denied the link with either Japanese Karate or TaeKyon. In fact he credits the study of both as having contributed to the development of his Chang Hon style of TKD.

When he was imprisioned in a Japanese jail, during the occupation, he & his cell mates had more than ample time to reflect. It was during that refelction that they discussed mistakes made over Korea's history, with regards to lack of national pride & unity, that contributed to the numerous times their beloved Country was dominated by outsiders.

Later, when teaching his troops Karate, he decided that it would be additionally benificial to not only improve SD skills, but to also instill National Pride. It was this process & this personal history that was the driving force behind his managing the formation of a Korean based & named Taekwon-Do. GM Han Cha Kyo played an important role in this development.

It is also true that the early days of the ROKorea was a dictatorship.

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#287384 - 10/22/06 02:38 PM Re: Popularity of Taekwondo [Re: RazorFoot]
Derik Offline
Cruisin' for a bruisin'

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 161
I train ata because a blackbelt only costs 2000 bucks

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#287385 - 10/22/06 03:27 PM Re: Popularity of Taekwondo [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I recall reading an interview with General Choi where he commented there was nothing left of the old styles, like TaeKyon and, whilst admitting karate had played a role in the early days of TKD, he claimed it no longer did.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#287386 - 10/22/06 05:15 PM Re: Popularity of Taekwondo [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes I think what you wrote is consistent with the rhetoric. It is easy to see the Karate influence in ITF Taekwon-Do in the early days with both movements & written documentation. Both of that changed over then years, with a much less visible presence in both the documnetation & movement. However, he still gives credit to his Karate & Taekyon training & he also acknowldeges the roots that are so clear, in his most recent written texts, dating 1999 & 2004.

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#287387 - 10/22/06 06:37 PM Re: Popularity of Taekwondo [Re: Derik]
Mike_L Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 420
Loc: Rio Rancho NM/Louisville KY (U...
Quote:

I train ata because a blackbelt only costs 2000 bucks


... mine cost blood, sweat, and tears, and a $600 test.
_________________________
"There is no such thing as Perfection... Only excellence"

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