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#287324 - 09/21/06 02:45 AM Grappling multiple opponents.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
To be fair, before I start this post I want it to be known that grappling isnt my specialty. I dont discredit grappling in anyways but I dont enjoy it much. Claustrophobia. However I can hold my own on the mat. And I do train in this area of MA.

With that said let me get to the point. Ive recently had conversations where the speaker has said that they would grapple multiple opponents. To these people I say, join reality, we miss you.

The simple fact of the matter is that it is never smart to try and fight more than one person. On the ground or otherwise.

Here is my definition of self defense= the ability to return to freedom.

Mobility is key to this idea. You must be able to move freely at all times to defend, attack, and escape. Lyaing on your back doesnt facilitate this.

When you are on the ground, your hands are full. You must control your opponents arms, (if only momentarily) then you must figure out a way to subdue him quickly all the while controlling your own arms and him fighting back with all his might. While you are doing this you have to hope that your attacker is alone. If your hands are busy working his hands or limbs. Whats protecting you? What protects you once you are so committed? The level of committment to groundfighting is as much or higher than the committment you have made once you are mid flight into a jump kick. Way too much.

I dont care who you are. You could be Royce Gracie himself. two average grapplers.Let me say it again AVERAGE grappler will easily beat out one good one. Especially if the weight is relatively close between all three combatants. And for those of you who say strength isnt a factor in grappling: get real! If thats the case I have some people Id love you to meet on a mat. Then We'll see if your money is where your mouth is. So members, whats your thoughts?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
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#287325 - 09/21/06 06:28 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
lol i remember a higher belt telling me once during grappling, " its not strength, its technique", of course using nothing but strength I pinned him to the ground and won the round
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"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#287326 - 09/21/06 08:22 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: crablord]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
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Loc: Ms
Happens all the time. People get cocky because there gym partner is weaker or doesnt fight as hard as he would on the street. Then when they get beat boy do the excuses start flying! But oh no it was never strength
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
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#287327 - 09/22/06 07:17 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
Ok this is just my opinion so everyone dont get bent out of shape especially the moderators lol....pure power or strenght can beat almost any technique. Take for instance Matt Hughes without his freakish strenght he would be nothing. By the way I cant wait for the BJPenn vs. Matt Hughes fight. Im rooting for my local brother BJ to knock the crap out of Hughes.


Edited by Rumble (09/22/06 07:30 PM)
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#287328 - 09/22/06 07:28 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Rumble]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Ok this is just my opinion so everyone dont get bent out of shape especially the moderators lol....pure power or strenght can beat almost any technique.




There has to be an extreme strength imbalance between the opponents for that to be true.
_________________________
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#287329 - 09/22/06 07:57 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: MattJ]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
Quote:

Quote:

Ok this is just my opinion so everyone dont get bent out of shape especially the moderators lol....pure power or strenght can beat almost any technique.




There has to be an extreme strength imbalance between the opponents for that to be true.




Wrong. All you need is a little strength imbalance or that little edge for the outcome to be in your favor.


Edited by Rumble (09/22/06 08:17 PM)
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#287330 - 09/22/06 08:14 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Rumble]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I believe it would have to be a fairly substantial difference. Not huge but not small either.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#287331 - 09/22/06 11:26 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
yep, if anyone has seen fearless, that fight scene with the big guy? Thats the type of imbalance that you would need lol. Take bob sapp for instance, hes huge, but cro cop beat him. I agree that power can be matched to technique, but power only gets you so far. A blend is good
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"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#287332 - 09/23/06 01:11 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: crablord]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
Quote:

yep, if anyone has seen fearless, that fight scene with the big guy? Thats the type of imbalance that you would need lol. Take bob sapp for instance, hes huge, but cro cop beat him. I agree that power can be matched to technique, but power only gets you so far. A blend is good




Oh no crablord you been watching too many JetLee movies lol...As that big guy in the movie Fearless in real life would rip Jet lee in half with ease and as for Bob Sapp as big as he is for his weight he is weak for his size and cant fight for sh!t lol.....Also size and pure power is two different things. Also that big guy in the fearless movie is the same guy in the new Ongbak movie I forget what the original title was but in the American version I think its called the Protector or something like that lol.....but it is a good movie with all tommys stunts,acrobatics and flashy moves I especially like the part where he was fighting the multiple guys using the joint bone breaking techniques. AAHH sh1t now what was I talking about again lol lol......


Edited by Rumble (09/23/06 01:13 AM)
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#287333 - 09/23/06 01:16 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Rumble]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
He was in troy too. big guy at the start? I met him too once lives in brisbane. Oh yeah i didnt say jet would win, i said if technique could really lose to power you would need a big imbalance, like a guy jets size vs bigdude. technique of course not being the silly little breakdance kicks he did!
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"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#287334 - 09/23/06 04:19 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Rumble]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Ok this is just my opinion so everyone dont get bent out of shape especially the moderators lol....pure power or strenght can beat almost any technique. Take for instance Matt Hughes without his freakish strenght he would be nothing. By the way I cant wait for the BJPenn vs. Matt Hughes fight. Im rooting for my local brother BJ to knock the crap out of Hughes.




Matt Hughes has more than strength, GSP didn't consider him to be strong yet he still lost. Matt Hughes has very good technique, anyone who thinks otherwise is simply wrong.

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#287335 - 09/23/06 08:15 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Rumble]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Wrong. All you need is a little strength imbalance or that little edge for the outcome to be in your favor.




Wrong. Watch the early UFC's. Royce Gracie fought people that were massively bigger and stronger, and beat them with better technique. The imbalance has to be substantial. What you are talking about is luck.

I have beaten bigger, stronger guys in both stand-up and grappling with better technique. It happens a lot.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#287336 - 09/23/06 08:31 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: MattJ]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I think it comes down to the fact that a bigger, stronger person has the potential to defeat a smaller, weaker person because they can both train just as much and both have the ability to improve their technique. It's a sad fact of life that things just aren't fair. A big, skillful fighter will beat a small skillful fighter. However, the lines are blurred when you're matching a big, unskilled fighter against a small, skilled fighter. The match could go either way.
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#287337 - 09/23/06 09:22 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Leo_E_49]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
lol its not unfair, you dont just get born big, you work for it...never seen any muscly dudes who didnt exercise..one of the sideeffects of which happens to be a better fighting ability. Tanky dudes have to put in the hard work you know!
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"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#287338 - 09/23/06 09:30 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: crablord]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Admittedly, anyone can get strong, but taller people can generally get stronger. Simply because their frame can hold more muscle. Of course, usually they ignore technique and rely on their strength but those who actually train and improve their technique end up really good.

I'm pretty sure that it's genetically easier for some people to put on muscle mass than others, but I'm no expert on the subject.
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#287339 - 09/23/06 09:57 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Leo_E_49]
MattJ Offline
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Good point, Leo. The skill advantage must be large as well - otherwise strength can win. Really does depend on who has more of what.
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#287340 - 09/23/06 07:37 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: MattJ]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
Quote:

Good point, Leo. The skill advantage must be large as well - otherwise strength can win. Really does depend on who has more of what.




My bad I should of made my statement more clear with everything else being equal like skill weight etc... the stronger person usually wins. Back then Gracie was one of the best skilled fighters on the planet because the rest of them didnt know how to actually fight and in skill wise Gracie was way better thats why he won but now everyone knows how to fight and Gracie is nothing compared to most fighters nowdays. Now when two good fighters like Matt and GSP fight they almost equal in skill but Matt has the little edge in strength and that little strength can make a big difference in the outcome of the fight if you took that strength edge away from Matt maybe he could of lost to GSP.
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#287341 - 09/23/06 07:54 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
It depends on the opponents. Are they 10 year olds or NFL defensive linemen?

I absolutely agree that it isn't a smart idea to grapple two or more opponents.

I think that two or more "worthy opponents" are trouble in any range and that your only true course of action should be to escape. I believe that anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

I mean, anything can happen but wouldn't you think that it's generally a stupid idea to stand and fight multiple opponents?

And yes, technique can most certainly overcome size and strength. I have routinely grappled with bigger and stronger individuals and haven't had a great deal of problems completely dominating them provided that I had the higher level of skill.



-John

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#287342 - 09/24/06 03:49 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: JKogas]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
Dam just to let everyone know my local brahda BJPenn lost to Matt Hughe. BJ won the first two rounds but by the third round BJ was gassed out and Matt took him down and started to pound and the fight was over. The only problem with BJ is that he dont know how to condition himself if he did I think BJ would of won if he wasnt gassed out by the third round plus he took the fight only on a 4 week notice or something like that. Even alot of BJ's local fans said if he not in shape he not going win and thats just what happened.
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#287343 - 09/24/06 03:56 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sure technique can beat strength. Royce Gracie did it many times but not evryone is a world class grappler.For the average grappler its still going to be very difficult to handle a stronger opponent. And many times if an opponent is stronger than you than its because he has more muscle mass and therefore more weight to throw around as well.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#287344 - 09/24/06 09:27 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Back to the original post.

I think everyone agree's going to the ground is a bad idea in most cases. Especialy against multiple opponents. Taking on multiple oponentsis never a good idea but if you must, then it would be a good idea for you to strike first, strike hard, and stay on your feet.

If your sure your assailants are going to attack, why not attack them first and get the upper hand, it may be the only chance you get.

If they happend to attack first, then get into that block + strike mentality or do so simultaneously. You will not have time to focus all of your time on one assailant. Although I have never been jumped by multiple attackers this is how we practiced in kenpo. I believe the only way to suvive a multiple attack is to use only striking tecniques, if you decide to grapple (standing or ground)you will lose. I think this stuff is best left to aikido, or hapkido demonstrations where the person can take on 10 attacks at the same time. Or even better leave it to Steven Segal.

In tang soo do my teachers philosophy was to strike first, strike fast, and run. His motto "Better to be judged by 12 (in court), than to be carried by 6 (at a funeral).

A naturally bigger, stronger person will always have an advantage over a smaller weaker person. That is were MA training comes into play. It is there so the smaller, weaker person can have a chance by using skill.

Now all things being equal, if they both happen to be equally skilled, the advantage still goes to the taller, stronger man, however, this does not mean he will win the fight. Luck has as much to do with it as strength and skill.
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#287345 - 09/24/06 09:29 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
ONe more thing, Matt Hughes may have strenght over GSP, but GSP has speed over Matt Hughes.
_________________________
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does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#287346 - 09/25/06 05:52 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: TeK9]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

ONe more thing, Matt Hughes may have strenght over GSP, but GSP has speed over Matt Hughes.




Wrong on both counts. Hughes and GSP are the same size, equally strong, and Hughes is far from being slow.

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#287347 - 09/25/06 05:55 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Sure technique can beat strength. Royce Gracie did it many times but not evryone is a world class grappler.For the average grappler its still going to be very difficult to handle a stronger opponent. And many times if an opponent is stronger than you than its because he has more muscle mass and therefore more weight to throw around as well.




Royce was average (still is), that's why they picked him for the original tournament. They wanted to showcase someone who wasn't particularly talented or physically gifted winning because of the art. He never won any BJJ tournaments in Brazil, he was just a kid doing what his older brother told him to do.

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#287348 - 09/25/06 08:59 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: migo]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Royce Gracie average? Im not sure I can buy that. Im sure that I have at least as much if not more physical strength than he does. And I know Im better than average. But Royce would beat me. Just like he beat all those other guys. Sure BJJ is a good art, but good enough to take someone average and put them in there with world class athletes? Doubt it.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#287349 - 09/25/06 09:16 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
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Believe it Chen. Royce has got to be the least athletic guy that I've EVER seen fighting or just about competing in ANY sport. That's just part of the beauty of Brazilian jiu-jitsu.



-John

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#287350 - 09/26/06 07:04 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: JKogas]
jkdwarrior Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
I'm in agreement with the original poster in that grappling in a fight against multiple opponents is not a good idea, better to be able to move about. If you take one of them down, the other can just kick you in the face. I've been practising with my friends recently, and a good idea i've found that works in this situation is to use your quick footwork to move to the place where the three of you are in a straight line and you are at either end. This way you only have to fight one at any given moment.

As for the strength overcoming size when all else is equal, Well that could be said about any attribute. e.g. if all else is equal, the faster person will win, or if all else is equal, the one with better spatial awareness will win etc. The fact of the matter is, that all else is rarely, if ever equal. One good MAist will be able to do several things better than another and there are just so many variations that it really is impossible to tell who could win.
Another thing that one should remember, is that you should never underestimate the smaller MAist. While generally they are going to be easier to beat in competition, some of them are formidable opponents. They are generally slightly faster, have a lower centre of gravity and therefore better balance and manouverability.
Small MAists will also be regularly training with larger people, and will therefore have found things that DO work for them. Some may even be able to use their smaller size to their advantage. Who knows.
As for no techniques whatsoever being able to work on a much bigger guy, that is just wrong. There are some areas on the body that size and strength can never change the fact that they are vulnerable, eg. groin, throat etc. If Jet Lee had hit that guy a big kick in the nuts, it would hurt him. Nobody is invulnerable.
_________________________
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#287351 - 09/26/06 10:58 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: jkdwarrior]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Jet Li should never be used in examples of combat effectiveness, he's said himself he's not a fighter and what he does is entertain to earn money to provide for his kids.

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#287352 - 10/10/06 10:16 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Leo_E_49]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Quote:

Admittedly, anyone can get strong, but taller people can generally get stronger. Simply because their frame can hold more muscle. really




Where do you come up with this logic?? Have you seen many powerlifters? alot of them tend to be shorter, yet are considerably stronger than most bodybuilders who tend to be both taller and have more muscle. Having more muscle does not by default equal more strength. powerlifter and olympic lifters, in general are much smaller than bodybuilders, yet are usually much much stronger.

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#287353 - 10/10/06 11:34 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Glockmeister]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Where do you come up with this logic?? Have you seen many powerlifters? alot of them tend to be shorter, yet are considerably stronger than most bodybuilders who tend to be both taller and have more muscle. Having more muscle does not by default equal more strength.




I'm pretty sure that people who train for functional strength with more muscle tend to be stronger than people who have less. People with bigger frames have the ability to build more muscle mass simply because their bodies are larger. It's a case of numbers basically, more muscle mass. According to wikipedia "large muscles are good for maximal power during short time periods", a fact which I thought was commonly known. "Large muscles" on a tall person are larger than "large muscles" on a small person, all things being relative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_strength

"A display of "strength" (eg lifting a weight) is a result of three factors that overlap; Physiological strength (muscle size, cross sectional area, available crossbridging, responses to training), neurological strength (how strong or weak is the signal that tells the muscle to contract), and mechanical strength (muscle's force angle on the lever, moment arm length, joint capabilities)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle

Admittedly, recent studies are apparently finding that muscle size is not the only factor in strength but I don't know how widely accepted this is. Never the less, muscle size does have a strong correlation with body strength.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Citation

Any introductory textbook on human anatomy and physiology will confirm my opinion.

Quote:

powerlifter and olympic lifters, in general are much smaller than bodybuilders, yet are usually much much stronger.




I'd like to see a basis for your judgement that smaller people can lift weight with more solidity than anecdotal evidence. Olympians come in all shapes and sizes, as do body builders.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (10/10/06 11:50 AM)
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#287354 - 10/12/06 05:23 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Leo_E_49]
Glockmeister Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
It doesnt matter what wilkapedia says. I have been at the gym and have watched people twice my size with bulging muscles unable to bench what I can bench. If you have watched a lot of olympic lifting or powerlifting, i think it is very obvious at the difference of their body type as opposed to the type of bodies that bodylbuilders have. Alot of strength has to do with central nervous system and how it effects muscle contraction.
A good example of how size of muscles has little to do with strenght or muscular endurance. Where I work we have a guy who is one of the types who always has his sleeves rolled up, has the old fashined "farmer's walk" always trying to show of his guns, when we were doing our PT test for our responce team, the man could barely even do the required number of push ups, needing to constantly rest his chest on the ground between reps. It was pethetic, yet he "looks strong" because he has big muscles. No goiod to have big guns if they only shoot blanks

I never said shorter peoiple can lift more as a rule, symply that there are a vast number of powerlifters who are quite small by bodybulder standards yet I would bet on the smaller powerlifter in terms of strength anyday.

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#287355 - 10/12/06 06:07 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Glockmeister]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

It doesnt matter what wilkapedia says. I have been at the gym and have watched people twice my size with bulging muscles unable to bench what I can bench.




Sure, let's not trust wikipedia, how about if I reference you to Human Anatomy and Physiology by Tortura and Derrickson, they both pose the same answer to your suggestion that I do. What you've seen in your own experience may not be representative of general human experience. Please provide a reference other than your own anecdotal experience to prove what you are saying is true in most cases.

Quote:

If you have watched a lot of olympic lifting or powerlifting, i think it is very obvious at the difference of their body type as opposed to the type of bodies that bodylbuilders have. Alot of strength has to do with central nervous system and how it effects muscle contraction.




Absolutely, this is a very important factor in muscular strength, as I said before. However, it is not the only factor relating to muscular strength, and muscle mass is another factor affecting strength.

Quote:

A good example of how size of muscles has little to do with strenght or muscular endurance. Where I work we have a guy who is one of the types who always has his sleeves rolled up, has the old fashined "farmer's walk" always trying to show of his guns, when we were doing our PT test for our responce team, the man could barely even do the required number of push ups, needing to constantly rest his chest on the ground between reps.




It is possible that the guy has a large concentration of fast twitch muscle, rather than slow twitch muscle, resulting in greater power but less endurance. Hence, he would be a better power lifter but worse at endurance exercises such as walking with kettle bells or large numbers of repetitions of push ups.

Quote:

It was pethetic, yet he "looks strong" because he has big muscles. No goiod to have big guns if they only shoot blanks




Absolutely, non-functional development of muscles is contrary to the purposes of cultivating strength. You can train your muscles to isolate them for the purposes of body building asthetic or for strength, however, this has the same effect whether a person is large or small. Except that a larger person has the advantage of their frame holding potentially more muscle mass.

Quote:

I never said shorter peoiple can lift more as a rule, symply that there are a vast number of powerlifters who are quite small by bodybulder standards yet I would bet on the smaller powerlifter in terms of strength anyday.




I'm saying that as a general rule, larger people with more muscle mass have a strength advantage over smaller people with less muscle mass.

Shorter people with more muscle mass than a larger person and more developed nervous impulses to their muscles will obviously be stronger than larger people. However, larger people can develop the same strength of nervous impulses and can develop even more muscle mass.
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#287356 - 10/15/06 04:51 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
Fletch1 Offline
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Registered: 06/21/04
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I don't understand why this topic keeps popping up and why people who don't grapple to any extent are the ones bringing it up.

I have yet to actually hear anyone of any significant level of skill or experience talk about successfully grappling multiple opponents. Yet non grapplers often seem to want to imply that these claims are being made regularly......By whom I ask?

Until I have names and faces to put with these claims, I will write these comments off as gossip and baseless innuendo
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#287357 - 10/15/06 07:33 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Fletch1]
Chen Zen Offline
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If you must know, Fletch, it was a brief discussion between me and Migo on another thread in the self defense forum.
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#287358 - 10/16/06 11:07 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
Fletch1 Offline
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ok. Was there someone talking about successfully grappling more than one opponent?
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#287359 - 10/16/06 11:43 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Fletch1]
Chen Zen Offline
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Yes and it wasnt me.
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#287360 - 10/17/06 01:27 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
Fletch1 Offline
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Ok. Thanks.

That stuff just drives me crazy. Didn't mean to take it out on you.
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#287361 - 10/17/06 06:15 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Leo_E_49]
jkdwarrior Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
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Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Another factor that should be included in this debate is the fact that shorter people have shorter limbs and therefore greater leverage than their taller counterparts. So with the same amount of muscle mass, and the same force of the actual muscular contraction, they are able to lift heavier loads.
Now, in general, taller people can be stronger than short folks because of the potential difference in muscle mass, but this difference is not as great as size alone can account for.
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#287362 - 10/17/06 10:05 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Fletch1]
Chen Zen Offline
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No problem Bro.
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#287363 - 10/18/06 05:01 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: jkdwarrior]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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True, in most cases the difference is slight. However, if the difference in size is significant it can be more of a deciding factor.
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#287364 - 10/28/06 10:11 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Leo_E_49]
Glockmeister Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
One thing we must do when we talk about strength is uncersatnd what constitutes strength. If I deadlift 315 lbs 3 times and you can't do it once, one would say I am stronger than you. yet you go and do 25 pullups and I can only do 5 and they could say in that sense, you are stronger than me. Some people look more to muscular endurance as opposed to brute strength to pick up an object once.
Another way to look at it is like this. a good example: my old boxing coach and one of my best friends used to love to go to the bars after hours and there would always be someone there challenging his boxing. Of course he always kept a key to the gym. ;-) So anyway, he gets to talkign to someone we knew. this dude was a hulk. Big time weightlifter, Biceps were bulging, enormous pecs, you get the idea. Well anyway, this dude agrees to go back to the gym with us and box with my buddy. Now with all this muscle and his supposed "strength, you would think he would have done some real damage. Problem is, with all those big muscles, you have to also have a strong cardio cascualr system to pump fresh oxygenated blood to those big muscles. Well obviously he didn't have the kind of strength, what we call "functional strength. Despite those hige bulging arms muscles, at the end of 1 round he was to weak to even hold them up. Why because he was weak. he had big guns that shot blanks.You can't look at someone and be able to tell if there cardiovascular system is strong and in the real world, that matters a lot more than have "big guns"

My only point was I have learned not to measure a person's sternght by whether he was big or small. Too many times we can find outselves in a bad situation when we find out the guy is "much stronger than he looks" Matt J is a good example of that. No real big, not Gigantic muscles, but I have grappled with him many times and he is one strong SOB.
MattJ, if you are reading this we both know how Jeremy looks anything but strong, no muscles that are big in any way, skinny arms, flat chest and I don't think any of us would deny he has a heck of a lot of strength and muscular endurance as well.

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#287365 - 10/28/06 11:15 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Glockmeister]
MattJ Offline
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Thanks for the kind words, right back atcha, bro!

Size and appearance do not have the correlation with fighting endurance/strength that many people think it does. There is another guy in our BJJ class (Kenny) that is smaller and shorter than me, but he is strong as an ox and never gets tired. Tapped me out several times.

Tough to judge by looking.
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#287366 - 10/28/06 11:05 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: MattJ]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
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I think you'll find that when it comes to grappling it's not strength which matters as much as technique. These guys probably appear to be really strong because they've got more leverage than most people do. The more leverage you can get in grappling techniques, the less strength you actually need to have. This has been proven by the Gracies many times and is also true in my experience.

Just because a bigger person can be stronger doesn't mean they'll be guaranteed to win, far from it.
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