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#287344 - 09/24/06 09:27 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Back to the original post.

I think everyone agree's going to the ground is a bad idea in most cases. Especialy against multiple opponents. Taking on multiple oponentsis never a good idea but if you must, then it would be a good idea for you to strike first, strike hard, and stay on your feet.

If your sure your assailants are going to attack, why not attack them first and get the upper hand, it may be the only chance you get.

If they happend to attack first, then get into that block + strike mentality or do so simultaneously. You will not have time to focus all of your time on one assailant. Although I have never been jumped by multiple attackers this is how we practiced in kenpo. I believe the only way to suvive a multiple attack is to use only striking tecniques, if you decide to grapple (standing or ground)you will lose. I think this stuff is best left to aikido, or hapkido demonstrations where the person can take on 10 attacks at the same time. Or even better leave it to Steven Segal.

In tang soo do my teachers philosophy was to strike first, strike fast, and run. His motto "Better to be judged by 12 (in court), than to be carried by 6 (at a funeral).

A naturally bigger, stronger person will always have an advantage over a smaller weaker person. That is were MA training comes into play. It is there so the smaller, weaker person can have a chance by using skill.

Now all things being equal, if they both happen to be equally skilled, the advantage still goes to the taller, stronger man, however, this does not mean he will win the fight. Luck has as much to do with it as strength and skill.
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#287345 - 09/24/06 09:29 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
ONe more thing, Matt Hughes may have strenght over GSP, but GSP has speed over Matt Hughes.
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#287346 - 09/25/06 05:52 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: TeK9]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

ONe more thing, Matt Hughes may have strenght over GSP, but GSP has speed over Matt Hughes.




Wrong on both counts. Hughes and GSP are the same size, equally strong, and Hughes is far from being slow.

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#287347 - 09/25/06 05:55 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

Sure technique can beat strength. Royce Gracie did it many times but not evryone is a world class grappler.For the average grappler its still going to be very difficult to handle a stronger opponent. And many times if an opponent is stronger than you than its because he has more muscle mass and therefore more weight to throw around as well.




Royce was average (still is), that's why they picked him for the original tournament. They wanted to showcase someone who wasn't particularly talented or physically gifted winning because of the art. He never won any BJJ tournaments in Brazil, he was just a kid doing what his older brother told him to do.

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#287348 - 09/25/06 08:59 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: migo]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Royce Gracie average? Im not sure I can buy that. Im sure that I have at least as much if not more physical strength than he does. And I know Im better than average. But Royce would beat me. Just like he beat all those other guys. Sure BJJ is a good art, but good enough to take someone average and put them in there with world class athletes? Doubt it.
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#287349 - 09/25/06 09:16 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Chen Zen]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Believe it Chen. Royce has got to be the least athletic guy that I've EVER seen fighting or just about competing in ANY sport. That's just part of the beauty of Brazilian jiu-jitsu.



-John

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#287350 - 09/26/06 07:04 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: JKogas]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
I'm in agreement with the original poster in that grappling in a fight against multiple opponents is not a good idea, better to be able to move about. If you take one of them down, the other can just kick you in the face. I've been practising with my friends recently, and a good idea i've found that works in this situation is to use your quick footwork to move to the place where the three of you are in a straight line and you are at either end. This way you only have to fight one at any given moment.

As for the strength overcoming size when all else is equal, Well that could be said about any attribute. e.g. if all else is equal, the faster person will win, or if all else is equal, the one with better spatial awareness will win etc. The fact of the matter is, that all else is rarely, if ever equal. One good MAist will be able to do several things better than another and there are just so many variations that it really is impossible to tell who could win.
Another thing that one should remember, is that you should never underestimate the smaller MAist. While generally they are going to be easier to beat in competition, some of them are formidable opponents. They are generally slightly faster, have a lower centre of gravity and therefore better balance and manouverability.
Small MAists will also be regularly training with larger people, and will therefore have found things that DO work for them. Some may even be able to use their smaller size to their advantage. Who knows.
As for no techniques whatsoever being able to work on a much bigger guy, that is just wrong. There are some areas on the body that size and strength can never change the fact that they are vulnerable, eg. groin, throat etc. If Jet Lee had hit that guy a big kick in the nuts, it would hurt him. Nobody is invulnerable.
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#287351 - 09/26/06 10:58 PM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: jkdwarrior]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Jet Li should never be used in examples of combat effectiveness, he's said himself he's not a fighter and what he does is entertain to earn money to provide for his kids.

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#287352 - 10/10/06 10:16 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Leo_E_49]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Quote:

Admittedly, anyone can get strong, but taller people can generally get stronger. Simply because their frame can hold more muscle. really




Where do you come up with this logic?? Have you seen many powerlifters? alot of them tend to be shorter, yet are considerably stronger than most bodybuilders who tend to be both taller and have more muscle. Having more muscle does not by default equal more strength. powerlifter and olympic lifters, in general are much smaller than bodybuilders, yet are usually much much stronger.

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#287353 - 10/10/06 11:34 AM Re: Grappling multiple opponents. [Re: Glockmeister]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Where do you come up with this logic?? Have you seen many powerlifters? alot of them tend to be shorter, yet are considerably stronger than most bodybuilders who tend to be both taller and have more muscle. Having more muscle does not by default equal more strength.




I'm pretty sure that people who train for functional strength with more muscle tend to be stronger than people who have less. People with bigger frames have the ability to build more muscle mass simply because their bodies are larger. It's a case of numbers basically, more muscle mass. According to wikipedia "large muscles are good for maximal power during short time periods", a fact which I thought was commonly known. "Large muscles" on a tall person are larger than "large muscles" on a small person, all things being relative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_strength

"A display of "strength" (eg lifting a weight) is a result of three factors that overlap; Physiological strength (muscle size, cross sectional area, available crossbridging, responses to training), neurological strength (how strong or weak is the signal that tells the muscle to contract), and mechanical strength (muscle's force angle on the lever, moment arm length, joint capabilities)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle

Admittedly, recent studies are apparently finding that muscle size is not the only factor in strength but I don't know how widely accepted this is. Never the less, muscle size does have a strong correlation with body strength.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Citation

Any introductory textbook on human anatomy and physiology will confirm my opinion.

Quote:

powerlifter and olympic lifters, in general are much smaller than bodybuilders, yet are usually much much stronger.




I'd like to see a basis for your judgement that smaller people can lift weight with more solidity than anecdotal evidence. Olympians come in all shapes and sizes, as do body builders.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (10/10/06 11:50 AM)
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