FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 24 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
TomRosenberg, jessylin, play, Keith_G, LeroyCFischer
22937 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
jwwmantis 2
Beefcake 1
LeroyCFischer 1
futsaowingchun 1
Zombie Zero 1
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
New Topics
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
2015 Master Yang Jwing-Ming Seminar
by jwwmantis
12/05/14 10:36 PM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by
12/27/06 11:43 AM
Your true goal
by
03/03/06 07:16 AM
Recent Posts
Freeing Hand-Wing Chun's last movements
by futsaowingchun
12/17/14 09:40 PM
Your true goal
by Beefcake
12/11/14 02:44 AM
The Beginners Guide To Stretching
by LeroyCFischer
12/04/14 02:07 AM
Forum Stats
22937 Members
36 Forums
35591 Topics
432526 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >
Topic Options
#287089 - 09/20/06 06:18 PM Where did "chi ball" come from?
MastaFighta Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 260
Loc: United States
My question is where did all of this "Chi ball" stuff come from? I do know Chi has been mentioned for generations but I never remember hearing about it as an actual form of being which many claim to control. I've read a lot of books on the Martial Arts and I never remember hearing one that describes Chi as such, nor do I remember reading the importance of being able to control it to the extent many claim to.

I don't mean to bash any claims or studies that involve the manipulation of your bodies energy, I just want to know where it all came from.

Top
#287090 - 09/20/06 06:20 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MastaFighta]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Anime.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#287091 - 09/20/06 06:29 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
MastaFighta Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 260
Loc: United States
Quote:

Anime.



To be honest, that's what I thought too. Especially shows like Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z.

Top
#287092 - 09/20/06 11:34 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MastaFighta]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
my kids used to watch 'ultraman' reruns in the 90's - a series from the 60's/70's that was put to video tape. ...If I'm not mistaken, ultraman used to hurl chi balls as well. except he was a spaceman - so perhaps that was different 'energy' ?? maybe those were reactor balls/beam or something, cant remember. cheezy as all hell. the guy had some moves though...looked like he had maybe a year of karate and maybe some dabbling in judo. lol
http://www.smithedantas.com.br/texto/ultraman.jpg
http://www.scifijapan.com/MIPTV/UltramanMax02b.jpg

Top
#287093 - 09/21/06 11:33 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MastaFighta Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 260
Loc: United States
Quote:

my kids used to watch 'ultraman' reruns in the 90's - a series from the 60's/70's that was put to video tape. ...If I'm not mistaken, ultraman used to hurl chi balls as well. except he was a spaceman - so perhaps that was different 'energy' ?? maybe those were reactor balls/beam or something, cant remember. cheezy as all hell. the guy had some moves though...looked like he had maybe a year of karate and maybe some dabbling in judo. lol
http://www.smithedantas.com.br/texto/ultraman.jpg
http://www.scifijapan.com/MIPTV/UltramanMax02b.jpg



I remember seeing that show a very long time ago.

If the whole concept of "Chi balls" is based on what someone saw on television, then what's the point of trying to emulate it? Wouldn't it be a useless thing to learn? I don't think it would do anyone any good in a real fight.

I remember seeing this show some time ago that went around debunking ridiculous claims, and one of them was some "master" of Chi who claimed to control his energy. First he demonstrated his "skill" on his students and they all were knocked out or felt the force from the technique. Then they took him to another school in which the students weren't effected at all by his techniques. To make things even more interesting, he tried covering for himself by saying that it only works on a certain percentage of people.

Top
#287094 - 09/26/06 10:16 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MastaFighta]
RonH Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 19
The concept of a "chi ball" dates back thousands of years and comes from mysticism. It started out as the general descripter of an "energy ball" and from that main grouping came subdivisions, "cold ball", "heat ball", "chi ball", etc. Each type of energy was used as a name for the concentration of that particular type of energy. Because of the higher focus on the material/etheric side of life in MA, the continued instruction on chi lead to the rise of a chi ball focus amongst energy working martial artists over other types.

There is no reason for it not able to be controlled. Everything is energy, you can direct electrical impulses to follow the path of the nervous system to different parts of your body. You're controlling the energy that makes up you to get the electrical impulses to get to a particular spot. When you look at the human body as an energy field and the surrounding environment, you'll see energy fields are in constant contact, whether you are on a planet or are floating in space. You radiate energy, so why couldn't you concentrate it and send it off somewhere?

In the circumstances involving chi, it enhances all body functions, which is why higher concentrations are aimed for. The level you can sustain from one moment to the next over an extended period of time is determined by the skill you've developed.

Edit: The thing with movement is that, the greater sensitivity you have a particular type of energy (in this case chi), the more you will react to it. It's your own body's perception of it. If something is difficult to perceive, the less you will react to it. Take adrenaline. That dulls pain and increases stamina, letting you keep going after taking a higher level of punishment you couldn't take, if there wasn't the increased adrenaline levels. This is a temporary version of what's going on with chi. It's a chi-chi interaction and because of the more fine a degree the energy exists at, it takes a much larger amount of it to manipulate things that are more material, which have a less finer existence. The reason you'll see someone drop or flail around or whatever is because of that person's connection between their material body and the finer degree of energy of their chi reacting to the chi-chi interaction.

That's how it works. The thing in public belief of it not being real is that there are many con artists and people who will fake it, even when they know it's true. The energy is also hard to detect because our current sensing equipment is not built to detect it directly. The best we can currently do is detect it indirectly through the EM field given off by objects, but that isn't scientific evidense either, so it's dismissed as not being evidence because there is no apparent evidence of it existing, which is why there are nonbelievers, which'll happen.

That being said, damage can still be done by someone projecting/using a large amount of energy on someone that even has a low sensitivity to chi.


Edited by RonH (09/26/06 10:31 AM)

Top
#287095 - 09/26/06 10:21 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: RonH]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1993
Loc: Lorton, VA
Hadoken!

Top
#287096 - 09/26/06 10:46 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: RonH]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by RonH -

Quote:

That being said, damage can still be done by someone projecting/using a large amount of energy on someone that even has a low sensitivity to chi.




Oh.

My.

God.

Please tell me you are not trying to say that chi-zaps and whatnot are real.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#287097 - 09/26/06 12:08 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: RonH]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

That being said, damage can still be done by someone projecting/using a large amount of energy on someone that even has a low sensitivity to chi.



what is your source/basis for this statement? over-active imagination or hallucenigens?

1. give evidence of anyone ever damaging anything with just their 'chi'.

2. give evidence of how 'chi sensitivity' is measured.

no need to answer...you can't. I understand.

Top
#287098 - 09/26/06 12:57 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ed, Matt. I am not a mod or have ever been one, so politeness, which I usually carry in plentitude, is not required here. Bull $hit!

Come on, you guys really wanted to say that, didn't you?

Top
#287099 - 09/26/06 01:00 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: RonH]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

That being said, damage can still be done by someone projecting/using a large amount of energy on someone that even has a low sensitivity to chi.




Hello RonH,

Please contact me to set up a test. I am in Houston, TX and my e-mail is in my profile. You can become $1,000 US richer by stopping me pouring a glass of water on your head using only your magical chi-powers.

Otherswise please have a nice glass of STFU.

--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

Top
#287100 - 09/26/06 01:10 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Ed, Matt. I am not a mod or have ever been one, so politeness, which I usually carry in plentitude, is not required here. Bull $hit!

Come on, you guys really wanted to say that, didn't you?




*sound of pressure releasing*

Thanks, man.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#287101 - 09/26/06 01:45 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I forgot I'm not a mod anymore

---
LOL be afraid... be very afraid!


Edited by Reiki (09/26/06 07:52 PM)

Top
#287102 - 09/26/06 02:50 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Kempoman]
RonH Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 19
Guys, you might want to pay attention to the point of the thread. The origin of the concept of chi balls was asked for and I gave the historical perspective. This is not something that came about in pop culture. It originated in popular culture from hearing the stories of old and thinking 'if it could be projected like a beam of energy, why not make it into a ball? It's different and cool, too.' This happens with any historical piece in pop culture. Certain things are used and done in ways that the writers of shows think would be entertaining, but that doesn't mean they were the first ones to come up with the idea.

MattJ, are you just talking about using chi in an electric jolt fashion? That would require impregnating the energy with the command to do so. Chi itself doesn't zap anyone. Electricity can be used to zap. There is often the confusion of bioelectricity for chi. Chi is life force. Electricity is electricity.

Now, for Ed_Morris. Your condescention is out of line. Since you are so quick to jump on me about this, I get the impression that you are desperately trying to convince yourself on a regular basis that this doesn't exist. You'll probably reply to this, saying something along the lines of 'I don't want anymore disinformation being spread about things like this' or with something along the lines of wanting others to believe the way you believe.

Why don't you stop trying to act like a cult leader for this topic and let people think what they want. If what you feel is really true, then you should have faith that others as a whole will eventually see it that way after they have spent enough time playing with childish mind games. If you really don't have faith in your belief then, that's something you need to re-examin about yourself for yourself.

Kenpoman, I'm not gonna contact you to set up a test of any kind of abilities because I couldn't gather enough strength to actually care about proving it to others. My ego is not in the need to be stroked so badly, that I feel the need to tell others to shut up or always try to convince others to feel the way I do.

Let's do a hypothetical. Let's say I did come and meet you and we set up the test and let's say I did stop myself from getting wet with my 'magical chi-powers', as you like to call them (I wouldn't call it that). There is a very strong chance that you would come up with an idea of how I didn't use any powers to do that or just be so dumbfounded that you would just assume that it couldn't be what I said I was doing, but was something else because I still couldn't provide any kind of proof to support the notion that it happened as I said, since you came out so strongly, as did Matt and Ed. Since you have come out, like they did, it tells me that you aren't open to the possibility, so I'd doubt I'd even get a fair shake, since you're so adament about this view. Besides, I don't like the vibe you're giving off, so that's an additional reason for me not to do it.

So, what's the end result of this little trip? Most likely, I would have been out of the 1,000 dollars, the price of travel, lodging, food, etc. and wasted my time.

Now, why don't you three actually show the maturity I assumed originally you had the capacity for showing before you posted and not fall into the school yard rules trap of the one with the most backers of a view wins. I was given to understand that this board wasn't govern by school yard rules.

Edit: I get you guys don't want to believe in what I'm saying. I don't care if you don't. Nor am I gonna switch my belief just on the few say sos of people I don't know, especially when they provide such "roaring" evidence, such as 'are you on drugs' or 'if you can't provide evidence, STFU'. That kind of intellectual sparring matches are so good for keeping people on their toes, it's much more challenging than doing the crossword puzzle of a major metropolitan city's newspaper in pen. Unfortunately for you, there are those that don't believe as you do. And, as per the question of the first post in this thread, I did what was asked. You don't like it, talk to those running the board to change the rules of the forum.


Edited by RonH (09/26/06 02:55 PM)

Top
#287103 - 09/26/06 03:59 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: RonH]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
RonH -

Come on now. You must know better than to say that "I believe in XYZ" and not be able to support it. I am more than willing to accept proof of chi-zaps etc, IF someone can PROVE that they can do it. This has not happened - EVER.

So please do not berate me for my lack of faith. Prove me wrong.

Quote:

I don't like the vibe you're giving off, so that's an additional reason for me not to do it.




Sorry, but I found this humorously ironic in the context of a chi-projection thread. Kempoman, please stop projecting your negative chi at RonH! WAIT!!!! Maybe it IS possible!

Quote:

So, what's the end result of this little trip? Most likely, I would have been out of the 1,000 dollars, the price of travel, lodging, food, etc. and wasted my time.




Now that I can agree with you on.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#287104 - 09/26/06 04:02 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1993
Loc: Lorton, VA
"Dude, you're shielding."

Top
#287105 - 09/26/06 04:11 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: RonH]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you are talking your way out of it.

Quote:


1. give evidence of anyone ever damaging anything with just their 'chi'.

2. give evidence of how 'chi sensitivity' is measured.





or...as someone so eligantly suggested: 3. STFU.

lol

Top
#287106 - 09/26/06 04:17 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1993
Loc: Lorton, VA
Somewhere, three billy goats are trip-trapping on a bridge uncontested.

Top
#287107 - 09/26/06 04:18 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: RonH]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ron,

Obviously you’re eloquent in your postings and my comment was not aimed at you personally as much as the use of a metaphysically directed power. And yes, you were right about the historical framework for the thread about “chi balls.” You were answering this.

However, as Matt stated, I took exception at what appeared to be anecdotal info to base one’s reasoning that the use of chi, especially non-touch applications, exist. There has never, ever been disinterested, double blind tests that confirmed the existence of such things as chi-balls or psycho-kinetic energy or any of a multitude of different but similar powers.

In this case, an earnest person willing to seek the truth should be a skeptic to be proved wrong, not someone who believes despite evidence to the contrary.


Regards,

-B

Top
#287108 - 09/26/06 04:23 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
Quote:



2. give evidence of how 'chi sensitivity' is measured.

no need to answer...you can't. I understand.




Heyyy! I once read a story about two masters who held hands before a fight (yeah, sounds a bit gay, doesn't it?). This enabled them to feel eachothers chi and the one with a weaker chi withdrew without a single punch taking place.

And while I'm not saying its true, I tell you that myth is not one made up by westerners.. =) Too bad I don't remember where I read it anymore.
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

Top
#287109 - 09/26/06 08:00 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Zyranyth]
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
Some interesting debate going on here.

Please all remember to keep it to a debate and not make it personal, insulting, or to incite flame wars. IOW play nicely.

Thanks for your co-operation - otherwise the topic will be locked which would be a bit of a shame as its getting a bit more interesting.

--------------
Thanks for your order - would you like chi with that?
_________________________
Allow me to acquaint you with my friends Mr Jab and Mr Cross...

Top
#287110 - 09/26/06 09:00 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: RonH]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
RonH wrote
Quote:


That being said, damage can still be done by someone projecting/using a large amount of energy on someone that even has a low sensitivity to chi.





Thanks Ron! It is people like you who give me life on these forums!

Until someone can SHOW me instead of telling me about it, I'll believe. So far that's not happened. In fact, it's been NOTHING but talk.


http://www.randi.org/


-John

Top
#287111 - 09/26/06 11:31 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: JKogas]
Lucid Warrior Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 213
Loc: TwinCities, MN, U.S.
RonH, forget for a second about trying to convince anyone if these qi-zap techniques exist and work or not...

...Just tell me this, do you claim to be able to do qi-zaps or claim to know someone who does? Or do you just claim it's possible? If you can or know someone who can, then there is no harm in proving it, and you should show people in order to benefit them. The 'I don't need to stroke my ego' thing is a copout, there are plenty of other reasons why to show it (if it somehow did work). I think it would be pretty silly for you to be getting all worked up defending something you don't really even know for yourself to be something that is being used by anyone at all. So do you claim to be able to do qi-zaps or know someone who is able?

In closing, I have faith in what I have faith in, but I don't put my faith in things random people on the interweb claim. Put up proof or expect to be not believed. It's that simple, if you don't want to proove outragous claims, then be more careful about what you say, or at least don't expect anyone to believe. People put their faith in God, scientific fact, people they know and trust, and their own experiences, but they don't have to put their faith in random strangers on the internet. BTW, just what martial arts system teaches these things of which you speak?

Top
#287112 - 09/27/06 02:40 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: RonH]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Before addressing anything else here i'm going to comment on this statement first.

Quote:

You don't like it, talk to those running the board to change the rules of the forum.




Have you read the forum rules? This one looks fitting.

Quote:

6. This forum is NOT for the discussion of radki, anime, kiblasts, kiflames, kishields, pyrokenesis, telekenesis or any other form of kenesis. Posts on these will be removed.




With that out of the way i'll move on to the next issue. If you read through some of the older posts you will see why you got the responses you did. You’re not the first to make similar claims and oddly enough you’re not the first to get bent out of shape when asked for proof. You’re not the first to demand everyone else provide proof that your claims are false and you’re not the first to say your not going to prove anything because you don't need to or care what others think. If you didn’t care you wouldn’t have responded. You’re also not going to be the first to skirt the issue, back peddle and give infinite excuses as to why you’re not going to provide proof of these claims while claiming it's our fault for not being "open minded" enough. You’re also not the first to be told that we can't prove a negative. You are the one with the extraordinary claims so it is up to you to prove they are true.

While you are right, you are more than entitled to your opinion what you are going to find is that few if any existing members here are going to agree with you. This forum is NOT for the radki types contrary to what you might think. Some of the individuals who are going to disagree with you have quite a bit of experience in IMAs and MA in general. I myself have met several people in various countries around the world all who made similar claims, many of them claiming to be "masters", none of which could prove their claims when tested, all of them failing miserably.

What does this mean for you? You are the one who needs to "talk to those running the board to change the rules of the forum". In order for that to happen you will need to provide proof of your claims. This was the terms when i ran the forum and as the rules have yet to change i would imagine Reiki and Fisherman might feel the same way.

I have a novel idea, instead of this discussion running in circles as it has so many times in the past, you provide us with your location and specifics on exactly what it is that you claim you or someone you know can do and we test it. That way we will all have proof once and for all. I'm sure there is someone close to you that is willing to put this fire out once and for all. Even if your ego doesn't need to be stroked look at it this way, you could be the first person ever to provide proof that such claims are true. Information like this could change the face of the martial arts and how it's practiced forever.

Unfortunately i see you doing one of two things, or even both.

1. Talk in circles about belief, being close minded, wanting us to prove something doesn't exist and at some point completely loosing it and flying off the handle.

2. Offering to provide proof then disappearing forever.

Please prove me wrong. Don't be another Master Blaster.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

Top
#287113 - 09/27/06 08:55 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: laf7773]
RonH Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 19
You won, don't worry. You've done your job to turn me off this board. I don't want to be back here. Not with the level of vitriol you guys are wanting to send my way. Not with the condescension that's given from an administrator. Not when the best shouting argument seems to be put up or shut up. So, delete my profile, clear out my password. I won't be needing it anymore.

Top
#287114 - 09/27/06 10:44 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: RonH]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Par for the course.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

Top
#287115 - 09/27/06 10:50 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: laf7773]
Zombie Zero Offline
Compliance & Liability
Veteran

Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1993
Loc: Lorton, VA
He's taking his chi-ball and going home.

Top
#287116 - 09/27/06 11:16 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Zombie Zero]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
I thought the mysticism part was interesting and could explain a lot. I wonder if it could have been large buildups of static electricity or even optical illusions (magic tricks are pretty old). Just my 2 cents.
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

Top
#287117 - 09/27/06 11:26 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: stormbringer]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Isn't there a common chi kung exercise about holding a chi ball?

Personally I like chi balls and sweet/sour sauce.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#287118 - 09/27/06 01:54 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: trevek]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I scratch mine.

But of course, anyone who is asked to "prove" in an unbiased manner what he has presented himself and then run away when there isn't any prove to give...well, again, it is just a telling symptom of something that has never once been shown to be real and can't be given credence otherwise.

Top
#287119 - 09/27/06 02:10 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
LOL. Who would have expected this on a MA forum -

Quote:

Not when the best shouting argument seems to be put up or shut up.




So ironic.......

As my boss often tells me, "Do you need some tissues for your issues?"
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#287120 - 09/27/06 03:51 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: butterfly]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
Quote:

I scratch mine.





Ooh!!! I read alot, so here goes again:
I read somewhere that the genitals generate chi (I sorta thought it comes from somewhere else, but hey, I'm still just studying). Had something to do with the chinese viewing sexual intercourse differently than the westerners.. This was from a qigong article somewhere.

So who knows, maybe butterfly with his chi balls (say, scratching is an exercise isn't it??) might be more close to the truth than the whole lot of us.
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

Top
#287121 - 09/27/06 03:53 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Zyranyth]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Well...if that were true...women would have no chi?

Top
#287122 - 09/27/06 03:56 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: harlan]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
Alot of women have more balls than some men.
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

Top
#287123 - 09/27/06 03:57 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Zyranyth]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Bigger sticks, too.

Top
#287124 - 09/27/06 04:02 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Chicks with sticks?!

Top
#287125 - 09/27/06 04:02 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Well...if that were true...women would have no chi?




Women have genitals, too.

Beleive it or not, I read a similar article in Inside Kung Fu magazine about 1000 years ago. It cautioned against men having intercourse (orgasm specifically) too much, as this would deplete his chi.

It did not state that chi was produced by the genitals. However, it seems like some folks here probably need to 'deplete their chi' more often.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#287126 - 09/27/06 04:07 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
Quote:

It cautioned against men having intercourse (orgasm specifically) too much, as this would deplete his chi.





Omg! Choices choices!
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

Top
#287127 - 09/27/06 04:11 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Zyranyth]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Meh. Kid's stuff.

Top
#287128 - 09/27/06 04:22 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: harlan]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
Choices like who to use your Chi with? Make sure and practice safe Chi exercises, and don't prematurely Ki-yap.
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

Top
#287129 - 09/28/06 06:03 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
If I recall, it isn't so much the sex, it is the loss of semen which depletes the chi.

A Chinese sifu told me there is a proverb, "One drop of seed is 100 drops of blood" (especially if her brothers find out!).

Womed would thus gain chi by taking the semen.

I seem to recall a man (and any other interested parties) can receive chi from the woman's nipples (not sure if that is just female).
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#287130 - 09/28/06 07:35 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: trevek]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
I looked the qigong article up though, but I have it at home so I can't quote it exactly right now, but I'll do so later.

The article claims that stimulation of the sexual organs helps generate chi in bone marrow washing rituals (ie. cleaning your marrow so it produces clean red blood cells or something).

As I said tho, that's just what the article says.. I don't really have a personal opinion on the matter.
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

Top
#287131 - 09/28/06 07:39 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Zyranyth]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Ah, now I understand why they are called 'internal' arts.

And here was me thinking I'd mis-spelt the word 'martial'
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#287132 - 09/28/06 07:48 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: trevek]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
Note, the article was more about chi in chinese medicine than actual martial arts.
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

Top
#287133 - 09/28/06 03:44 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Bush, launching a pre-emptive chiball at the US constitution: HADOUKEN !


proof of medieval chi-balls:
http://l.lafage.free.fr/poubelle/hadoken.jpg

caddyshack chi
http://vidgames.scene.org/art/hadoken.jpg


Top
#287134 - 09/28/06 04:30 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: butterfly]
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
Quote:

Chicks with sticks?!




hmmm......
_________________________
Allow me to acquaint you with my friends Mr Jab and Mr Cross...

Top
#287135 - 09/29/06 01:37 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
Quote:

Bush, launching a pre-emptive chiball at the US constitution: HADOUKEN !





Scary, Bush looks a bit like Emperor Palpatine from Starwars in that picture.. in episodes 5/6 something..
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

Top
#287136 - 09/29/06 01:43 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Zombie Zero]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

"Dude, you're shielding."




Funniest...post...ever.



--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

Top
#287137 - 09/29/06 01:50 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: RonH]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

You won, don't worry. You've done your job to turn me off this board. I don't want to be back here. Not with the level of vitriol you guys are wanting to send my way. Not with the condescension that's given from an administrator. Not when the best shouting argument seems to be put up or shut up. So, delete my profile, clear out my password. I won't be needing it anymore.




Awww does your pee-pee hurt?

--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

Top
#287138 - 10/05/06 11:11 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Kempoman]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Back to the original question...
Where did "chi ball" come from?...
neutering "bull chis"...
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#287139 - 10/06/06 09:34 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
MastaFighta Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 260
Loc: United States
From what I can gather so far from everyones replies is that it just came from watching too much television. The thing I don't get is why. I mean, I'm a fan of Dragon Ball Z, but I know for a fact I can't do the things they do nor are those kinds of things possible.

Top
#287140 - 10/08/06 08:40 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MastaFighta]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
And just to think of all the silly people that also believe in angles(humans with wings hahahha), the Holy spirit, and Gods themselves. Can you silly people prove that these exist? I especially like the stories about gods raising people from the dead or gods themselves coming back from the dead. What a bunch of B.S.

Kevin

Top
#287141 - 10/08/06 09:21 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: pathfinder7195]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Kevin,
Religion is a topic that I would prefer we keep out of this discussion. It is in the rules of the forum, you can find them here.
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15737680

I am quite sure we can keep this on topic and not head down the road of beliefs etc. If this heads any furtherr down that road I will lock the topic and the debate can be carried on via PM.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

Top
#287142 - 10/09/06 01:21 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: pathfinder7195]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

And just to think of all the silly people that also believe in angles




You mean like Kurt Angle... he isn't real?

You'll tell me WWE isn't real next!

I always thought Angles were like Saxons, hence Anglo-Saxon.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#287143 - 10/09/06 05:28 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: trevek]
soulfiremage Offline
Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 37
I would have been really interested to see proof of such chi applications. Shame it fizzled to a load of well, um balls.

I first encountered chi balls from some martial arts movie with Don the Dragon in it and incidentally the "Death touch". The latter is more realistic as a proposition as the possibility of causing a clot in a precise location with the right pressure is believable, though a tough challenge.

I do healing work that seems to give results and get sensations (powerful ones) that seem similar to what chi folks describe. However, I started when I was a young kid, and I did honestly try are to make it do cool stuff. Never happened, ever, despite dripping with sweat, having masses of sensations in the spine and everything. Can't explain the healing part really, but I'm just happy it works enough to be of benefit. I do think the chi ball got adapted by anime etc.

Top
#287144 - 10/09/06 10:47 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: soulfiremage]
Risen Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/09/06
Posts: 12
I hope I don't seem rude, but have any of you ever actualy practiced the internal arts?

I have spent a long time studying these arts, and admittedly less in actualy practicing them. With that said, I believe certain amounts of energy can be circulated between the hands. What good it would do, I can't say. However, I suppose it would be possible to make physical contact with another person and do damage if you do it correctly. Perhaps similar to the secret techniques Chineese martial artists use that involve striking certain points a certain way with energy + physical contact to block the flow of energy and cause great damage.

Making balls of light, however, is most likely impossible. Life force/chi doesn't manifest that way. Same goes for the people who claim to project chi and move people froma distance. This is only possible because the people train together to become sensitive to chi, and have the will to allow such movement. Such things would be impossible with anybody not receptive to it or unwilling. That would be controling their energy directly, which wouldn't be possible. Although, it could be possible to move people and objects by projecting enrgy through matter, and say move the air to generate enough force to knock someone over. However, I doubt anyone has that sort of power or control. That would be more along the lines of psychokenisis.

Those are just my meandering thoughts .

Top
#287145 - 10/10/06 04:09 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Risen]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
Quote:

I hope I don't seem rude, but have any of you ever actualy practiced the internal arts?

I have spent a long time studying these arts, and admittedly less in actualy practicing them.




I haven't, but according to what you are saying, neither have you? I don't get your point. =p
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

Top
#287146 - 10/10/06 06:36 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MastaFighta]
ThomsonsPier Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Reading, UK
I've only practised a little in some internal aspects, but from what I've experienced (which I don't claim is anything remarkable), this whole load of chi balls may have come from a couple of things.

First, in some chi gong exercises, it's possible (and, indeed, likely) to 'feel' energy in the form of pressure, warmth, coolness or some other way. Because of the way the hands are generally held (as though around a ball), the brain's wonderful ability to make inference based on available inputs comes into play and you can 'feel' a physical sphere where you imagine the energy to be.

There is a chap in my kung fu class who seems particularly sensitive to having his energy manipulated. I've seen him, with his eyes shut so he couldn't see what my sifu was doing, move involuntarily in the direction his energy was being pushed or pulled (without physical contact). The visual effect is that of action at a distance through no discernable medium.

Combining the above two experiences, I think it's possible to see how you could draw the conclusion that chi can be projected in the form of an energy ball.

I don't think I've said anything new here, but I thought I'd lay out my musings for your perusal.
_________________________
ThomsonsPier

War. It's fan-tastic!

Top
#287147 - 10/10/06 04:56 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Risen]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

I hope I don't seem rude, but have any of you ever actualy practiced the internal arts?




Yes, xingyiquan for over a decade.

Quote:


I have spent a long time studying these arts, and admittedly less in actualy practicing them.




What is long? by your own admission you are only 17 years old. I have been practicing xingyiquan for over a decade and would be only considered a journeyman.
How long could you have studied?

Quote:

With that said, I believe certain amounts of energy can be circulated between the hands.




And I believe that there is an invisible pink unicorn behind you right now.

Quote:

What good it would do, I can't say. However, I suppose it would be possible to make physical contact with another person and do damage if you do it correctly.




My, my do tell.

Quote:

Perhaps similar to the secret techniques Chineese martial artists use that involve striking certain points a certain way with energy + physical contact to block the flow of energy and cause great damage.




Are the chineese different from the chinese? BTW I am a master instructor of Tuite/Kyusho jutsu which uses these points. Guess what no magic there either.

Quote:

Making balls of light, however, is most likely impossible. Life force/chi doesn't manifest that way. Same goes for the people who claim to project chi and move people froma distance. This is only possible because the people train together to become sensitive to chi, and have the will to allow such movement.




Yes, it is called suggestion, more speficically the reaction is anchored by a prestige suggestion (BTW I am a certified hypnotherapist/master stage hypnotist - by the Hypnosis Institute of Houston, Doug Yost, DCH).

Quote:

Such things would be impossible with anybody not receptive to it or unwilling. That would be controling their energy directly, which wouldn't be possible. Although, it could be possible to move people and objects by projecting enrgy through matter, and say move the air to generate enough force to knock someone over. However, I doubt anyone has that sort of power or control. That would be more along the lines of psychokenisis.




[childish tantrum] ooh, ooh, yeah then if you could set the air on fire it would be pyrokenesis..[/childish tantrum]

Right. Evidence Please.


--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

Top
#287148 - 11/21/06 03:03 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Kempoman]
djemboy2 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Florida USA
i can generate this 'chi ball' and alter it as well by thought
_________________________
A Punch only Hurts if it connects, be somewhere else before the connection is made

Top
#287149 - 11/21/06 04:59 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: djemboy2]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA


You have just been "stupid taxed". PM me for "payment" details.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#287150 - 11/21/06 05:23 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
KAAA MAAAA HAAAAAA MAAAAA HAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

Top
#287151 - 11/21/06 07:50 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: djemboy2]
LastGURU Offline
The one who knows
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Riga, Latvia
Quote:

i can generate this 'chi ball' and alter it as well by thought



and what do you do with them?

---
my oh my, i was out of this forum for too long, and this BS topic seems a good return point. hello, my friends and welcome me back

first of all i should say that i am always upset with both camps: those who believe in chi-balls and those who oppose them. and although i am usually joining the camp which oppose those chi-ballers, as most of them are either stupid, or crazy (or just plain stupid, and did i mention stupid as well...), i, however, do in fact accept the possibility of such thing, it is just that nobody has ever survived seeing any demonstrations, and is willing to share experience of people actually getting psychokinesis done... what actually can and is done, and proved to be possible is remote energy manipulations with Reiki (but Reiki practitioners do not move chairs without touching them, and do not kill people by looking at their photo, akaik). yeah, and you can do many interesting things with people by striking them in some special points, no magic there, i agree...

Quote:

I read somewhere that the genitals generate chi




ahh... so many people and nobody got it straight... I will not go into details now, as it is mostly offtopic, but in short, genitals are a good source of body energy called Jing; there are special exercises to make Chi (life force) out of Jing, and there are special exercises to make Shen (spirit, or spiritual energy) out of Chi. All of these are getting mixed up, not without the help of our radki "friends" and other posers. Make another topic if you want some more details, no reason for stating some ridiculous facts and scratching chi balls...

Quote:

BTW I am a certified hypnotherapist/master stage hypnotist - by the Hypnosis Institute of Houston, Doug Yost, DCH



and what you are not...

_________________________
Choice is an illusion created between those with power and those without

Top
#287152 - 11/22/06 12:06 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: LastGURU]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

genitals are a good source of body energy called Jing; there are special exercises to make Chi (life force) out of Jing


i just got thought. If you an generate life force and all that stuff why dont all those old kung fu guys live past 80? surely they can generate some life force? doesnt seem to help much with anything.
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

Top
#287153 - 11/22/06 10:53 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
djemboy2 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/06
Posts: 31
Loc: Florida USA
are there payment plans available?
_________________________
A Punch only Hurts if it connects, be somewhere else before the connection is made

Top
#287154 - 11/22/06 04:27 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: djemboy2]
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
Quote:

are there payment plans available?




You don't really want to know what payment plans are available!

Trust me, it will be singularly unpleasant.



_________________________
Allow me to acquaint you with my friends Mr Jab and Mr Cross...

Top
#287155 - 11/24/06 02:23 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: crablord]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Though I believe in Chi, I therefore found it deployable to watch G. Dillman confusing a 11-13 yr old child to think that he transfer Chi Balls back an forth between him and another older Black Belt. Mind control I think its called brainwashing.

I noticed that it didn't work on anybody that didn't have a like Gi on. Sad day for the MA when this gets meida attention. Keep it in the dojo until it works out of Gi, thats as open minded as I can get.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#287156 - 03/04/08 04:08 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MastaFighta]
wanmeditation Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/04/08
Posts: 1
In the west, there is a great misunderstanding about "CHI" or QI. There is a desire to SEE it. Originally, high masters who have reached immortality and enlightenment are said to have the ability to turn into light and project this light. Total mastery of the physical realm. BUT spinning off of these legends, military strategists realized that the best way to defend their nation was to create a mystique and fear that an immortal was on their side. SO, chinese alchemists created a burning chemical compound that was half on the left hand the half on the right hand. Then, upon rubbing the hands together, catalyzed by sweat, you had a chemical burn effect that you could throw into an opponent's eyes. The last thing they see is a smoking substance flying from your palms. These were the fortunate ones who would get safely escorted back to their homeland with stories of wizards, gods, and immortals to discourage any further attacks. The chemicals are easy to find online. Theres more to the story... Wan
_________________________
chi meditation

Top
#287157 - 03/04/08 07:38 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wanmeditation]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
haven't seen any ancient immortals walking around or claiming the Randi prize...but I've seen alot of modern immorals trying to sell it.

Top
#287158 - 03/04/08 12:26 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wanmeditation]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Wan

But wouldn't that produce "chemical burns" on your own hands as well???

Lots of warfare in and around ancient china can't seem to find anything about being afraid to attack beacuse of an "immortal being on" ones side.

Certainly didn't stop the Hsing Nu (sp) the Mongols, the Manchu etc.


Edited by cxt (03/04/08 12:27 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#287159 - 03/04/08 03:21 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: cxt]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
You'd think a two year time difference would kill a thread
_________________________
Livestrong Johnnyboxcutter!!

Top
#287160 - 03/04/08 05:42 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: crablord]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

genitals are a good source of body energy called Jing;




Now I know where the term "chi balls" comes from.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#287161 - 03/04/08 08:37 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: trevek]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
If all the ya-ya-ing is over on this, I'll try to answer the question in a civil manner...

The chi ball is a training technique for keeping the shape of your arms and hands rounded... much like the purpose of the taiji ruler. Think of it like holding a basketball, and then rolling it left and right, up and down... keeping your hands at the same distance apart. The purpose is apparent when someone grabs your wrist or arm, and you rotate to gain a mechanical advantage and disrupt their balance.

I know this current chi-ball panacea came from the anime' cartoons, but the anime' cartoonists got it from conversations about the training techniques... it's been around as long as I've been training, and while we used to joke about throwing chi balls at people, it seems that it was a natural progression to be "done" in the anime' cartoons... I'm just surprised that people who actually train using chi principles think they have to make a sideshow out of it.

If you want to practice using a chi-ball, simply do "kokyu ho" in an Aikido class...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#287162 - 03/05/08 08:24 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:

The chi ball is a training technique for keeping the shape of your arms and hands rounded...




It's so obvious, Grady--why doesn't everyone else get this? Do people think "Parting the Horse's Mane" is literally parting a horse's mane? No. Then why do they think "Hold the Ball" literally means holding a ball? Who knows. My Tai Chi teacher, Master Wei, describes "hold the ball" as a Chin Na technique (similar to how you described it). He has never described it as holding a glowing ball of energy. I love how colorful the Chinese are, but their metaphors are often misinterpreted.
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

Top
#287163 - 03/05/08 10:52 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: BodhiHuss]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
exactly. just like the literal interpretation of the other Chinese metaphors such as chi flow and meridians.

Top
#287164 - 03/05/08 12:04 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Here's a good one for the metaphor of chi flow--you always read that the body has to be relaxed for chi to flow. If you think of chi simply as physical energy, this statement rings true. For example, if you throw a punch with a rigid arm, the energy generated from the hips will stop at the shoulder. The chi (energy) will not flow (transfer) if the body is not relaxed. Make sense? The more I train, the more of this I discover. Anyone else come to similar conclusions?
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

Top
#287165 - 03/05/08 12:28 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: BodhiHuss]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The common misconception is to mistake "chi flow" with force, when the actual "impact" of a punch is force + outflow of chi. We generate a lot of forces mechanically, and some are generated "positionally", some with timing, contact surface, etc. When breath and timing are exactly "on" the target at the same time, we have an outflow of chi as well... if they're not, we see tremendous differences n the amount of force generation of punches, or throws for that matter.

The "chi ball" is a "positional metaphor", but chi flow and meridians are totally different concepts, not metaphors for structural movement.

Think of the number of things that must be correct for a "correct" punch...
stance
breath and exhaling on contact
timing
structure
contact with the target
movement into the target
hikki-te (drawing back of the opposite arm)
full body contraction
"sinking" of the "center" (dropping your hips as you rotate them)

Now, you can have a punch where any one of those elements are missing, and you have a totally different punch than when they are all there... a sort of force + chi but - structure, which is a different equation than when all the elements are there and working. Dynamically, it causes a major difference in power generation... same with throws... a missing element will make the throw more difficult or not work at all. When it's all there, there is an outflow of chi and a dynamic difference.

As for the meridians, Ed, they're there... try the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems and lymph systems. While it's a "combination" of those systems, they work pretty much as advertised and perform pretty much as the Chinese defined them thousands of years ago. Only the language has changed.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#287166 - 03/05/08 01:38 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:


Think of the number of things that must be correct for a "correct" punch...
stance
breath and exhaling on contact
timing
structure
contact with the target
movement into the target
hikki-te (drawing back of the opposite arm)
full body contraction
"sinking" of the "center" (dropping your hips as you rotate them)

Now, you can have a punch where any one of those elements are missing, and you have a totally different punch than when they are all there... a sort of force + chi but - structure, which is a different equation than when all the elements are there and working. Dynamically, it causes a major difference in power generation... same with throws... a missing element will make the throw more difficult or not work at all. When it's all there, there is an outflow of chi and a dynamic difference.




I don't see your evidence for chi/ki being different or seperate from physical force. The aspects of the correct punch you are describing are all physical and can be measured and observed physically. Chi described as mechanical force can also be measured and observed physically. Chi described as some mysterious metaphysical energy cannot be measured and observed. (If you disagree, you only have a few years left to claim the Randi prize.)

Herein lies the problem. Many people with knowledge of philosophy/martial arts/religion/whatever simply regurgitate what they have read without a thorough understanding of the concepts which they are purporting to know. It's like trying to teach someone how to become enlightened when you have not experienced enlightenment yourself. You can guide them in a certain way based on what you may have learned from others, but you will not be able to truly describe or explain the process if you have not experienced it.

I've read several hundred books on martial arts and philosophy. None of them has been as good a teacher as the training itself. Through training, I have actually begun to truly understand certain concepts (like the one described in my earlier post). Physical training has led me to my interpretation of chi/ki--I did not read this in a book.

So, until someone can measure chi/ki and prove its existance as something other than physical force, I will continue to interpret it in that way. Interpreting metaphors literally is what led us to this whole topic of Chi-balls anyway.

I am a believer in Chinese Medicine and have had good experiences with it, but as far as meridians go, there is very little scientific evidence to support their existence. I know Ed and Grady will be arguing over this for days.
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

Top
#287167 - 03/05/08 02:22 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Grady -

I agree with almost everything on your list of good punch attributes, but not this one:

Quote:

hikki-te (drawing back of the opposite arm)




Unneccesary, and not even a good idea against a resisting opponent, IMHO.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#287168 - 03/05/08 02:27 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

While it's a "combination" of those systems, they work pretty much as advertised and perform pretty much as the Chinese defined them thousands of years ago. Only the language has changed.




absolutely false. The name has stayed the same, but the maps have been redrawn to coincide more closely with modern anatomy. Unless you are claiming that you can find dim mak/pressure points by looking at a centuries-old freehand cartoon drawing with dots on it.

or maybe you are looking at the modern close-up TCM maps which have been overlaid using western science knowledge and hundreds of points added, but then made to look like they were authored in the Tang dynasty in order to sell the 'ancient lost knowledge' angle.


meh, these conversations always go to the same place: religion/beliefs.

it's no wonder why.

Top
#287169 - 03/05/08 08:55 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
No problem, Matt... you have to punch differently if you're sitting down, too... so that's a "general list" for a good, solid punch... it has a bit more "oomph" if you use the hikki-te, but it's not "the" major consideration. 99 times out of 100, that's explained as an "elbow strike to an attacker from behind", but it's just hikki-te in the real world... adding a little more into the strike.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#287170 - 03/05/08 09:39 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed, I've read and re-read my own post and I don't find where I was talking about maps or cartoons or anything like that. You seem to have a given set of arguments against meridian theory and always steer the conversation where you can repeat them... I've heard all that dozens of times from you...

I was taught my pressure point information by hitting and pressing on different points on the body... not cartoons or maps. You're welcome to train any way you choose. There were some places where we were shown very carefully where the effects of the strike manifested themselves, but I can't remember hitting a single chart or map in all that training... and I don't think you can find the hollows and rises in the body structure from charts either.

As James said, "the books" don't teach you the information, training does. Books, charts, etc. are only records, and very limited in the amount of actual information you can gather from them in physical arts. Like blind men describing an elephant, it depends on what part you have hold to that drives your "description". Is the elephant like his trunk or like his ears?... maybe his leg... or belly... who cares? ... kind of like who cares that meridian charts have been redrawn to "match western medicine" (your contention). That wasn't where I got my information to start with... they're just helpful in remembering some of the details of the physical study. It has nothing to do with beliefs or religion... it has to do with learning the body, it's systems, and how it works.

See if there's a good kung fu school in your area, and pay them a visit (one with a Chinese instructor). Most of the time, they will give you a real good demonstration of how the meridians go around the body. Tell them to hit one of the "puke" points in the arm or leg... and be sure to eat a good meal before you go... so you have plenty of ammunition when he shows you.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#287171 - 03/05/08 11:19 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

No problem, Matt... you have to punch differently if you're sitting down, too... so that's a "general list" for a good, solid punch... it has a bit more "oomph" if you use the hikki-te, but it's not "the" major consideration. 99 times out of 100, that's explained as an "elbow strike to an attacker from behind", but it's just hikki-te in the real world... adding a little more into the strike.






No it doesn't.

Grady,
You have been doing it all wrong for 45yrs +.

BTW,
What do we have to do to get rid of all these stupid chi-ball discussions? The dork who revived this thread had no clue what he has done,lol.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#287172 - 03/06/08 02:15 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Grady -

I agree with almost everything on your list of good punch attributes, but not this one:

Quote:

hikki-te (drawing back of the opposite arm)




Unneccesary, and not even a good idea against a resisting opponent, IMHO.




hikki-te is an essential part of a good punch. Forget all the over stylised crap taught in most Karate schools (although when done properly it is also an essential part of clinch striking too) the hikki-te is purely an expression of a cross extensor reflex. I put money , if you're punching proper anyhows, you're doing it without even realising. It's just correct body mechanics producing maximum leverage.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

Top
#287173 - 03/06/08 06:28 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I went off topic, appologies.

Top
#287174 - 03/06/08 07:56 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Gavin]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

hikki-te is an essential part of a good punch. Forget all the over stylised crap taught in most Karate schools (although when done properly it is also an essential part of clinch striking too) the hikki-te is purely an expression of a cross extensor reflex. I put money , if you're punching proper anyhows, you're doing it without even realising. It's just correct body mechanics producing maximum leverage.




Again Gav, I will have to disagree with the "essential" part of the argument.

Boxers do not pull their opposite hands back, and manage to KO people all the time - with gloves on. More essential to guard the face, IMHO.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#287175 - 03/06/08 08:00 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: BrianS]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:

The dork who revived this thread had no clue what he has done,lol.





Top
#287176 - 03/06/08 08:17 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Boxers do make use of the various cross extensor reflexes taught within hikki te concept. As I said look beyond the stylised crap of most karate. Boxers use waist torque to continually load shots in combinations. The hand going back is an external effect of an internal mechanic. Boxers do bring their hands back, in fact Boxing 101 is that when the right is out the left is tucked back on the chin and when the right is out the left is tucked back. This a defensive action but also loads the arm to quickly deliver power. Having had a few good Boxers to learn from, I guarantee you I've looked at the way they are smacking me. My regular training partner is a former Kick Boxer who fought at an international level and I've also been in the ring with Herol Graham. Both make use of cross extensor loading of the next shot, they just don't call it hikki te - again a case of people getting hooked up on the terminology and completely missing the principle. Anyone know hikki means?
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

Top
#287177 - 03/06/08 08:26 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Gavin]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Gav -

That's not really the same thing as what Grady is talking about. I totally agree with drawing the hand back to the face to guard, and do it all (most ) of the time, myself. The elbow does not go back past the plane of the body when I do it, which is different from what the trad folks are talking about.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#287178 - 03/06/08 08:33 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I can only presume Grady was talking about the same thing...

There is some interesting stuff in the Taiji body shapes that greatly enhance this effect from this in both a defensive and offensive capacity. The hollowing of the chest, raising of the back, softening the centre line, etc, etc. I'll have get Steve to smash me up a bit so I can do an article on it one day!

Anyway I think I've derailed this train wreck of a thread enough....resume normal programming!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

Top
#287179 - 03/06/08 01:35 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I didn't know you understand Japanese language (and actually, the word is connected to culture as well, so it's not just the literal dictionary meaning - but the meaning you get from actually learning the language and living there) - so tell us what 'hikki-te' is then...
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15987943


no you haven't derailed Gavin - I'm sure the topic of boxers demonstrating hikki-te has much more to do with chi-balls than when I 'derailed' by bringing up meridian hypothesis.


The way it works in the IMA/PP section is, if you mention something agreeable, then you are 'on topic'. mention something disagreeable, and it's off topic.

see?


on topic:
question: "where did chi-balls come from?"
answer: the immagination.

Top
#287180 - 03/06/08 06:25 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Gavin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Gavin,
I use several different types of punching, including fa jing striking, where the body "shake" is used. I know that the hikki te adds to the punch, but there are different types of cross extensor reflex movements that can be used. I'm just as apt to hit somebody with a "locked forearm" vertical Isshin Ryu punch as a "snap jab" or a traditional Shotokan punch or Shuri Ryu punch... then, again, you might just get one of those ugly Tai Chi punches that don't fit the "traditional mold"... It isn't what style or type you use... it's hitting with power that's important... and we're on the same page... there's just more than one way to skin a cat (not many ways that the cat likes it, though... )

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#287181 - 03/07/08 02:18 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Was trying to keep it simple mate. Was trying to emphasise that its not the arm movement of the hikki te that is important but the body mechanic that is powering it, pretty much the same for the punch at the end of the day. And how you access those cross extensors is as dynamic as the punch itself.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

Top
#287182 - 03/07/08 06:23 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Gavin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina


Someday, some of the real "krotty" people will learn that, and we'll see their game step up to being for real rather than As I tell students all the time, it's a "level of understanding" thing... once you understand the body mechanics... it's a whole different game... total control, and hitting a "ton"... not just "use control" instructions when you push your arms out.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

Top
#287183 - 03/12/08 11:34 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Reiki]
Usenthemighty Offline
Member

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
Dat was soo funny man!!

Top
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 ... 9 10 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga