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#287169 - 03/05/08 08:55 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
No problem, Matt... you have to punch differently if you're sitting down, too... so that's a "general list" for a good, solid punch... it has a bit more "oomph" if you use the hikki-te, but it's not "the" major consideration. 99 times out of 100, that's explained as an "elbow strike to an attacker from behind", but it's just hikki-te in the real world... adding a little more into the strike.

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#287170 - 03/05/08 09:39 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed, I've read and re-read my own post and I don't find where I was talking about maps or cartoons or anything like that. You seem to have a given set of arguments against meridian theory and always steer the conversation where you can repeat them... I've heard all that dozens of times from you...

I was taught my pressure point information by hitting and pressing on different points on the body... not cartoons or maps. You're welcome to train any way you choose. There were some places where we were shown very carefully where the effects of the strike manifested themselves, but I can't remember hitting a single chart or map in all that training... and I don't think you can find the hollows and rises in the body structure from charts either.

As James said, "the books" don't teach you the information, training does. Books, charts, etc. are only records, and very limited in the amount of actual information you can gather from them in physical arts. Like blind men describing an elephant, it depends on what part you have hold to that drives your "description". Is the elephant like his trunk or like his ears?... maybe his leg... or belly... who cares? ... kind of like who cares that meridian charts have been redrawn to "match western medicine" (your contention). That wasn't where I got my information to start with... they're just helpful in remembering some of the details of the physical study. It has nothing to do with beliefs or religion... it has to do with learning the body, it's systems, and how it works.

See if there's a good kung fu school in your area, and pay them a visit (one with a Chinese instructor). Most of the time, they will give you a real good demonstration of how the meridians go around the body. Tell them to hit one of the "puke" points in the arm or leg... and be sure to eat a good meal before you go... so you have plenty of ammunition when he shows you.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#287171 - 03/05/08 11:19 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

No problem, Matt... you have to punch differently if you're sitting down, too... so that's a "general list" for a good, solid punch... it has a bit more "oomph" if you use the hikki-te, but it's not "the" major consideration. 99 times out of 100, that's explained as an "elbow strike to an attacker from behind", but it's just hikki-te in the real world... adding a little more into the strike.






No it doesn't.

Grady,
You have been doing it all wrong for 45yrs +.

BTW,
What do we have to do to get rid of all these stupid chi-ball discussions? The dork who revived this thread had no clue what he has done,lol.
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#287172 - 03/06/08 02:15 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Grady -

I agree with almost everything on your list of good punch attributes, but not this one:

Quote:

hikki-te (drawing back of the opposite arm)




Unneccesary, and not even a good idea against a resisting opponent, IMHO.




hikki-te is an essential part of a good punch. Forget all the over stylised crap taught in most Karate schools (although when done properly it is also an essential part of clinch striking too) the hikki-te is purely an expression of a cross extensor reflex. I put money , if you're punching proper anyhows, you're doing it without even realising. It's just correct body mechanics producing maximum leverage.
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#287173 - 03/06/08 06:28 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I went off topic, appologies.

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#287174 - 03/06/08 07:56 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Gavin]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

hikki-te is an essential part of a good punch. Forget all the over stylised crap taught in most Karate schools (although when done properly it is also an essential part of clinch striking too) the hikki-te is purely an expression of a cross extensor reflex. I put money , if you're punching proper anyhows, you're doing it without even realising. It's just correct body mechanics producing maximum leverage.




Again Gav, I will have to disagree with the "essential" part of the argument.

Boxers do not pull their opposite hands back, and manage to KO people all the time - with gloves on. More essential to guard the face, IMHO.
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#287175 - 03/06/08 08:00 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: BrianS]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:

The dork who revived this thread had no clue what he has done,lol.





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#287176 - 03/06/08 08:17 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Boxers do make use of the various cross extensor reflexes taught within hikki te concept. As I said look beyond the stylised crap of most karate. Boxers use waist torque to continually load shots in combinations. The hand going back is an external effect of an internal mechanic. Boxers do bring their hands back, in fact Boxing 101 is that when the right is out the left is tucked back on the chin and when the right is out the left is tucked back. This a defensive action but also loads the arm to quickly deliver power. Having had a few good Boxers to learn from, I guarantee you I've looked at the way they are smacking me. My regular training partner is a former Kick Boxer who fought at an international level and I've also been in the ring with Herol Graham. Both make use of cross extensor loading of the next shot, they just don't call it hikki te - again a case of people getting hooked up on the terminology and completely missing the principle. Anyone know hikki means?
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#287177 - 03/06/08 08:26 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Gavin]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Gav -

That's not really the same thing as what Grady is talking about. I totally agree with drawing the hand back to the face to guard, and do it all (most ) of the time, myself. The elbow does not go back past the plane of the body when I do it, which is different from what the trad folks are talking about.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#287178 - 03/06/08 08:33 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I can only presume Grady was talking about the same thing...

There is some interesting stuff in the Taiji body shapes that greatly enhance this effect from this in both a defensive and offensive capacity. The hollowing of the chest, raising of the back, softening the centre line, etc, etc. I'll have get Steve to smash me up a bit so I can do an article on it one day!

Anyway I think I've derailed this train wreck of a thread enough....resume normal programming!
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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