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#287159 - 03/04/08 03:21 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: cxt]
Vennificus Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 206
Loc: The frozen realms of Kah-Nah-D...
You'd think a two year time difference would kill a thread
_________________________
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#287160 - 03/04/08 05:42 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: crablord]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

genitals are a good source of body energy called Jing;




Now I know where the term "chi balls" comes from.
_________________________
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#287161 - 03/04/08 08:37 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: trevek]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
If all the ya-ya-ing is over on this, I'll try to answer the question in a civil manner...

The chi ball is a training technique for keeping the shape of your arms and hands rounded... much like the purpose of the taiji ruler. Think of it like holding a basketball, and then rolling it left and right, up and down... keeping your hands at the same distance apart. The purpose is apparent when someone grabs your wrist or arm, and you rotate to gain a mechanical advantage and disrupt their balance.

I know this current chi-ball panacea came from the anime' cartoons, but the anime' cartoonists got it from conversations about the training techniques... it's been around as long as I've been training, and while we used to joke about throwing chi balls at people, it seems that it was a natural progression to be "done" in the anime' cartoons... I'm just surprised that people who actually train using chi principles think they have to make a sideshow out of it.

If you want to practice using a chi-ball, simply do "kokyu ho" in an Aikido class...

_________________________
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#287162 - 03/05/08 08:24 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:

The chi ball is a training technique for keeping the shape of your arms and hands rounded...




It's so obvious, Grady--why doesn't everyone else get this? Do people think "Parting the Horse's Mane" is literally parting a horse's mane? No. Then why do they think "Hold the Ball" literally means holding a ball? Who knows. My Tai Chi teacher, Master Wei, describes "hold the ball" as a Chin Na technique (similar to how you described it). He has never described it as holding a glowing ball of energy. I love how colorful the Chinese are, but their metaphors are often misinterpreted.
_________________________
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#287163 - 03/05/08 10:52 AM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: BodhiHuss]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
exactly. just like the literal interpretation of the other Chinese metaphors such as chi flow and meridians.

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#287164 - 03/05/08 12:04 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: Ed_Morris]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Here's a good one for the metaphor of chi flow--you always read that the body has to be relaxed for chi to flow. If you think of chi simply as physical energy, this statement rings true. For example, if you throw a punch with a rigid arm, the energy generated from the hips will stop at the shoulder. The chi (energy) will not flow (transfer) if the body is not relaxed. Make sense? The more I train, the more of this I discover. Anyone else come to similar conclusions?
_________________________
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#287165 - 03/05/08 12:28 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: BodhiHuss]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The common misconception is to mistake "chi flow" with force, when the actual "impact" of a punch is force + outflow of chi. We generate a lot of forces mechanically, and some are generated "positionally", some with timing, contact surface, etc. When breath and timing are exactly "on" the target at the same time, we have an outflow of chi as well... if they're not, we see tremendous differences n the amount of force generation of punches, or throws for that matter.

The "chi ball" is a "positional metaphor", but chi flow and meridians are totally different concepts, not metaphors for structural movement.

Think of the number of things that must be correct for a "correct" punch...
stance
breath and exhaling on contact
timing
structure
contact with the target
movement into the target
hikki-te (drawing back of the opposite arm)
full body contraction
"sinking" of the "center" (dropping your hips as you rotate them)

Now, you can have a punch where any one of those elements are missing, and you have a totally different punch than when they are all there... a sort of force + chi but - structure, which is a different equation than when all the elements are there and working. Dynamically, it causes a major difference in power generation... same with throws... a missing element will make the throw more difficult or not work at all. When it's all there, there is an outflow of chi and a dynamic difference.

As for the meridians, Ed, they're there... try the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems and lymph systems. While it's a "combination" of those systems, they work pretty much as advertised and perform pretty much as the Chinese defined them thousands of years ago. Only the language has changed.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#287166 - 03/05/08 01:38 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:


Think of the number of things that must be correct for a "correct" punch...
stance
breath and exhaling on contact
timing
structure
contact with the target
movement into the target
hikki-te (drawing back of the opposite arm)
full body contraction
"sinking" of the "center" (dropping your hips as you rotate them)

Now, you can have a punch where any one of those elements are missing, and you have a totally different punch than when they are all there... a sort of force + chi but - structure, which is a different equation than when all the elements are there and working. Dynamically, it causes a major difference in power generation... same with throws... a missing element will make the throw more difficult or not work at all. When it's all there, there is an outflow of chi and a dynamic difference.




I don't see your evidence for chi/ki being different or seperate from physical force. The aspects of the correct punch you are describing are all physical and can be measured and observed physically. Chi described as mechanical force can also be measured and observed physically. Chi described as some mysterious metaphysical energy cannot be measured and observed. (If you disagree, you only have a few years left to claim the Randi prize.)

Herein lies the problem. Many people with knowledge of philosophy/martial arts/religion/whatever simply regurgitate what they have read without a thorough understanding of the concepts which they are purporting to know. It's like trying to teach someone how to become enlightened when you have not experienced enlightenment yourself. You can guide them in a certain way based on what you may have learned from others, but you will not be able to truly describe or explain the process if you have not experienced it.

I've read several hundred books on martial arts and philosophy. None of them has been as good a teacher as the training itself. Through training, I have actually begun to truly understand certain concepts (like the one described in my earlier post). Physical training has led me to my interpretation of chi/ki--I did not read this in a book.

So, until someone can measure chi/ki and prove its existance as something other than physical force, I will continue to interpret it in that way. Interpreting metaphors literally is what led us to this whole topic of Chi-balls anyway.

I am a believer in Chinese Medicine and have had good experiences with it, but as far as meridians go, there is very little scientific evidence to support their existence. I know Ed and Grady will be arguing over this for days.
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

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#287167 - 03/05/08 02:22 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Grady -

I agree with almost everything on your list of good punch attributes, but not this one:

Quote:

hikki-te (drawing back of the opposite arm)




Unneccesary, and not even a good idea against a resisting opponent, IMHO.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#287168 - 03/05/08 02:27 PM Re: Where did "chi ball" come from? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

While it's a "combination" of those systems, they work pretty much as advertised and perform pretty much as the Chinese defined them thousands of years ago. Only the language has changed.




absolutely false. The name has stayed the same, but the maps have been redrawn to coincide more closely with modern anatomy. Unless you are claiming that you can find dim mak/pressure points by looking at a centuries-old freehand cartoon drawing with dots on it.

or maybe you are looking at the modern close-up TCM maps which have been overlaid using western science knowledge and hundreds of points added, but then made to look like they were authored in the Tang dynasty in order to sell the 'ancient lost knowledge' angle.


meh, these conversations always go to the same place: religion/beliefs.

it's no wonder why.

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