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#286076 - 09/24/06 11:12 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I am still at a loss as to where you have come by this concept that kata implies a two man form rather than a form in more general terms. Certail a kata could be a two man form, but not necessarily. As I have mentioned before, in 9 years of training in MJER, and in close to 6 years of reading and participating in the online JSA community, you are quite literally the very first person to ever make that assertion that I can recall. I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong mind. It wouldn't be the first time I thought I knew something only to turn out to be wrong.

To clear up one more thing, I think I was less than clear about the use of the term kumitachi. It is descriptive rather than the name of something. Ie. The first kata in Tachi Uchi no Kurai would be referred to as a kumitachi kata, or a kumitachi waza. It would not be referred to as a kumitachi. Ie, it's not really a noun. A two man kata is a kumitachi kata. A solo kata is not a kumitachi kata. Therefore the use of the term kata to describe solo forms does not necessarily raise a red flag in my mind.

I value your comments and opinions as well and know you would not intentionally misuse a term.


Edited by Charles Mahan (09/24/06 11:28 PM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#286077 - 09/25/06 12:26 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Geeees

Ok, cxt.

The word “kata” I have seen EVERYwhere defined as ‘form’ so I will use those references thank you. If my sensei is aware of what kata means and is qualified to teach, then he may damn well use the word kata.
As someone previously stated, I know 2 person flow drills as kumetachi.
Obviously, kata can mean 2 person drills too.
But it does NOT mean that there is a “red flag” because my sensei prefers to use “kata” when referring to solo practice.
May I also add that you do not fully understand the ‘context’ and therefore are in no place to judge on something so ambiguous.
Furthermore, the fact that “kata” is used GENERALLY for 2 person drills in koryu, does not make is EXCLUSIVELY.

Quote:

(Heres a thought--since YOU tend to use "kumitachi" then Marshiten use of the "kata" should have rung a bit off to your ears as well--as "kata" would just as foriegn in this context to YOU--as Marshitens use of the word sounded to ME.
From YOUR perspective, what Marshiten was describing as "kata" isn't YOUR term either )




I believe Charles refers 2-person drills to kumetachi – as I do. So your reasoning there is off.

Quote:

2-The exception is iaijutsu/iaido. Which by its very nature demands such a practice.




I mentioned this already, we DO elements iaijutsu/do.


I have looked this up repetitively and have found no evidence to support your claim of “kata” usage in koryu. If you could give me something to refer to it would be appreciated. Like you said, you don’t make assertions you can’t support.



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#286078 - 09/25/06 10:52 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Marshiten

You may have seen it defined that way in karate.

(odd that you missed it in so many different koryu material )

But its a red flag in context with the other odd goings-on with what you have posted about your school.

Not the first person here to point out how many times you have contridicted yourself in this discussion.

But lets deal with ANOTHER ONE.

You have NEVER called it "kumitachi" in this discussion--UNTIL CHARLES USED THE WORD.

Interesting timeing don't you think???

Given your above demonstrated propensity to co-op the terms of others.

I think I will pass on providing you with any additional proper terms---judgeing by the above little distortion, you'll probably just sorta "borrow" anything I feed you.

Like I said, don't know everything--but I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday.

I got into this discussion thinking I was helping you.

But given your flip-flopping and contridiction, I'm starting to get the distinct impression that your an active particpent in the odd going's on there.

I'm a bit slower on the up-take than the other folks who stopped interacting with you days ago--for pretty much the same reasons.

From this point foreward, my "help desk" line is closed to you.

Complaint line is still open of course.


Edited by cxt (09/25/06 02:52 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286079 - 09/27/06 01:14 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Excuse me, I’ve known about Kumetachi before I signed up here thank you. I’m not sure if I posted it in a post before or after Charles, but I did not SEE his post until after I posted. Just because I haven’t used the word on this forum doesn’t mean I wasn’t aware of it.

O, and…WHAT “odd” goings-on??? My sensei calling solo practice kata? Our more rough than usual training? Uh huh….

If you’re going to pass on providing evidence to back up your claim about “kata” – then I’m sorry but YOU’RE contradicting yourself, you who never say anything you can’t back up.

I would like to know where I have contradicted myself. And I want direct quotes, not assumptions. And if you can’t be bothered looking, well that’s not good enough. Don’t accuse if you can’t do it properly, don’t judge me to be an active participant in the odd goings on in the dojo (if there’s anything odd there, trust me, I’m the LEAST to blame hehe) and don’t assume you know the situation.

If the help desk is closed, fine – I never asked to be taken there. It’s been an invigorating and somewhat enlightening debate from which I’m walking away with MORE opinions, my old ones remaining unchanged.

Hey, maybe when I’m no longer a junior member I might be named the Resident Bitch. All cool with me.

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#286080 - 09/27/06 12:08 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Marshiten

Ok. "compliant" desk it is.

You ask me where you contridict yourself.

Ok.

You said on 9/25/06 12:26:

"I belive Charles refers to 2 person drills as kumetachi--as do I."

Yet on 9/27/06 01:14 Am

You say:

"I'm not sure if I posted it in a post before or after Charles, but I did not SEE it until after I posted."

If you "did not SEE it until after you posted" then how in the name of god (small "g" ) could you have ref DIRECTLY TO IT AND TO CHARLES BY NAME????????

Quite the trick to refer directly to a post you claim to have never seen.

We have a 6 PAGE discussion and the first time the word "kumitachi" comes out of your lips is right after Charles uses it?

As far as other "contridictions" go---several other folks have already pointed THOSE out as well.

I ONLY know what you tell me.
If what you tell me is wrong---then that is clearly not my fault.

You don't know whats "odd?"

Go back and look at 6 PAGES of people telling you in great detail EXACTLY what stikes them as off.

You don't wish to listen?

Fine.

But don't claim that people have NOT been very detailed and very through in providing the requested details.

You being a self admitted "newbie" I would have perhaps expected a bit more of an open mind----but as you say, your "opinions remain unchanged."

You ever here the saying "nobody knows more about karate than a green belt---just ask them."

Seems that its NOT just karate.


Edited by cxt (09/27/06 03:58 PM)

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#286081 - 09/28/06 03:37 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
I find it odd (and rather irrelevant) that you always edit your posts ... there is a little box you can tick taht makes it so it doesn't show as edited that's my tip of the day.

o...and:
post #15885007 by ME was
Quote:

I think we may have some differences in our terminology.
I refer “kata” to one-person activities, “in the air” as someone previous described it on this forum. (“Training is usually practiced in solo form (kata), but also has partner forms (kumetachi”




post #15886073 by CHARLES:
Quote:

That's why I challenged you on the point. You asserted that it is generally true that in koryu arts kata implies two man forms. The general term for that which I am familiar with is kumitachi.




and the quote you cited was AFTER this.

True I cited "kumitachi" from a site, because I assumed that's what people wanted, since my "knowledge" was not valid unless backed up.
But cxt, really, accusing someone of not knowing what a word was before someone else mentioned is a bit naive. Regardless of when I mentioned it, I still knew about it. Our sensei often uses both "flow drills" and "kumitachi" interchangably.

what others have pointed out as being contradictions has already been rebutted by me, so thank you for not bringing it up again

also, yeh you only know what I tell you. However it's wrong to assume that the speaker is always at fault when the listener doesn't understand.

anyway cxt this verbal tennis is rather exhausting

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#286082 - 09/28/06 10:51 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
This thread is degenerating into a he said she said match. It doesn't seem to be on topic at all anymore. I am loathe to lock threads unless they get really bad, but this one seems to be wandering off into pointless bickering.

CXT,

Neither you, nor anyone else on the thread is going to convince Marishiten any further than she has already been convinced. She now admits that what she trains in is not koryu and that it is instead a more modern style including some techniques the origin of which have not be determined to date.

Marishiten,
You also are not going to change any minds regarding what you do without providing more solid information. Nobody is gonna take your word for things. It's not personal. It's just the way of things online. Too many frauds running around. Too many with sincere students who try to protect them online. I'm not saying this is the situation you are in mind. I only bring it up as a way of explaining the general level skepticism you will encounter in various JSA forums. It's a sad situation, but a well founded one based on a great deal of past experience.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#286083 - 09/28/06 12:32 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Marshiten

I make changes, I want people to KNOW that I made changes.

Why would you wish to hide it?????

Unless your going back and makeing changes you hope no-one is going to see.

Sorry Charlie--that still does not explain how you managed to refer to a post you claim to have never seen.

Again, how can you refer directly to a post--by NAME that you claim to have never seen??
I mean you kinda have to have seen it to refer to it.

And nope--you have not "rebutted" anything, spurious excuses you HAVE made--but "rebutted"--not even close.

Oh, NOW its "our sensei uses flow drills and kumitachi interchangable."

Weird, maybe you can ahm....."borrow" some more of Charles terms--or perhaps "name drop" from other websites.

"Exhausting" yes I suppose it is.

Playing it fast and loose with the truth usually is more tiresome than just being honest for the get-go.

Requires A LOT more work--as you have so repeatadly demonstrated.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286084 - 09/28/06 01:09 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Ok. I'm locking this thread. I'm getting complaints about the bickering from other forum members. The thread ceased to be informative in any way some time ago and is now only sowing disharmony.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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