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#286016 - 09/17/06 04:03 AM No Pain no Gain
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Hello all, I just joined.
I practice Kryu Bu Jutsu and Batto-jutsu with elements of Tatsumi ryu, Muso Shinden ryu, with monthly Kenjutsu, even some Arnis, etc.

When I recently went to visit another Dojo with a man I met who taught AikiJutsu but was also versed in the sword arts, he was amazed that we wore no armour (except for Kenjutsu) and sparred heavily with ironwood bokkens.

So many people I have met are against any sort of pain and discomfort while practicing something they're paying for. I think the Martial Arts has become so commercialised that people are viewing themselves as clients of their sensei, so why get cuts and bruises?

I used a foam 'bokken' in this other dojo so I wouldn't get hurt. I was told to take it easy while grappling and locking. I received pitying glances when I showed my various bruises and scratches.

What these people don't understand is that within the 1 year (yes i'm still new at this!) of training in my dojo with my sensei I have become to view my cuts and bruises as a learning experience, like a map of my journey on my body, to put it sentimentally.

I have been knocked on the head, I have had swollen knuckles, colourful bruises, but without them I would not have learned to make these blocks as effectively as I have. I have also become unbelievably conditioned to pain. It's strenghthened me internally, the person I am has become stronger, not just my body.

Does anyone have any similar opinions? Or does someone think differently? I'm interested to hear from other Martial Artists....

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#286017 - 09/17/06 05:20 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
hey man, no pain no gain is my motto when im using my damn hardwood nunchucks. In fact im writing this with a black eye
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#286018 - 09/17/06 08:53 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: crablord]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
it's kind of amusing that you're callin me 'man'. I'm female, but am known as the honourary male in the dojo! I'm the only girl and am often grouped in with the 'boys'. I don't get any special treatment but being female does sometimes have its advantages. You could say I get the best of both worlds.

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#286019 - 09/17/06 09:26 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
The way you are being trained is not particularly Japanese. It is unnecessarily dangerous. If you are careful enough with your cuts that you will not severely injure your opponent, then you are doing the techniques in a corruptive manner. If you do them with the intent of killing your opponent as you should, then seirous injury will result.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#286020 - 09/17/06 10:27 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

Does anyone have any similar opinions? Or does someone think differently? I'm interested to hear from other Martial Artists....



Okee dokee ... As far as the sword arts are concerned, I see absolutely no real value in what you are doing. It seems to me that if this method of training was truly effective for learning the Japanese sword arts, then those that used to have to depend upon the arts to preserve their lives would have trained in this fashion. This is not the case. Every koryu, without exception, trains utilizing solo and paired kata as the primary training tools.

Because of the fact that your school does NOT do this, I believe it is safe to say that your instructor did not earn a teaching license from a legitimate school of the Japanese sword. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

My personal opinion is that allowing junior members such as yourself to whack at each other with bokken is simply a terrible tragedy waiting to happen.

Quote:

I think the Martial Arts has become so commercialised that people are viewing themselves as clients of their sensei, so why get cuts and bruises?



Perhaps it is more along the lines of "This is how the art has been taught for several hundred years. Why would I think that I could possibly know more about it than those who used to actually have to depend upon it for survival?"
_________________________
Paul

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#286021 - 09/17/06 11:07 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
mercierarmory Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska
I agree with you but not if the fighter is newer (less than a couple years of training). I get my fair share of cuts and bruises, as well as a couple broken fingers. I fight medieval longsword and we use both the wooden training sword as well as rebated steel. The only time I wear armour is when I am doing demos for things like schools or renaissance faires and the rest of the time I am wearing either just a t-shirt or a lightly padded jacket.

Now granted, we dont go full speed on eachother when not wearing armour, but even a 1/2 to 3/4 speed hit to the hip bone (like I did last thursday) will cut you open and leave you limping for a couple days.

I believe in the "no pain no gain" approach to an extent. If I get hit somewhere, and it hurts, perhaps I should learn not to get hit there again. However, as I said at the beginning of this rant, this approach is highly inappropriate for any new student that is probably not comfortable around the weapon as much as someone with say 5 years is. Every student of the sword arts is different, but finding that comfortable buffer zone for that approach, as to what is too much, is vital. Also, as an instructor, I have never once mentioned to one of my students to do this. If they take that path on their own, so be it. I have found it to be very effective, and if it improves their training as well, I'm happy.

Mike

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#286022 - 09/17/06 08:25 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: mercierarmory]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
I don't know how anyone can judge that the way I train isn't particularly Japanese based on one of my posts. We're very traditional actually. Do you think that the Japanese trained with armour and foam bokkens? No. They used the wooden bokkens and trained in gi and hakama at the MOST.

We have had no INJURIES per se. Beginners spar stop-start, then lightly, the full speed/force if they are capable. I'm 7th kyu, should be graded 6th soon, and I'm capable of spalling full force but not full speed yet. I can block those cuts very effectively. You know why? Because I know that if I don't I run the possibility of getting hit. Sure my partner is probably able to stop a milimetre away from me if i don't, but do I want to risk that? And I suppose I should add that only the higher grades go full speed and force during RANDORE ... everything I go full speed/force in are drills i know the movementes to, such as Migi.

So keeping this in mind; the fact that what we're doing is 'dangerous' and the fact that my sensei was practically called illigitemate ... well I'm sorry but it takes great skill to get his students where they are, to a point where they're being as realistic as possible without injury, and it's something you won't be lucky enough to witness. Don't doubt his legitimacy - it's laughable.

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#286023 - 09/18/06 08:09 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

Don't doubt his legitimacy - it's laughable.




You seem to be confused. Legitimacy has little to do with skill. Your teacher could be the best swordsman to ever grace the face of the planet, yet if he isn't connected to a Japanese tradition through a living line, he is not legitimate. That's all there is to it, no amount of skill will make anyone legitimate.

If you want to say your teacher is legitimate, you say who he studied with, how long, what rank/menjo he obtained, and how that teacher is connected to a living line. Not how good he is and how much skill it takes to bring someone to 6th kyu in an art.

I have no opinion either way, but if you're going to argue, you should at least be clear as to what it is you're arguing about.

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#286024 - 09/18/06 08:40 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: splice]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
I am not getting confused between skill and legitimacy. Furthermore I did not bring up the argument of my sensei’s legitimacy; at no point did I mention it.
However, he's legitimate enough in the Western world (has menkyo) and has been taught in Japan and is respected by Japanese Senseis, and that makes him legitimate enough without getting to the official technicalities
He has about 30 years experience and is only in his mid 40s. He’s an instructor in various other MAs too. I am not sure which Dan he is because I have never asked, considering it to be kind of rude. I was told once, but it being a long time ago and me being a new student, I did not retain that information.
Having a Japanese lineage doesn’t change A THING in the practical sense; it doesn’t imply that you know the proper technique or that it is effective. And for the sake of my ORIGINAL argument, whether he has Japanese lineage or not is even less relevant.

The reason I did not provide this information because I felt it to be not my place to argue on my sensei’s behalf using information I could never be 100% certain of. It feels disrespectful. He may not be recognized officially as a Sensei in Japan, but he is known and respected. It does not detract from his legitimacy here.

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#286025 - 09/18/06 08:56 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

I am not getting confused between skill and legitimacy. Furthermore I did not bring up the argument of my sensei’s legitimacy; at no point did I mention it.




Even more confusion. You did not mention legitimacy? Truly?

Quote:

So keeping this in mind; the fact that what we're doing is 'dangerous' and the fact that my sensei was practically called illigitemate




Quote:

Don't doubt his legitimacy - it's laughable




These are direct quotes. You did talk about legitimacy, and you even warned people about doubting it. That certainly counts as a mention. Not that I care, but if you're going to tell people not to doubt your teacher's legitimacy because he has great skill, and then saying you never mentionned anything about legitimacy in your next reply is pretty nonsensical.

Quote:

Having a Japanese lineage doesn’t change A THING in the practical sense; it doesn’t imply that you know the proper technique or that it is effective.




Partly agree. It certainly doesn't imply that the technique is effective, no. However, legitimacy means proper technique. Not necessarily effective, but certainly proper and correct.

Quote:

And for the sake of my ORIGINAL argument, whether he has Japanese lineage or not is even less relevant




Perhaps not to you, but you are not the center of the universe. To many people who practice Traditional Japanese Sword Arts, lineage and legitimacy are the very core of the art. After all, if you don't consider that relevant, what is? I'm reasonably certain you will never have a real swordfight, never kill anyone with a sword, and never use the techniques you learn in class. If the practical application is simply not there, and you decide to discard all the tradition that is the art, what are you left with? A dance.

Quote:


The reason I did not provide this information because I felt it to be not my place to argue on my sensei’s behalf using information I could never be 100% certain of. It feels disrespectful. He may not be recognized officially as a Sensei in Japan, but he is known and respected. It does not detract from his legitimacy here.




If you're not certain of your information, you really have no place to even speak about it. It's rather silly to withhold information, not even be sure about it, and yet insist that people should take the legitimacy of a teacher for granted. That's not the way it's done.

If he is not recognized officially, I am sorry but that's all there needs to be said about legitimacy. I'm sure he has nice friends and students and everything, but official recognition establishes legitimacy, not good feelings and opinions.

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#286026 - 09/18/06 09:47 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

However, he's legitimate enough in the Western world (has menkyo) and has been taught in Japan and is respected by Japanese Senseis, and that makes him legitimate enough without getting to the official technicalities





Menkyo in what art? Taught by what Japanese sensei? Since lineage has come up let's get the cards on the table so we're all on the same page.

Quote:


He has about 30 years experience and is only in his mid 40s. He’s an instructor in various other MAs too. I am not sure which Dan he is because I have never asked, considering it to be kind of rude.




Asking after a teachers credentials is not rude. It's very prudent. There are a tremendous number of frauds running around. Real instructors will not be offended. Why should they be? They have their credentials readily at hand. Nothing to fear. It is the reason such documentation exists.

Quote:


Having a Japanese lineage doesn’t change A THING in the practical sense; it doesn’t imply that you know the proper technique or that it is effective.




Having a direct connection to ryu-ha in Japan does imply to a certain extent that the practitioner knows what he is doing, especially when combined with a teaching license of some variety or other. Let me reword your post a little bit substituting in another discipline for JSA and we'll see how it sounds.

Quote:


Having a license to perform surgery doesn’t change A THING in the practical sense; it doesn’t imply that you know the proper technique or that it is effective.






Quote:

The reason I did not provide this information because I felt it to be not my place to argue on my sensei’s behalf using information I could never be 100% certain of. It feels disrespectful. He may not be recognized officially as a Sensei in Japan, but he is known and respected. It does not detract from his legitimacy here.




The complaint is not that what he is teaching and the way he is teaching it will not make you a competent fighter. What we are saying, or at least what I am saying, is that it is not traditional JSA. This is not the way the JSAs are taught. It might be effective. It might not be. You'll never know for sure because you will never be able to test it in real battle. The arts that were tested in real battle have decided that this method of teaching is not the best way. Perhaps your sensei has hit on something they have not. Either way it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things as long as you are happy in your training. Just don't call it traditional JSA when it is not.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#286027 - 09/18/06 10:20 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Marishiten

Something that strikes (yes that is a pun ) me as seriously wrong here is that bokken are "stand ins" for real blades.

So if your getting hit and brusied AT ALL--then your actually very DEAD.

Plus, bokken are extremely dangerous weapons--if all you getting is "various brisues and scratchs" then people are not hitting hard, or they are not hitting target.

Which again is questionable value.

Full power shots with bokken--sans armor should be breaking things---fingers, hands, wrists, collorbones, ribs, heads, etc.

If shots are being pulled or target limited for saftey, then your not "really" getting what you need here.

Something just does not fit here.


Edited by cxt (09/18/06 10:22 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286028 - 09/18/06 02:11 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
In fencing we use light canvas or nylon uniforms, they prevent cuts (and subsequent trips to the hospital for tetanus shots) and reduce bruising, but my arms and side get rather colorful at times.

However, it is the head I'm worried about. Fencing masks are there for a reason, and there have been deaths on strip even with them. Attacking someone without a mask on would be considered attempted murder. Automatic black card expelling you from the tournament and possible from the USFA/FIE.

However, there is really no advantage to getting hurt. If anyone remembers the "toy swords for toy swordsmen" discussion on Iaito a while back, we went over the problems with beginners using sharpened blades during Iaido practice. The final question that was never answered was very simple:

You are risking grevious harm to what advantage?

To be "hardcore"? This is to look cool, not be cool. Yes, you feel good from aching muscles and bruises. I admit, I do too; it feels nice to roll up my sleeve and say "Eric did this to me last week, but you should have seen Rachel's leg after I was done with her". However, like hitting a tree until your knuckles bleed, it does more harm than good. A dislocated knee can take you off fencing for a week. A broken hip can relegate you to wheelchair fencing FOR LIFE. That happened to my armorer years ago (though it was from a car accident), and though he was pretty good at wheelchair, I think he was never happy not being on strip. The same thing can happen with bokken.

To emphasize not getting hit? The problem (like with sport fencing) is that it makes you think that some hits are acceptable. If you block a blade but it comes in at a light thump, your mind views that as acceptable pain, but a sharpened blade would cut through your pecs or arm easily (I know one guy who severely cut his hand on one of his knives while reaching into the backseat for a Coke (yes, we called him an idiot for having an unsheathed knife in the backseat)). Any sort of contact can be fatal, so you need to avoid all of it.

I hope I made some good points. Talk to you later.


Edited by Benjamin1986 (09/18/06 02:50 PM)
_________________________
Fencing Club at UH

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#286029 - 09/19/06 06:09 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: splice]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Quote:


These are direct quotes. You did talk about legitimacy, and you even warned people about doubting it. That certainly counts as a mention. Not that I care, but if you're going to tell people not to doubt your teacher's legitimacy because he has great skill, and then saying you never mentionned anything about legitimacy in your next reply is pretty nonsensical.




I did not mention his legitimacy in my original post - the post determining WHAT I CAME HERE TO TALK ABOUT. Of course I mentioning his legitimacy in a post responding to your doubt legitimacy.

Quote:


Partly agree. It certainly doesn't imply that the technique is effective, no. However, legitimacy means proper technique. Not necessarily effective, but certainly proper and correct.




Yes, I agree too. But this has little to do with my claim that My sensei is legitimate - and if not 'legitimate' in the sense that you mean, then certainly VALID.

Quote:


Perhaps not to you, but you are not the center of the universe. To many people who practice Traditional Japanese Sword Arts, lineage and legitimacy are the very core of the art. After all, if you don't consider that relevant, what is? I'm reasonably certain you will never have a real swordfight, never kill anyone with a sword, and never use the techniques you learn in class. If the practical application is simply not there, and you decide to discard all the tradition that is the art, what are you left with? A dance.




Our classes are one of the most traditional I have seen or heard of. And yes, believe it or not I have used some of the techniques in real life. I don't only learn how to handle a sword, there are lots inherent little things you learn along the way.
Quote:


If you're not certain of your information, you really have no place to even speak about it. It's rather silly to withhold information, not even be sure about it, and yet insist that people should take the legitimacy of a teacher for granted. That's not the way it's done.




For the last time I DID NOT COME HERE TO TALK ABOUT HIS LEGITIMACY. It was brought up by someone else. How about you go read over my first post again and acquaint yourself with what I'm trying to say, and that is that many people these days are afraid of pain, to put it succinctly. Stop putting words into my mouth and then using them against me - you are not the centre of the universe either and are in no place to judge my school, sensei or myself.

Quote:

If he is not recognized officially, I am sorry but that's all there needs to be said about legitimacy. I'm sure he has nice friends and students and everything, but official recognition establishes legitimacy, not good feelings and opinions.




That's great and jolly but it doesn't change his validity. I suppose that's the word we should have been using. And it also does not make my school any less valid than another, nor any more courrpt.

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#286030 - 09/19/06 06:21 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Charles, surgery IS NOT a good analogy - and my sensei DOES have a liscence to teach MA. He just happens not to be of Japanese lineage. It's like saying that "Gee, you're not a [insert Western nationality] so therefore you are not adept at surgery".

I will call it traditional JSA because I believe it is and no one here will fully know that - no matter how much I explain - unless they attend the classes. Just because I mentioned that we eventually spar full force and that people learn faster by making mistakes and getting a few bruises DOES NOT maka the central focus of our training.

After WWII JSA was toned down a bit, especially in America. There are tons of traditional Japanese stories of senseis teaching their student 'the hard way'.

I don't mind a debate and I will not back down - I did come hee for one, as is evident by my first post. However in this first post I did not mention the legitimacy of my sensei - it was brought up by someone who believed that my sensei and style must be 'corrupt' because of how we do things. I DID NOT START THIS. And then I get bagged at for not providing information about something which I did not come here to debate in the first place. I came here to discuss the commercialisation and pacification of MA in general.

Half the time it seems as if you guys are fishing for debates that are not even there.

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#286031 - 09/19/06 06:28 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Benjamin and cxt. yes you guys did provide a few good points, which are actually ON TOPIC.
The reason there are "only cuts and bruises" is not because we do not go full force, it's because most of us have enough control by the time we're sparring full force to keep back when we realise that our opponent will not block properly.

Yes I realise that I would be dead - but potential cuts to the by the sword should not be ignored, they should be acknowledged. Eventually you stop getting hit at all because you have learned proper technique not to. How are you supposed to know how good you REALLY are without acknowledging your weaknesses and potential injuries that you could have received by a real sword.

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#286032 - 09/19/06 10:43 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Marishitan

If your "pulling" your strikes---then you are neither "really" learning nor are you "really" teaching.

Your learning how to "pull" your strike and the person your working with is learning that your going to "pull" your strikes.

Lethal habits when dealing with weapons.

Don't mean to be harsh--but that is the way it is.

Folks that actually killed people with weapons did not "spar" with them in order to build skills---they may have "sparred" at times--but they certainly did not use it in the modern sense of the word.

The folks that actually killed people used kata (two person) to train.

Look at it like this.

You know anyone that has been in a war?

What would be THIER reaction if you, having never fought in an actually war/firefight etc---if you told them that you "knew better" in how to train for a an actual battle and invented your own set of training and drills?

They would laugh you right out of the room.

Pretty much the same thing here.

Ignoreing the training methods of people that actually used the weapons to kill, the info people died to gain is not the best approach to take---in my opinion.

And to answer your question directly---since everyone is "pulling" their strikes and you KNOW that--you are NOT "really" getting a good indication of how good you are at all.

The mental/emotional stress do not exsist in a enviroement where people are "pulling" strikes so you "really" don't know how good you would be is those factors were added.

You "think" you are. But your not.

Both Eastern and Western sword experts have noted just how serious dangerous such assumptions can be.

Just an opinion--and worth every cent you paid for it--exactly nothing

BTW what Charles is getting at is that ones "feelings" about ones training are pretty irrelvent to the actual facts of the school.

Koryu are often actually "owned" by specifc people and specifc familes--if on is claiming to teach a given koryu then there are certian things that you need to have.

It would go a long way in answering some of the questions Charles and other have raise dif you could provide some basic info.

(Charles, PG Smith, Splice, Ben, have been around, they know what they are talking about---you may not agree with their postion--but you really should seriously listen to what they have to say)

What specific ryu is your teacher teaching?

With whom did he/she train with?

Just asking--please don't take offense.



Edited by cxt (09/19/06 11:02 AM)

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#286033 - 09/19/06 11:47 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

That's great and jolly but it doesn't change his validity. I suppose that's the word we should have been using. And it also does not make my school any less valid than another, nor any more courrpt.




If you have practical application and no connection to a tradition, what does 'valid' mean? 'Looks like he knows what he's doing'? 'I trust him, and so should you'? An art can be legit (connected to a living tradition), it can be effective (but we don't test that anymore), but what does 'valid' mean, exactly? Because without the art and the application, well, my neighbour swinging a wallhanger in his backyard can be 'valid'.

Quote:

I will call it traditional JSA because I believe it is and no one here will fully know that - no matter how much I explain - unless they attend the classes.




Then you have little knowledge of what traditional JSA are. We don't need to attend classes to establish whether a teacher is connected to a legit art, and whatever can be seen in class has little to do with whether or not the teacher is legitimately recognized by the proper authority to teach the art they claim to teach. You don't need to show up to class for that, and indeed, when talking about traditional arts, I believe that you should not show up to class unless you know exactly what it is.

Quote:

you are not the centre of the universe either and are in no place to judge my school, sensei or myself




I am not judging anything. Judging would be commenting on your sensei's skill, his character, your school's reputation, anything like that. Legitimacy is a fact. Whatever my opinion is, if your teacher has a signed menkyo from the soke of Tatsumi Ryu, then he is licensed to teach Tatsumi Ryu, end of story. Since there is no statement or information either way, there is no judgement, simply doubt. It would be easy to dispel, but if you're incapable or unwilling to do that, why continue replying? We won't just start believing you based on the strength of your conviction, you know.

And I might be wrong, but I would think perhaps there are some people here that know a lot about what traditional JSA are about. Especially when they've been involved with them for decades, in certain cases. Does your cup runneth over?

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#286034 - 09/19/06 05:45 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Marishiten,
Apparently it was my comments that got you all excited and upset here. You asked for opinions, and I simply gave you mine. My statement was very simple, and was not made to "caste doubt" on your beloved instructor. I was simply stating my personal opinions, since you asked for them ...
1) I don't see the value in what you are doing. It teaches how to whack at each other with sticks, not how to fight with swords.
2) Your instructor is not licensed to teach by a legitimate school of the Japanese sword arts. This is because there are no legitimate schools of the Japanese sword arts that allow their junior students to "spar" with bokken. Not one. All of the Japanese sword arts schools, except for kendo, utilize kata as their main training tool. All of them.
3) It's a terrible accident waiting to happen. A bokken that is swung the way a Japanese sword is used becomes a lethal weapon in its own right. You are either learning to cut incorrectly, or ... well ... you are learning to cut incorrectly.
4) You have no idea if what you are doing is effective or not. This is because the Japanese sword arts have been taught the same way for hundreds of years. The menjyo and methods are still in existence. When they formulated these methods, the participants still regularly used their swords to preserve their lives. If you change them now, you have absolutely no way of knowing whether what you are doing is effective for anything other than stick fighting.

These are my opinions. You asked for them originally, and it makes no difference to me at all whether you agree with them or not. However, I would advise you not to ask for other people's opinions, and then get all bent out of shape when they conflict with yours.
_________________________
Paul

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#286035 - 09/19/06 09:08 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: pgsmith]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
cxt, you have so many quotation marks around your words I'm not even sure anymore what you're getting at.

tha kata we do are NOT 2 person - they are one person. Basically, going through the motions on your own etc. That, on its own, is NOT going to teach you much skill when it comes to facing a real opponent. Sparring is there for timing, footwork, and improvisation - all of which are essential in a real battle if you live long enough to use them. Sparring has also made me understand the kata more, it makes it more concrete and shows me the application of it.

We don't 'invent' anything. I am not saying i 'know better'.
You know whose opinion should be heeded? Those who LIVED to gain, not those who died.

I know what I think - I think that I'd be getting a better indication of how good I am than someone who's afraid to get hurt, uses kata as a main mode of training, and if they spar, they do it lightly. "I'm sorry, but that's how it is". And yes I have as much right to say that as you have.

I don't care how much ANYone has been around. Have they BEEN in battles? I doubt it. So where have they 'been around'? Dojos? other schools? I will only listen to those people when they grow up and stop making assumptions based on a couple of my posts about my whole school.

But I'll answer these questions:

With whom did he/she train with?
I don't keep a list do I? This is not some obscure little school. It is a branch of a very well-known MA group. If you're in Australia, or even where you are, you might have heard of Peter Obrakar. I'm sure googling the name will give you some results. My sensei is friends and trains with him, and he himself is well established. Peter teaches Karate, my sensei teaches with him. My senseis sensei has recently died, he (my sensei) has trained in Japan and received gradings there.
What specific ryu is your teacher teaching?
I'll just write word-for-word what it says on my certificate:
Koryuu Bu-Jutsu, Batto-Jutsu, tatsumi ryu, Muso Shinden ryu iai-do. This is what I train in, but not everything he teaches. He HAS the liscence to teach these, as well as a handful of other MA.

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#286036 - 09/19/06 09:56 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: splice]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Quote:


If you have practical application and no connection to a tradition, what does 'valid' mean? 'Looks like he knows what he's doing'? 'I trust him, and so should you'? An art can be legit (connected to a living tradition), it can be effective (but we don't test that anymore), but what does 'valid' mean, exactly? Because without the art and the application, well, my neighbour swinging a wallhanger in his backyard can be 'valid'.




the mekyo, the credentials, his status as at least a 5th/6th dan (it could be higher i'll have to ask) make it valid. I will refer to my rebuttal analogy again: it's like being racist against someone performing a task that was originated by a specific nationality, and that person is not of that nationality. It does not make him any less adept, he has the credentials, the liscence - it's safe to say he has everything a 'legitimate' Japanese sensei has but the Japanese blood. When all's said and done, what difference does it make. Japanese are known for the racism, so it's little wonder that they base the legitimacy of senseis on their nationality. Which is fair enough, REALLY, but it does not make one Japanese sensei different from a Western sensei with the same experience and credentials.

Quote:

Then you have little knowledge of what traditional JSA are. We don't need to attend classes to establish whether a teacher is connected to a legit art, and whatever can be seen in class has little to do with whether or not the teacher is legitimately recognized by the proper authority to teach the art they claim to teach. You don't need to show up to class for that, and indeed, when talking about traditional arts, I believe that you should not show up to class unless you know exactly what it is.




No you don't need to show up to the class to establish where he's legitimate - and I've already made it clear that, no, in that sense, he is not, because he is not of Japanese lineage. As for the rest - yes you do. Becase you're taking MY word for it. You're taking MY wording and YOUR assumptions. I may give something accross innacurately without meaning to, you might understand it even MORE inaccurately. You have no evidence in your favour to establish whether or not it is a legit art. I am a 7th kyu and have only been doign this art for a year. I am doing my damnest to fend of a bunch of potential oldies with a world of booksmarts about MA. But when all is said and that, I think YOU'RE enlightment will come when you realise YOU don't know everything and that you are not the duck's nuts of MA. Look at it this way, my sensei would not sit here spending his time debating with a 20yr old MA beginner who's halfway accross the world about the legitimacy of her school.

Quote:

Legitimacy is a fact. Whatever my opinion is, if your teacher has a signed menkyo from the soke of Tatsumi Ryu, then he is licensed to teach Tatsumi Ryu, end of story.




Ok - end of story then. I have provided that information in my previous post! wow how easily matters are solved.

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#286037 - 09/19/06 10:14 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

It is a branch of a very well-known MA group.



That means absolutely nothing.
Quote:

If you're in Australia, or even where you are, you might have heard of Peter Obrakar. I'm sure googling the name will give you some results.



Not a single hit.
Quote:

My sensei is friends and trains with him, and he himself is well established. Peter teaches Karate, my sensei teaches with him. My senseis sensei has recently died, he (my sensei) has trained in Japan and received gradings there.



Again, teaching karate means absolutely nothing in regards to the Japanese sword.
Quote:

What specific ryu is your teacher teaching?
I'll just write word-for-word what it says on my certificate:
Koryuu Bu-Jutsu, Batto-Jutsu, tatsumi ryu, Muso Shinden ryu iai-do. This is what I train in, but not everything he teaches.



That's very interesting.

Koryu Bujutsu is a generic term meaning (roughly)"Classical Warrior Art", as is Batto Jutsu, which means "Sword Drawing Art" so those being on your certificate really mean nothing at all.

Tatsumi ryu is a koryu art that I have heard of. Liam Keeley is the only current menkyo kaiden in this art outside of Japan. Therefore, your instructor must either be Liam Keeley or an authorized study group of Liam Keeley's. Their main teaching tool is two person kata. You can see a bit of a write up on it at www.koryu.com I've not spoken with Mr. Keeley in quite some time, I hope he is doing well. It's kind of strange that the name would have been shortened on your certificate like that though. The official name of the school is Tatsumi Ryu Heiho, so that's what I figure would be on the certificate.

Muso Shinden ryu is a very wide spread koryu art. It is practiced exclusively through kata. At the higher levels there are two person kata, but it would take many years to get high enough to learn them.

Neither of the arts you mentioned contain free sparring by junior members.
_________________________
Paul

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#286038 - 09/19/06 11:10 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
mercierarmory Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska
Yeah, sorry. Peter Obrakar does not exist on Yahoo, Google, Ask etc. Does your school have a website so we can perhaps learn more about him instead of relying on what you post?

Mike

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#286039 - 09/19/06 11:48 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: pgsmith]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Quote:

Quote:

It is a branch of a very well-known MA group.



That means absolutely nothing.




yes, it means that he's less likely to be some unqualified dodgy instructor, and I have come accross those.

Quote:

Quote:

If you're in Australia, or even where you are, you might have heard of Peter Obrakar. I'm sure googling the name will give you some results.



Not a single hit.




Ok, I haven't googled it myself but I might take the time to scan a few articles etc.

Quote:

Quote:

My sensei is friends and trains with him, and he himself is well established. Peter teaches Karate, my sensei teaches with him. My senseis sensei has recently died, he (my sensei) has trained in Japan and received gradings there.



Again, teaching karate means absolutely nothing in regards to the Japanese sword.




Did I say it does? I was merely prviding more information on my sensei. If it has nothing to do with what people asked, well tough cookies. THIS WHOLE THING has nothing to do with what *I* asked.

Quote:


That's very interesting.

Koryu Bujutsu is a generic term meaning (roughly)"Classical Warrior Art", as is Batto Jutsu, which means "Sword Drawing Art" so those being on your certificate really mean nothing at all.

Tatsumi ryu is a koryu art that I have heard of. Liam Keeley is the only current menkyo kaiden in this art outside of Japan. Therefore, your instructor must either be Liam Keeley or an authorized study group of Liam Keeley's. Their main teaching tool is two person kata. You can see a bit of a write up on it at www.koryu.com I've not spoken with Mr. Keeley in quite some time, I hope he is doing well. It's kind of strange that the name would have been shortened on your certificate like that though. The official name of the school is Tatsumi Ryu Heiho, so that's what I figure would be on the certificate.

Muso Shinden ryu is a very wide spread koryu art. It is practiced exclusively through kata. At the higher levels there are two person kata, but it would take many years to get high enough to learn them.

Neither of the arts you mentioned contain free sparring by junior members.




Thank you for the lecture. Unfortunately, what a few people say on some forum ultimately means nothing to me. I practice what I practice, my sensei is qualified and certified, and that's all there is to it when it comes to proving my school's credibility.

What are YOUR qualifications in being able to tell me all this on a very personal level? (I consider my school my personal level) What are you? What are some of the reasons I should heed anything you say? You're extracting information from me but have not stated anything about yourselves.

Basically what you all are implying is that:
my kyu's mean nothing, my skill means nothing, my school means nothing, and all because my sensei means nothing. O well, that's your opinion, and your opinion means nothing to me.

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (09/20/06 06:07 PM)

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#286040 - 09/20/06 07:33 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

Basically what you all are implying is that:
my kyu's mean nothing, my skill means nothing, my school means nothing, and all because my sensei means nothing. O well, that's your opinion, and your opinion means nothing to me.




No, no one is implying that at all. It is simply that if you want to claim legitimacy, you should put up or shut up. You mentionned a menkyo that your sensei has. Who is it that signed that? That's all there is to it. A simple question with a simple answer. The person doesn't even have to be Japanese, I have no idea where you got that. But if the menkyo is for Tatsumi ryu, then it must come from someone authorized to teach it. Same for any other koryu. That's what 'licensed' means, and that's what legitimacy is about.

If you don't want to put up, and if our 'opinion' means so little to you, why are you still replying in this thread? Just go and practice already, and forget all about this message board filled with people who obviously know nothing about real traditional practice, eh?

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#286041 - 09/20/06 07:46 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: splice]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
I don't know, I DID say 'for the last time' before, but I'll say it again: i didn't come here to claim his legitimacy. You people claimed to see the proof of it.

How on arth should I know who signed his menkyo? The last time I saw it, was a year ago at his house. I know he has them, and I know they're 'legitimate' for the lack of a better less dreaded word.

Quote:

But if the menkyo is for Tatsumi ryu, then it must come from someone authorized to teach it. Same for any other koryu. That's what 'licensed' means, and that's what legitimacy is about.




gee and here i was thinking it had something to do with his lineage.
!!
You've just summed up what I have been trying to get accross to everyone all along. He is liscenced and authorised, and has been made so by someone liscenced and authorised. If you REALLY insist on knowing by WHOM then I MIGHT try and find out.

Well-founded opinions matter to me, yes. People's assumptions about something they don't fully know about (eg my school and sensei)that they CALL opinions don't matter to me. Why should it? Am I suddenly going to start doubting my sensei after all this time? No. He has built up much more loyalty in me than that, and if I was so easily swayed, THEN you people would have something to doubt.

I am here for that reason. If I had received crap about MYSELF I would have persisted less, and I'm very persistent n all fields. I don't back down that easily, even if I have no concrete information.

I have also not for a second thought that any of you knew nothing about MA. You seem like you know TONS. However, even in my life of 20 years I have learned that one is almost always erronous in assumptions made over the internet or on weak evidence in general.

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#286042 - 09/20/06 09:36 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

I don't know, I DID say 'for the last time' before, but I'll say it again: i didn't come here to claim his legitimacy.




Then stop replying to messages asking about those details.

Quote:

How on arth should I know who signed his menkyo?




Then you have no knowledge and no qualification to begin evaluating his legitimacy. All you have are feelings and opinions. I'm happy you like him and think he's on the level, but you have no idea where you fit in the greater scheme of things.

Quote:

He is liscenced and authorised, and has been made so by someone liscenced and authorised.




You have no idea who signed his menkyo. Don't try to claim that person is licensed if you have no clue who they even are. It's good that you found what you think you're looking for, but you won't convince us it's traditional because you say so, especially if you admit having no idea who your teacher's sensei even was.

Quote:

However, even in my life of 20 years I have learned that one is almost always erronous in assumptions made over the internet or on weak evidence in general.




The assumptions are on your side. You have no idea who taught your teacher, yet you insist he's legitimate. There's no way to even have an opinion about legitimacy unless you know where your lineage comes from. You won't say who's your sensei, and you don't know who taught him. That should end the discussion right there, I think, regardless of your opinion. There's no evidence either way, unless you provide it.

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#286043 - 09/20/06 11:12 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Marishitan

Sorry for the length here.


As you say "I'm not even sure what your getting at."

Then let me be VERY clear.

1-Koryu kata are normally 2 person sets--its VERY unusual to practice them JUST as solo forms.

Sure I may break out the various partner kata to practice solo when I'm alone--but that is so NOT how its actually trained in the dojo.

The fact that your "koryu" does NOT practice the normal 2 person training sets is a "red flag."

By itself--maybe pretty unimportant--but taken as a whole........

2-Free sparring, in the modern sense is equally unusal for koryu.
Sparring was simply not a method for passing down the essential lessons of the koryu arts.

Again, another "red flag."

3-I did not say that you "invented" anything, I was using that as an example of the situation we find ourselves in.
By which your defending practices that are simply not a central part of any koryu that I am aware of.

I certainly don't know even close to everything but I did not fall off the turnip truck just yesterday either.

4-You say YOURSELF that your "pulling" your blows---thus from where I sit, it looks to me as you were the one whom is "sparring lightly."

And YES, when it comes to bokken I AM "afraid to get hurt"--anyone who is not is simply not doing it correctly.
If your NOT afraid of the potentially lethal force generated by a properly used bokken---then your either lack the experience with them you claim, or your fooling yourself.

5- As you say "I don't care how much anyone has been around."

Really?

That is too bad for you, you have ready accsess to people from multiple schools/ryu, people that have tons of training and you CHOOSE not to "care" about it.

I might disagree with what people say---but I hope that I am never so arrogent as to "not care" when informed people take the time to offer suggestions and opinions.

6-People are "making assumptions" based on what YOU have told them.

If they are making inncorrect assumptions, then it would seem to be your doing.

Perhaps more in-depth information would help to clear things up--perhaps a web-site?

6-"Koryu Bu-jutsu" is not a "style." Bujutsu is an umbrella term that more or less refers to the entire scope of all Japanese koryu martial arts.

It would be pretty near impossible for one to be given a cetificate in "Koryu Bujutsu."

"Batto-jutsu" is also not a "style."

Look, nobody here is trying to hack you off or talk smack your training.

They are just expressing some deep misgivings about what you have shared about the training practices in your school.

They are the same misgivings you would "hear" if you posted the information on e-budo.com or swordforum.com or any other sites with trained koryu and sword and weapon folks.

Listen or don't--your choice.

But the bottom line here is that people are trying their level best to HELP you.

You may not think so, you may not agree.

But people really are trying to help you here.



Edited by cxt (09/20/06 02:23 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286044 - 09/20/06 04:17 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Marishiten,
You came here asking for opinions. When those opinions weren't what you wanted to hear, you started whining and complaining. You demanded clarification and, when people gave you their thoughts, you verbally spit on them, insulted them, and then told us all that you didn't care what anyone thought. You have proven yourself to be rude, thoughtless, uninformed, and lacking in any of the graces that study of a koryu bujutsu should install.

Whenever you are out in public, and the internet is extremely public, you are representing not only yourself, but your school and your sensei. Your actions and reactions here tell me all I need to know about them. I have no desire at all to know any more. I am also convinced that your instructor does NOT have authorization to teach Tatsumi ryu. I can't imagine Mr. Keeley authorizing someone to teach in this manner, or that would allow their students to be rude and obnoxious in public.

Good day to you Marishiten. May you always enjoy doing whatever it is that you do.
_________________________
Paul

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#286045 - 09/20/06 08:30 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

However, even in my life of 20 years I have learned that one is almost always erronous in assumptions made over the internet or on weak evidence in general.




That's exactly the principle which prompted us to ask for more information. Information which you have been unwilling, or unable to supply so far. I refer to the lack of information regarding who your sensei trained with, for how long, and what rank or license has he been granted by which authority. That information would provide some context in which to view the things you have said. This information should be common knowledge amoungst students at any given dojo.

All the students at the dojo I train at know that sensei spent the 80s training at the Yamashita dojo, that he is a nanadan kyoshi, and that his rank comes from the MJER Seitokai and is signed by Ikeda Takashi-soke. It shouldn't be difficult to spell out your lineage, because in koryu schools it's typically pretty simple. Sensei to student. It is not common for a sensei to have had all that many sensei. Sometimes sensei's can change due to death or retirement. In my case, my sensei, John Ray, trained under Yamashita-sensei who was a personal student of Fukui-soke. When Ray-sensei moved back to the states and founded the dojo I now train at, Kogushi-sensei became Ray-sensei's teacher. Kogushi-sensei was Yamashita-sensei's senior student and became sensei upon Yamashita-sensei's retirement. When Kogushi-sensei retired, Tanida-sensei inheritted the Chiba dojo and so we became his students.

I am interested to learn of your instructors ties to the Muso Shinden Ryu as it is a distant cousin of the art I practice. MSR is a very fractured organization. Do you know if he was associated with one of the ZNKR affiliated branches?

The things you say about the way you train and your insistence that it is legit, valid, and traditional in nature go against the grain. You will need to do more than say it is true if you wish to convince anyone that you are correct. It is the way of things online and stems from the same observation you made about the internet being unreliable.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#286046 - 09/21/06 01:29 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
cxt

I think we may have some differences in our terminology.
I refer “kata” to one-person activities, “in the air” as someone previous described it on this forum. (“Training is usually practiced in solo form (kata), but also has partner forms (kumetachi” http://home.stny.rr.com/iama/az.html ).

Then we have a “drill”, which is done with a partner. This implies the application of the kata. It’s there to practice timing, footwork, distancing, against a real person, to put things into perspective. This is rarely done full force/speed.

Then there are more complex drills like Migi. This incorporates several techniques, ie techniques from 3 different kata can be put together in a drill, and this drill is circular. We often start doing these stop-start, even our 3rd dan. Then gradually we speed up if we have the skill or ability. No one aimlessly bludgeons.

I don’t agree that “pulling” (and I’m assuming you mean “pulling back from hitting) detracts from the genuality (probably not a word but hey) of the attack. All of our higher grades are capable putting their all (speed, strength etc) into a cut and then either slowing down drastically or stopping when they predict that their opponent will not block successfully. I’m beginning to get to this stage too. We all know our limits however, and no one will do something they can’t, ie, I will not go full speed/force against a lower ranked student because I know that if they stuff up I might hit them.

“Free sparring” to me is Randori. An attack is made, and the opponent has to counter it. This is done stop-start almost right through to 3rd Kyu, or not even then if you haven’t got the skill. I associate the name Randori with RANDOM, and that’s basically what it is. I do it half-speed or ¾ speed at this stage, and Randori is a drill in which there are the LEAST cuts and bruises.

Now, getting to my original post, now that I have given some background information. Maybe I was wrong in implying that our STYLE is fully traditional. I’m yet to research that, but in this area our school is known for striving to be as genuine as possible. What IS traditional, is the STRATEGIES our sensei uses to teach. As a student teacher I can refer this to constructivism, ie, we learn through experience when ever we can. I have an example in which 7 months ago, for the life of me, I couldn’t do a proper Muko block. I was TOLD and explained about how to do it. But until I was put into the situation of someone actually making the cut, it was all pretty abstract to me. I did not even pick it up when a student just went through the motions of cutting and then stopped at my sword so that it LOOKED as if I had blocked properly. That didn’t teach me anything, that was like denial.

Then I was paired up with someone who actually made an ‘intentional’ cut. No only did I not block, but my knuckles didn’t appreciate it much. However, that experience taught me what I was doing wrong. And now, even though my Muko block is not exactly perfect, I can deflect the blade sufficiently without getting cut.

We sometimes learn the hard way, yes, and it’s through this that sometimes things get ‘rough’, but never are they malicious. So even if whatever style is taught is not done 100% as the Japanese did it way back when, our school still has elements of the traditional discipline methods. Here are a few excerpts to illustrate my point:

“The koryu (as we sometimes say for short), on the other hand, were primarily arts created by and for the warrior class of Japan's feudal period. A few traditions still exist that were actually used on the battlefields of pre-Tokugawa Japan, and in these systems effectiveness of the killing technique is still paramount.”

“For the most part, however, the techniques of the koryu still retain an element of danger; protective gear is typically not used. Safety is less important than efficacy; though wooden weapons are usually used in place of live steel blades, these can still do considerable damage if an error is made, and one learns to function out at the edge.”
http://www.koryu.com/koryu.html

“Our self-protection method is a very ancient Japanese discipline of warrior skills forged in a dangerous time when brutal assailants felt that no type of attack was out of the question. Therefore, we and our spiritual ancestors have had to emphasize a total system of self-protection without the rule limits of the newer sport and recreation martial arts.”

http://home.stny.rr.com/iama/az.html

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#286047 - 09/21/06 06:18 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
You don't get to define what 'traditional Japanese Sword Arts' means. It's not simply the way you are taught.

Koryu are defined by the connection to those who have gone before. If you have no idea who that is, you have no idea if what you're doing is koryu.

I like your quotes. Do you think they support your thinking that your school is traditional? How about this part that you didn't quote:

Quote:

Classical traditions (however you date them) do have several defining characteristics. They were developed by and for the bushi, or warrior class, and they have some sort of lineage that runs back through each headmaster or menkyo kaiden (or equivalent) to the founder of the tradition. This is the "stream" of the tradition; although there may be branches (in some traditions each generation was expected to found their own "sub-tradition"), in general the structure is one of a single "flow" from one (usually) head instructor through students to the next generation. The student-teacher relationship is central to transmission of techniques, and these techniques were initially designed to ensure victory on the battlefield. Systems that don't exhibit all these characteristics are quite likely not koryu.




Where does your flow come from? Who taught your sensei, and how is he connected to the head of the style? That's what we've been asking all along, and it's right there on the page you quoted to show how traditional you are.

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#286048 - 09/21/06 07:59 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: splice]
MattJ Offline
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Folks -

I think we are getting a bit off-topic here. Marishiten's original post was about training methodology. She was asking opinions on training with resistance and use of bokken doing so. If you wish to question her instructor's lineage, perhaps a thread should be started?
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#286049 - 09/21/06 08:41 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Quote:

I have been knocked on the head, I have had swollen knuckles, colourful bruises, but without them I would not have learned to make these blocks as effectively as I have. I have also become unbelievably conditioned to pain. It's strenghthened me internally, the person I am has become stronger, not just my body.

Does anyone have any similar opinions? Or does someone think differently? I'm interested to hear from other Martial Artists....





You couldn't know, but if you had asked this question outside of this particular subforum, perhaps in the Weapons forum, you might have gotten slightly different replies on the specific topic.

Personally, training with bo in my system (which is fundamentally different from a bokken/substitute for sword), 2 person bunkai/kata is about control. No one should be getting hurt. You can push yourself, and your partner for speed, accuracy and strength...but it is essentially a cooperative effort...not a punishing one. After all...we all have to go to work the next day...and I like my fingers.

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#286050 - 09/21/06 11:10 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: MattJ]
Charles Mahan Offline
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Matt,

I'm not sure I agree. Understanding her lineage and the ultimate source for her ideas helps to add perspective and context to the points she is trying to make about the topic at hand.

Ie. Training methodology is very much wrapped up in ryu-ha and lineage.
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#286051 - 09/21/06 11:15 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
It's pretty clear, that her 'lineage', obscure, legitimate or fake, allows for this training methodology. If you think that there can be no comparison within a limited sphere of 'approved' koryu...perhaps the thread should be moved?

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#286052 - 09/21/06 11:17 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Marshiten

The differences in terminology is one of the reasons I see "red flags" here.

Kata, in terms of japanese koryu, always refers to a two person exercise that involves all the major cuts, thrusts, parries, footwork etc that the ryu teachs.

It usually IS done at "full force and full speed"--more or less, depending on the skill level of the student.

Solo kata--is NOT really a part of most koryu--other than say iai practice.

And Randori or free-sparring is NOT part of koryu teaching either.

(there are some ryu that practice it--but the kata ALWAYS has central place--the sparring is NEVER the central lesson.
Mainly because the sparring ALWAYS has to be altered for safety sake--thus its understood that it is only "kinda" real and thus of quite limited value.)

So when you speak of your school being traditonal and a koryu, then you describe training that does not seem to be koryu, and you use terms that are not koryu terms--or define them differently than koryu arts do-- it makes people wonder.

Koryu don't generally use "kyu" "dan" ranks--koryu generally have no "ranks".
I "red flag" that as well.
Your generally either a student, an advanced student, somebody that knows all the teachings, or the teacher.
And there no are belt ranks to signify who is whom.

Another "red flag"--is the use of "koryu bujutsu" on the certs.
Since bujutsu refers collectivly to the entire body of classical japanese martial arts, its an odd thing to have on cert.

The concern here was that someone had sold you a bill of goods and tricked you about what you were doing.

NOBODY was trying to offend you---they were/are trying to help you.

We have all seen people tricked and fooled--and folks were trying to look out for you.

I could be totally wrong here---would not be the first time.

But there are a lot of "red flags" here in terms of koryu arts.


Edited by cxt (09/21/06 11:26 AM)
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#286053 - 09/21/06 11:20 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
MattJ Offline
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#286054 - 09/21/06 11:29 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: harlan]
Charles Mahan Offline
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Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
No, this is the Sword Arts forum. Not the koryu JSA forum. This is the proper location for the post.

The controversy(and the only controversy really) revolves around her assertion that this methodology of training is traditional JSA. It is certainly a methodology of training with a sword and thus the conversation should remain here. It's just not traditional or koryu in nature. It would seem that the original poster doesn't like hearing that from so many posters.

Beyond that there is an ongoing dialog regarding the utility of this particular training method and some of the standard arguments are being made on both for and against sparring. This dialog is perfectly legitimate in this thread. The original poster also asked for input on this very concept in the original post.


Edited by Charles Mahan (09/21/06 11:31 AM)
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#286055 - 09/21/06 02:07 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
Charles Mahan Offline
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Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Here's a good post on another forum that touches on the "free sparring" idea.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=422255#post422255
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#286056 - 09/21/06 07:45 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
splice, i did not reference those quotes because they had no relevance to the theme of my post. Thank you, but I have moved on. I have also not defined what traditional JSA is, if you could please find a quote where I have that would be appreciated.

Now, I also clearly stated in my last post that yes, MAYBE the style is not purely traditional. I understand people's arguments in this department. This can really be an ENDLESS debate, which it is proving to be.

Now about training METHADOLOGY. Are you trying to say here that every legitimate school’s sensei has exactly the same teaching-style/strategy, etc? And that these (which falls under methodology) are traditional? I very much doubt that. I am also under the impression that, if a sensei possesses a menkyo in whatever he teaches, he can teach in whatever the way he sees best. And my sensei has had experience with the more traditional teaching methods. And I am saying his METHODS are traditional, but whether the MA style is or not has been debated already and gotten nowhere, so I have gotten off that topic.

I am NOT claiming that the ryu style is fully traditional. I guess the fact that we have a somewhat mixed curriculum goes against that too. But it does not change the fact that the WAY he teaches is possibly traditional, or more so traditional than most school’s I’ve seen.

Cxt, I don’t see how differing terminology raises and red flags. I’ve clearly defined that partnered practices are not called kata, to me, and to the website I referred to. However, it’s not unusual that other school’s may have slight differences, you’ll find that this is the case in all fields.

Also worth mentioning (again) our mixed curriculum. We do a fair bit of iai practice, it’s scattered all through our training session. Ok, so Randori isn’t part of ryu practice. But we do it, because it helps us. We do Arnis, because it helps us with shortswords. We occasionally do some knife fighting. All of these strengthen skill faster and better than only doing that which is specific to a single ryu. So it’s not a traditional RYU, but no one can ever claim that 500 years or so ago the Japanese did not do any eclectic training. But it doesn’t matter, as I said, assuming that my sensei has the menkyo, he can teach what he wants. And I have seen them, Japanese instructors have come to visit the dojo, so has his sensei, who has recently died. I think someone mentioned a sensei that had died on this thread recently…might be worth looking into.

Cxt, if your concern is genuine, thank you. But I very much doubt I have been conned for a number of reasons and going into them would open up even more debate I guess. If myself and my fellow student have been conned, at least THEY would have found out, after about 7 years of training with our sensei.

If bujutsu refers collectively to the entire body of classical Japanese martial arts, then I don’t see what’s wrong with it being on my certificate.

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#286057 - 09/22/06 06:19 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
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Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
I won't reply any furhter than this since I don't see it being productive, but I'll at least try to explain one last time.

It's all about definitions. The term "traditional Japanese sword arts" refers to a very specific group of arts, at least to a great number of people in the JSA and peripherally involved with it. They are defined by their connection to the old traditions through lineage. Training methodology is just that, a training method, and has nothing to do with being traditional or not. You can train as traditionally as you like, if you are not connected to the art, then you are not practicing the art. It's the connection that is the root of all of it, not the techniques, not the training. The connection is the fundamental characteristic, and defines what comes after. It defines how you do your techniques. It defines how you train. Two groups connected to the same root may train differently, but they can both be traditional and legitimate if they've both been licensed by the soke and train according to his wishes.

You seem to be loosely defining and understanding some terms and throwing them around authoritatively. You say your style is traditional koryu, yet you don't know how you're connected to it beyond your teacher. You say you think kenjutsu means 'more violent kendo'.

If you think about it, do you know why you're practicing? Because that's the important thing. Koryu is meaningless if that's not what you're after. Iaido can be a good exercise, and it can be a social club for some. Some people might just want to swing a sword around and have fun with it. There's no point in insisting on koryu for things like that. Some people like a tussle and do 'pre-war kendo'-type things, some combine a number of styles together and [censored] around with that. IT'S ALL GOOD, AS LONG AS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE ABOUT.

The problem is, I don't think you know what you're about. Or if you are, you haven't done much research to ensure that what you're doing is in sync with what you want. If you want traditional training, then you want to know how you're connected to your style, not how skilled your sensei is in getting his students to pass ranks and how traditional his method might seem. Because there is no one traditional method, there are hundreds of traditions. The way you practice in a traditional way is being connected to one of those and doing what they do.

It doesn't mean you have to change what you're doing or that what you're doing is bad. But you really have to get a clearer idea as to what JSA are and how you are connected to them, otherwise you will throw around terms like koryu and kenjutsu without apparently understanding what they mean, and that doesn't help communication.

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#286058 - 09/22/06 06:42 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: splice]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Quote:

It's the connection that is the root of all of it, not the techniques, not the training.




Maybe, but all this lineage and connection business is largely politics.

Quote:

It defines how you do your techniques. It defines how you train. Two groups connected to the same root may train differently, but they can both be traditional and legitimate if they've both been licensed by the soke and train according to his wishes.




It doesn’t assure anything. It makes it more LIKELY to be correct, but not necessarily.
For now I’m assuming that my sensei is licensed because I have no reason to think otherwise. In that case, there should be no problem then.

Quote:

You seem to be loosely defining and understanding some terms and throwing them around authoritatively. You say your style is traditional koryu, yet you don't know how you're connected to it beyond your teacher. You say you think kenjutsu means 'more violent kendo'.




I’m not really defining anything. I have never said my style is traditional koryu, in fact I never even used the word koryu myself to begin with. I was talking about methodology.
As for my ‘definition’ of kenjutsu, for pete’s sake I thought the ‘definition’ itself would come across as not being ‘serious’. It is not a DEFINITION, it’s the way I THINK of it, it’s also called a sense of humour.

Most importantly of all, I am not doing this to swing a sword around or to socialize. If I was there to socialize I would have quit long ago, due to the fact that I’m the only girl there and the guys were very hard to ‘break into’, ie cold professionalism but nothing else. Things have changed now though because of my persistence.

But no, the reason I’m there is, simply put, because I love it. It has strengthened my weakest personal points and I feel better than I ever have in my life. I’ve gained confidence and it has developed my character. It has made me more appreciative of Japanese culture, the sword itself, and the capabilities of my own body and that of other people. There are so many integrated elements that are hard to put into words, but it’s amazing that something so seemingly straight-forward and physical could influence me on so many levels.

It’s true that I haven’t done much research – most of what I know I have picked up over time through training. Don’t get me wrong, I’m very interested to learn, but being a university student and living in Australia doesn’t exactly open up a lot of resources to learn from. I try to avoid talking about matters I know little about. You may think that I was throwing words like ‘koryu’ around because that’s the impression you got, which led you to debate my sensei’s lineage. That was never my intent however.

But to cap it all off, I have never done MA in my life up until a year ago. People have done it for much longer and still don’t know the difference between Karate and Tae Kwon Do, or worse still, between Karate or anything ELSE.

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#286059 - 09/22/06 09:11 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

I have never said my style is traditional koryu, in fact I never even used the word koryu myself to begin with.




God, you just don't stop. Again, a direct quote from you:

Quote:

I'll just write word-for-word what it says on my certificate:
Koryuu Bu-Jutsu, Batto-Jutsu, tatsumi ryu, Muso Shinden ryu iai-do. This is what I train in




There's no point in arguing with you. You say things, then you claim you didn't say them, then it's not what you meant, all a big pointless circle. You like what you do? Keep on doing it. Just don't expect to be taken seriously here when you speak about traditional training yet fail to verify the most basic facts about the authenticity of what you're doing.

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#286060 - 09/22/06 09:26 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
iaibear Offline
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Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
A few years back when I was still attending seminars regularly I was in Guelph, Ontario. They have a fine Iaido group which practices Muso Jikiden Iaido as an affiliate of Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei. They considered Muso Shinden to be koryu. Go figure.

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#286061 - 09/22/06 12:29 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Marshiten

"I don't see how differing termenology raises red flags."

Think of it like this.

Your looking to hire a plumber---you ask him to hand you an Allen Wrench--he looks at you blankly--you point to the wrench in question and he says "Oh, THAT --I call that a jifflin rod."

You DON"T hire people that have no clue what commonly used tools are called in their OWN profession.

I rock climb and I DON'T climb with people that don't know what I mean when I say "toss me a biner."

Most arts and hobbies--esp martial ones, have specific vocabulary and jargon.

If people are not using it correctly--if they have radically different definations of commonly used terms--it points to lack of experiecne and perhaps deeper errors.

In this case-- koryu seldom use any sort of solo kata--the way a karate-ka would.
In koryu "kata" means a two person exercise--period.
The mixing of "meanings" in the word implies lack of understanding as to koryu as a whole.

Oh, BTW--the "why" of having "koryu bujutsu" on your certs is that implies that you study ALL aspects of ALL classical japanese martial arts.
Legit folks are usually more accruate about what exactatly they teach--and what exactly the certs mean.
Again, taken by itself--maybe not such a big deal.
Taken in context however---its a "red flag."

Like many folks have said before---if what your describing is accurate--then there are some "red flags" here.

Instead of thinking of the excellent information and advice you have been getting as some sort of personal attacks---think of it as its meant.

Its meant to try and help you.

Its meant to get you to research more about your style.

Its meant to get you to do some hard thinking.

Bottom line here is that if you enjoy what you do--you should do it--I would.

But you should do so with a full and complete understanding that what your doing may-MAY, not be koryu at all.

Why call it something that its not?


Edited by cxt (09/22/06 12:36 PM)
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#286062 - 09/22/06 04:45 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

In this case-- koryu seldom use any sort of solo kata--the way a karate-ka would.
In koryu "kata" means a two person exercise--period.
The mixing of "meanings" in the word implies lack of understanding as to koryu as a whole.





With regards to the specific quote I highlighted... I think you are being a little too narrow there. The term kata is used to refer to solo exercises in many koryu. Especially in the iai ryu-ha. The branch of MJER that I study is considered koryu, and while the term waza is preferred, kata is frequently used to refer to the solo forms which make up the majority of the training exercises in the curriculum.
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#286063 - 09/22/06 05:10 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Charles

Maybe.

But in context with the discussion its more or less accurate.

While solo exercises may exist--the word "kata" in koryu speak is generally understood to refer to a 2 person exercise.
Which is in direct contrast to what "kata" is taken to mean in say karate--where it refers to a solo exercise.

This mix-up in terms is what I was trying to point out.

(In karate terms "bunkai" might-MIGHT come closer to the koryu meaning of kata.)

Besides I already dealt with and excepeted the iai-jutsu/do stuff.
Iai by its very nature leans rather heavily to solo practice.

I already established that.


Edited by cxt (09/22/06 05:11 PM)
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#286064 - 09/22/06 07:59 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
mercierarmory Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska
All I was asking for before, was a possible link to a website of the school. Even an article or some sort of web presence. Perhaps with a school website (full of information) it could clarify some of the questions we have.

Is there one?
Mike

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#286065 - 09/22/06 11:58 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Chris,

Since you don't approve of us using kata to refer to our solo exercises, what do you suppose we should begin calling our solo exercises then?

Are you perchance suggesting that MJER is not koryu? The official curriculum of MJER contains more than 40 odd solo forms frequently referred to as either kata or waza. So you must be suggesting that MJER is not koryu. We are not the only koryu ryu-ha that use the term in this fashion. I would not be at all suprised to find out that some of the koryu kenjutsu ryuha use the term when referring to solo forms as well.

Kata simply means prearranged training exercise. It does not imply a two person exercise.

I will agree that JSA kata are usually very different than karate kata though. Usually much much shorter. Probably a reflection of the idea that JSA fights are over VERY quickly.


Edited by Charles Mahan (09/22/06 11:59 PM)
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#286066 - 09/23/06 01:55 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
AndrewGreen Offline
shadow-lurker

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 170
Kata tanslates roughly to "form"

So any prearranged sequence which stresses "form" is "kata" in my understanding. Got nothing to do with how many people are involved.

As far as Japanese styles being shorter then Okinawan, while, right there I think is the difference. Not different ideas about the length of an encounter. They developed along two completely seperate paths, with karate forms being drawn from Chinese influences. Chinese weapons worms, and ryukyu kobudo forms are, oddly enough, structured more like karate forms then JSA forms.
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#286067 - 09/23/06 08:49 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: AndrewGreen]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Splice,

Quote:

God, you just don't stop. Again, a direct quote from you




I don’t stop? I never said I wasn’t posting anymore, you did. So… don’t post anymore.

I’ll try spelling it out:

I never used the word koryu until it was mentioned to me.
My quote that you used against me is off of my certificate. Obviously with all those styles listed, they are one of a number of styles we train in. I never said “We train in traditional koryu.” I do wish you would stop pulling irrelevant quotes out of your behind.

You say it’s pointless arguing with me. Well what point are you trying to achieve?
You TELL me I say things, you warp the situation around to suit you. You ask for my school’s credentials, you ask me to back my point up, yet you have done neither of those things. Telling me you’re experienced does not count.

cxt, I think the mixing of meanings is due to the fact that we don’t train in any one particular style. It does not imply lack of understanding. I asked my sensei what “kata” meant and he said, in simple terms it means form.

Also, “in the context of this discussion” cxt, what Charles said is NOT inaccurate.
I’ll back my sensei’s definition up:

“Kata (型 or 形) (literally: "form") is a Japanese word describing detailed patterns of movements practiced either solo or in pairs.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kata_(martial_arts)

“NOUN:
pl. kata or ka•tas
A system of basic body positioning and movement exercises, as in karate or judo.”
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/kata

“Etymology: Japanese, literally, model, pattern
: a set combination of positions and movements (as in karate) performed as an exercise”
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?kata

So, OK, In TRADITIONAL KORYU, “kata” is used to refer to partnered activity. I accept that, got no reason not to. However, saying that our use of the word “kata” for solo work raises red flags is inaccurate.

Quote:

Oh, BTW--the "why" of having "koryu bujutsu" on your certs is that implies that you study ALL aspects of ALL classical japanese martial arts.
Legit folks are usually more accruate about what exactatly they teach--and what exactly the certs mean.
Again, taken by itself--maybe not such a big deal.
Taken in context however---its a "red flag."




Yes we practice various styles, but again this does not make anyone illegitimate. That is absolutely no indication. Unless by “legitimate” you mean lineage, in which case he is not, but as far as credentials go, he is.

As for the website, yes there is one. I’ll have to hunt down the web address because I don’t know what to type in to get it to come up in a search result.

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#286068 - 09/23/06 09:54 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
mercierarmory Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska
you're truely more interested in arguing and bitching with people than answering a simple, honest question. I am losing more respect each posting.
All I wanted was a link to a website of your school or perhaps an article about your instructor, so atleast we might be able to read about the school from another perspective, but that just seems impossible to get.

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#286069 - 09/23/06 10:02 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: mercierarmory]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Quote:

you're truely more interested in arguing and bitching with people than answering a simple, honest question. I am losing more respect each posting.
All I wanted was a link to a website of your school or perhaps an article about your instructor, so atleast we might be able to read about the school from another perspective, but that just seems impossible to get.




Trust me, each time I come here to read some or other irrelevant response, the last thing I want to do is argue and bitch. But it happens because I don't ignore anything. Maybe I should. But I don't.

Apart from your question about the website, there has been NO simple and honest question. And I answered you as best as I could. There is a website, but I'm not sure of the address. I will make an effort to obtain it.

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#286070 - 09/23/06 11:28 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
I would suggest we let this thread die down until Marishiten finds out some more info. I can't see that there's really much left for anyone to say at this point.
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#286071 - 09/24/06 09:14 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
mercierarmory Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska
Thank you Marishiten, I appreciate it.

Mike

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#286072 - 09/24/06 10:45 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Charles

I think your takeing this the wrong way.

Let me just say that I am sorry for the confusion and I accept the blame for not being more clear.

I neither "approve" or disapprove" of how your particular group/og uses the term.

Just telling you how its generally used in koryu.

As I have said--multiple times now.

Iai-jutsu/iaido is a different animal altogather.

ANY ryu that uses iai will have solo kata.

(an obersvation I made BTW, well BEFORE you did in this discussion)

That does not change the fact that when koryu folks say "kata" they generally mean a 2 person exercise.

You seem to be takeing exception where no exception is either meant or warrented.

AGAIN, in context with THIS SPECIFIC DISCUSSION its a red flag.

OUT OF CONTEXT with this specific discussion---is NOT.

Ok??


Edited by cxt (09/24/06 11:06 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286073 - 09/24/06 10:56 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Marshhiten

Gotta tell you, this is one of those arguments where I really start getting annoyed.

When people start pulling out their dictionaries and argueing litteral translations as if they actually used them way in real life.

Sure "kata" means "form"--but that is not how its used in koryu--AS YOU YOURSELF STATE.

As YOU SAY--what you do is different and you--and I quote "get that."

Then there is no reason at all to spill all this electronic "ink" on definations.

Zero sum game.

What you do is different---Ok, fine by me.

My only concern is that you might have been sold a pig in a poke.

YOu don't think you have been, your happy with your training--you enjoy what you do--that should be enough.

Cool.

Just don't call it something that its not.


Edited by cxt (09/24/06 11:01 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286074 - 09/24/06 09:46 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:


Just telling you how its generally used in koryu.





Again. You are the very first person I have ever heard this idea from. That's why I challenged you on the point. You asserted that it is generally true that in koryu arts kata implies two man forms. The general term for that which I am familiar with is kumitachi.

This could be an issue of trying to generalize on a topic which does not generalize easily.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#286075 - 09/24/06 10:50 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Charles

I honestly have no interest in riding this verbal merry-go-round with you.

I have a great deal of respect for you and your opinion.

But I,m not going to keep having this particular discussion.

I USED AND KEEP USING the word "generally" precisely because it IS a "geneneraliztion."

Knowing that, I used the correct term--repeatedly.

Perhaps you would like to go back and count how many times I used "generally" or another such qualifier compared to how many times I was more concrete???????

All I can do is repeat 2 things.

1-When koryu folks talk about kata, they are generally talking about 2 person drills.

(Heres a thought--since YOU tend to use "kumitachi" then Marshiten use of the "kata" should have rung a bit off to your ears as well--as "kata" would just as foriegn in this context to YOU--as Marshitens use of the word sounded to ME.
From YOUR perspective, what Marshiten was describing as "kata" isn't YOUR term either )

2-The exception is iaijutsu/iaido. Which by its very nature demands such a practice.

AGAIN, and again, and again, if needed, the CONTEXT is critical.

In context with this discussion, its a red flag.

In other context--its not.

I don't know what you wish me to say, I don't know what you wish me to do.

I don't use terms inncorrectly and I don't make assertions I can't support.

You seem to be suggesting that I have done both--when I most certianly have not.

For what its worth--I have heard it called "kumitachi" as well.


Edited by cxt (09/24/06 10:59 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286076 - 09/24/06 11:12 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I am still at a loss as to where you have come by this concept that kata implies a two man form rather than a form in more general terms. Certail a kata could be a two man form, but not necessarily. As I have mentioned before, in 9 years of training in MJER, and in close to 6 years of reading and participating in the online JSA community, you are quite literally the very first person to ever make that assertion that I can recall. I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong mind. It wouldn't be the first time I thought I knew something only to turn out to be wrong.

To clear up one more thing, I think I was less than clear about the use of the term kumitachi. It is descriptive rather than the name of something. Ie. The first kata in Tachi Uchi no Kurai would be referred to as a kumitachi kata, or a kumitachi waza. It would not be referred to as a kumitachi. Ie, it's not really a noun. A two man kata is a kumitachi kata. A solo kata is not a kumitachi kata. Therefore the use of the term kata to describe solo forms does not necessarily raise a red flag in my mind.

I value your comments and opinions as well and know you would not intentionally misuse a term.


Edited by Charles Mahan (09/24/06 11:28 PM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#286077 - 09/25/06 12:26 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Geeees

Ok, cxt.

The word “kata” I have seen EVERYwhere defined as ‘form’ so I will use those references thank you. If my sensei is aware of what kata means and is qualified to teach, then he may damn well use the word kata.
As someone previously stated, I know 2 person flow drills as kumetachi.
Obviously, kata can mean 2 person drills too.
But it does NOT mean that there is a “red flag” because my sensei prefers to use “kata” when referring to solo practice.
May I also add that you do not fully understand the ‘context’ and therefore are in no place to judge on something so ambiguous.
Furthermore, the fact that “kata” is used GENERALLY for 2 person drills in koryu, does not make is EXCLUSIVELY.

Quote:

(Heres a thought--since YOU tend to use "kumitachi" then Marshiten use of the "kata" should have rung a bit off to your ears as well--as "kata" would just as foriegn in this context to YOU--as Marshitens use of the word sounded to ME.
From YOUR perspective, what Marshiten was describing as "kata" isn't YOUR term either )




I believe Charles refers 2-person drills to kumetachi – as I do. So your reasoning there is off.

Quote:

2-The exception is iaijutsu/iaido. Which by its very nature demands such a practice.




I mentioned this already, we DO elements iaijutsu/do.


I have looked this up repetitively and have found no evidence to support your claim of “kata” usage in koryu. If you could give me something to refer to it would be appreciated. Like you said, you don’t make assertions you can’t support.



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#286078 - 09/25/06 10:52 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Marshiten

You may have seen it defined that way in karate.

(odd that you missed it in so many different koryu material )

But its a red flag in context with the other odd goings-on with what you have posted about your school.

Not the first person here to point out how many times you have contridicted yourself in this discussion.

But lets deal with ANOTHER ONE.

You have NEVER called it "kumitachi" in this discussion--UNTIL CHARLES USED THE WORD.

Interesting timeing don't you think???

Given your above demonstrated propensity to co-op the terms of others.

I think I will pass on providing you with any additional proper terms---judgeing by the above little distortion, you'll probably just sorta "borrow" anything I feed you.

Like I said, don't know everything--but I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday.

I got into this discussion thinking I was helping you.

But given your flip-flopping and contridiction, I'm starting to get the distinct impression that your an active particpent in the odd going's on there.

I'm a bit slower on the up-take than the other folks who stopped interacting with you days ago--for pretty much the same reasons.

From this point foreward, my "help desk" line is closed to you.

Complaint line is still open of course.


Edited by cxt (09/25/06 02:52 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286079 - 09/27/06 01:14 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Excuse me, I’ve known about Kumetachi before I signed up here thank you. I’m not sure if I posted it in a post before or after Charles, but I did not SEE his post until after I posted. Just because I haven’t used the word on this forum doesn’t mean I wasn’t aware of it.

O, and…WHAT “odd” goings-on??? My sensei calling solo practice kata? Our more rough than usual training? Uh huh….

If you’re going to pass on providing evidence to back up your claim about “kata” – then I’m sorry but YOU’RE contradicting yourself, you who never say anything you can’t back up.

I would like to know where I have contradicted myself. And I want direct quotes, not assumptions. And if you can’t be bothered looking, well that’s not good enough. Don’t accuse if you can’t do it properly, don’t judge me to be an active participant in the odd goings on in the dojo (if there’s anything odd there, trust me, I’m the LEAST to blame hehe) and don’t assume you know the situation.

If the help desk is closed, fine – I never asked to be taken there. It’s been an invigorating and somewhat enlightening debate from which I’m walking away with MORE opinions, my old ones remaining unchanged.

Hey, maybe when I’m no longer a junior member I might be named the Resident Bitch. All cool with me.

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#286080 - 09/27/06 12:08 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Marshiten

Ok. "compliant" desk it is.

You ask me where you contridict yourself.

Ok.

You said on 9/25/06 12:26:

"I belive Charles refers to 2 person drills as kumetachi--as do I."

Yet on 9/27/06 01:14 Am

You say:

"I'm not sure if I posted it in a post before or after Charles, but I did not SEE it until after I posted."

If you "did not SEE it until after you posted" then how in the name of god (small "g" ) could you have ref DIRECTLY TO IT AND TO CHARLES BY NAME????????

Quite the trick to refer directly to a post you claim to have never seen.

We have a 6 PAGE discussion and the first time the word "kumitachi" comes out of your lips is right after Charles uses it?

As far as other "contridictions" go---several other folks have already pointed THOSE out as well.

I ONLY know what you tell me.
If what you tell me is wrong---then that is clearly not my fault.

You don't know whats "odd?"

Go back and look at 6 PAGES of people telling you in great detail EXACTLY what stikes them as off.

You don't wish to listen?

Fine.

But don't claim that people have NOT been very detailed and very through in providing the requested details.

You being a self admitted "newbie" I would have perhaps expected a bit more of an open mind----but as you say, your "opinions remain unchanged."

You ever here the saying "nobody knows more about karate than a green belt---just ask them."

Seems that its NOT just karate.


Edited by cxt (09/27/06 03:58 PM)

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#286081 - 09/28/06 03:37 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
I find it odd (and rather irrelevant) that you always edit your posts ... there is a little box you can tick taht makes it so it doesn't show as edited that's my tip of the day.

o...and:
post #15885007 by ME was
Quote:

I think we may have some differences in our terminology.
I refer “kata” to one-person activities, “in the air” as someone previous described it on this forum. (“Training is usually practiced in solo form (kata), but also has partner forms (kumetachi”




post #15886073 by CHARLES:
Quote:

That's why I challenged you on the point. You asserted that it is generally true that in koryu arts kata implies two man forms. The general term for that which I am familiar with is kumitachi.




and the quote you cited was AFTER this.

True I cited "kumitachi" from a site, because I assumed that's what people wanted, since my "knowledge" was not valid unless backed up.
But cxt, really, accusing someone of not knowing what a word was before someone else mentioned is a bit naive. Regardless of when I mentioned it, I still knew about it. Our sensei often uses both "flow drills" and "kumitachi" interchangably.

what others have pointed out as being contradictions has already been rebutted by me, so thank you for not bringing it up again

also, yeh you only know what I tell you. However it's wrong to assume that the speaker is always at fault when the listener doesn't understand.

anyway cxt this verbal tennis is rather exhausting

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#286082 - 09/28/06 10:51 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
This thread is degenerating into a he said she said match. It doesn't seem to be on topic at all anymore. I am loathe to lock threads unless they get really bad, but this one seems to be wandering off into pointless bickering.

CXT,

Neither you, nor anyone else on the thread is going to convince Marishiten any further than she has already been convinced. She now admits that what she trains in is not koryu and that it is instead a more modern style including some techniques the origin of which have not be determined to date.

Marishiten,
You also are not going to change any minds regarding what you do without providing more solid information. Nobody is gonna take your word for things. It's not personal. It's just the way of things online. Too many frauds running around. Too many with sincere students who try to protect them online. I'm not saying this is the situation you are in mind. I only bring it up as a way of explaining the general level skepticism you will encounter in various JSA forums. It's a sad situation, but a well founded one based on a great deal of past experience.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#286083 - 09/28/06 12:32 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Marshiten

I make changes, I want people to KNOW that I made changes.

Why would you wish to hide it?????

Unless your going back and makeing changes you hope no-one is going to see.

Sorry Charlie--that still does not explain how you managed to refer to a post you claim to have never seen.

Again, how can you refer directly to a post--by NAME that you claim to have never seen??
I mean you kinda have to have seen it to refer to it.

And nope--you have not "rebutted" anything, spurious excuses you HAVE made--but "rebutted"--not even close.

Oh, NOW its "our sensei uses flow drills and kumitachi interchangable."

Weird, maybe you can ahm....."borrow" some more of Charles terms--or perhaps "name drop" from other websites.

"Exhausting" yes I suppose it is.

Playing it fast and loose with the truth usually is more tiresome than just being honest for the get-go.

Requires A LOT more work--as you have so repeatadly demonstrated.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286084 - 09/28/06 01:09 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Ok. I'm locking this thread. I'm getting complaints about the bickering from other forum members. The thread ceased to be informative in any way some time ago and is now only sowing disharmony.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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