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#286066 - 09/23/06 01:55 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
AndrewGreen Offline
shadow-lurker

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 170
Kata tanslates roughly to "form"

So any prearranged sequence which stresses "form" is "kata" in my understanding. Got nothing to do with how many people are involved.

As far as Japanese styles being shorter then Okinawan, while, right there I think is the difference. Not different ideas about the length of an encounter. They developed along two completely seperate paths, with karate forms being drawn from Chinese influences. Chinese weapons worms, and ryukyu kobudo forms are, oddly enough, structured more like karate forms then JSA forms.
_________________________

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#286067 - 09/23/06 08:49 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: AndrewGreen]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Splice,

Quote:

God, you just don't stop. Again, a direct quote from you




I don’t stop? I never said I wasn’t posting anymore, you did. So… don’t post anymore.

I’ll try spelling it out:

I never used the word koryu until it was mentioned to me.
My quote that you used against me is off of my certificate. Obviously with all those styles listed, they are one of a number of styles we train in. I never said “We train in traditional koryu.” I do wish you would stop pulling irrelevant quotes out of your behind.

You say it’s pointless arguing with me. Well what point are you trying to achieve?
You TELL me I say things, you warp the situation around to suit you. You ask for my school’s credentials, you ask me to back my point up, yet you have done neither of those things. Telling me you’re experienced does not count.

cxt, I think the mixing of meanings is due to the fact that we don’t train in any one particular style. It does not imply lack of understanding. I asked my sensei what “kata” meant and he said, in simple terms it means form.

Also, “in the context of this discussion” cxt, what Charles said is NOT inaccurate.
I’ll back my sensei’s definition up:

“Kata (&#22411; or &#24418;) (literally: "form") is a Japanese word describing detailed patterns of movements practiced either solo or in pairs.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kata_(martial_arts)

“NOUN:
pl. kata or ka•tas
A system of basic body positioning and movement exercises, as in karate or judo.”
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/kata

“Etymology: Japanese, literally, model, pattern
: a set combination of positions and movements (as in karate) performed as an exercise”
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?kata

So, OK, In TRADITIONAL KORYU, “kata” is used to refer to partnered activity. I accept that, got no reason not to. However, saying that our use of the word “kata” for solo work raises red flags is inaccurate.

Quote:

Oh, BTW--the "why" of having "koryu bujutsu" on your certs is that implies that you study ALL aspects of ALL classical japanese martial arts.
Legit folks are usually more accruate about what exactatly they teach--and what exactly the certs mean.
Again, taken by itself--maybe not such a big deal.
Taken in context however---its a "red flag."




Yes we practice various styles, but again this does not make anyone illegitimate. That is absolutely no indication. Unless by “legitimate” you mean lineage, in which case he is not, but as far as credentials go, he is.

As for the website, yes there is one. I’ll have to hunt down the web address because I don’t know what to type in to get it to come up in a search result.

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#286068 - 09/23/06 09:54 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
mercierarmory Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska
you're truely more interested in arguing and bitching with people than answering a simple, honest question. I am losing more respect each posting.
All I wanted was a link to a website of your school or perhaps an article about your instructor, so atleast we might be able to read about the school from another perspective, but that just seems impossible to get.

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#286069 - 09/23/06 10:02 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: mercierarmory]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Quote:

you're truely more interested in arguing and bitching with people than answering a simple, honest question. I am losing more respect each posting.
All I wanted was a link to a website of your school or perhaps an article about your instructor, so atleast we might be able to read about the school from another perspective, but that just seems impossible to get.




Trust me, each time I come here to read some or other irrelevant response, the last thing I want to do is argue and bitch. But it happens because I don't ignore anything. Maybe I should. But I don't.

Apart from your question about the website, there has been NO simple and honest question. And I answered you as best as I could. There is a website, but I'm not sure of the address. I will make an effort to obtain it.

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#286070 - 09/23/06 11:28 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
I would suggest we let this thread die down until Marishiten finds out some more info. I can't see that there's really much left for anyone to say at this point.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#286071 - 09/24/06 09:14 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
mercierarmory Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska
Thank you Marishiten, I appreciate it.

Mike

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#286072 - 09/24/06 10:45 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Charles

I think your takeing this the wrong way.

Let me just say that I am sorry for the confusion and I accept the blame for not being more clear.

I neither "approve" or disapprove" of how your particular group/og uses the term.

Just telling you how its generally used in koryu.

As I have said--multiple times now.

Iai-jutsu/iaido is a different animal altogather.

ANY ryu that uses iai will have solo kata.

(an obersvation I made BTW, well BEFORE you did in this discussion)

That does not change the fact that when koryu folks say "kata" they generally mean a 2 person exercise.

You seem to be takeing exception where no exception is either meant or warrented.

AGAIN, in context with THIS SPECIFIC DISCUSSION its a red flag.

OUT OF CONTEXT with this specific discussion---is NOT.

Ok??


Edited by cxt (09/24/06 11:06 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286073 - 09/24/06 10:56 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Marshhiten

Gotta tell you, this is one of those arguments where I really start getting annoyed.

When people start pulling out their dictionaries and argueing litteral translations as if they actually used them way in real life.

Sure "kata" means "form"--but that is not how its used in koryu--AS YOU YOURSELF STATE.

As YOU SAY--what you do is different and you--and I quote "get that."

Then there is no reason at all to spill all this electronic "ink" on definations.

Zero sum game.

What you do is different---Ok, fine by me.

My only concern is that you might have been sold a pig in a poke.

YOu don't think you have been, your happy with your training--you enjoy what you do--that should be enough.

Cool.

Just don't call it something that its not.


Edited by cxt (09/24/06 11:01 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286074 - 09/24/06 09:46 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:


Just telling you how its generally used in koryu.





Again. You are the very first person I have ever heard this idea from. That's why I challenged you on the point. You asserted that it is generally true that in koryu arts kata implies two man forms. The general term for that which I am familiar with is kumitachi.

This could be an issue of trying to generalize on a topic which does not generalize easily.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#286075 - 09/24/06 10:50 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Charles Mahan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Charles

I honestly have no interest in riding this verbal merry-go-round with you.

I have a great deal of respect for you and your opinion.

But I,m not going to keep having this particular discussion.

I USED AND KEEP USING the word "generally" precisely because it IS a "geneneraliztion."

Knowing that, I used the correct term--repeatedly.

Perhaps you would like to go back and count how many times I used "generally" or another such qualifier compared to how many times I was more concrete???????

All I can do is repeat 2 things.

1-When koryu folks talk about kata, they are generally talking about 2 person drills.

(Heres a thought--since YOU tend to use "kumitachi" then Marshiten use of the "kata" should have rung a bit off to your ears as well--as "kata" would just as foriegn in this context to YOU--as Marshitens use of the word sounded to ME.
From YOUR perspective, what Marshiten was describing as "kata" isn't YOUR term either )

2-The exception is iaijutsu/iaido. Which by its very nature demands such a practice.

AGAIN, and again, and again, if needed, the CONTEXT is critical.

In context with this discussion, its a red flag.

In other context--its not.

I don't know what you wish me to say, I don't know what you wish me to do.

I don't use terms inncorrectly and I don't make assertions I can't support.

You seem to be suggesting that I have done both--when I most certianly have not.

For what its worth--I have heard it called "kumitachi" as well.


Edited by cxt (09/24/06 10:59 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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