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#286036 - 09/19/06 09:56 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: splice]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Quote:


If you have practical application and no connection to a tradition, what does 'valid' mean? 'Looks like he knows what he's doing'? 'I trust him, and so should you'? An art can be legit (connected to a living tradition), it can be effective (but we don't test that anymore), but what does 'valid' mean, exactly? Because without the art and the application, well, my neighbour swinging a wallhanger in his backyard can be 'valid'.




the mekyo, the credentials, his status as at least a 5th/6th dan (it could be higher i'll have to ask) make it valid. I will refer to my rebuttal analogy again: it's like being racist against someone performing a task that was originated by a specific nationality, and that person is not of that nationality. It does not make him any less adept, he has the credentials, the liscence - it's safe to say he has everything a 'legitimate' Japanese sensei has but the Japanese blood. When all's said and done, what difference does it make. Japanese are known for the racism, so it's little wonder that they base the legitimacy of senseis on their nationality. Which is fair enough, REALLY, but it does not make one Japanese sensei different from a Western sensei with the same experience and credentials.

Quote:

Then you have little knowledge of what traditional JSA are. We don't need to attend classes to establish whether a teacher is connected to a legit art, and whatever can be seen in class has little to do with whether or not the teacher is legitimately recognized by the proper authority to teach the art they claim to teach. You don't need to show up to class for that, and indeed, when talking about traditional arts, I believe that you should not show up to class unless you know exactly what it is.




No you don't need to show up to the class to establish where he's legitimate - and I've already made it clear that, no, in that sense, he is not, because he is not of Japanese lineage. As for the rest - yes you do. Becase you're taking MY word for it. You're taking MY wording and YOUR assumptions. I may give something accross innacurately without meaning to, you might understand it even MORE inaccurately. You have no evidence in your favour to establish whether or not it is a legit art. I am a 7th kyu and have only been doign this art for a year. I am doing my damnest to fend of a bunch of potential oldies with a world of booksmarts about MA. But when all is said and that, I think YOU'RE enlightment will come when you realise YOU don't know everything and that you are not the duck's nuts of MA. Look at it this way, my sensei would not sit here spending his time debating with a 20yr old MA beginner who's halfway accross the world about the legitimacy of her school.

Quote:

Legitimacy is a fact. Whatever my opinion is, if your teacher has a signed menkyo from the soke of Tatsumi Ryu, then he is licensed to teach Tatsumi Ryu, end of story.




Ok - end of story then. I have provided that information in my previous post! wow how easily matters are solved.

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#286037 - 09/19/06 10:14 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

It is a branch of a very well-known MA group.



That means absolutely nothing.
Quote:

If you're in Australia, or even where you are, you might have heard of Peter Obrakar. I'm sure googling the name will give you some results.



Not a single hit.
Quote:

My sensei is friends and trains with him, and he himself is well established. Peter teaches Karate, my sensei teaches with him. My senseis sensei has recently died, he (my sensei) has trained in Japan and received gradings there.



Again, teaching karate means absolutely nothing in regards to the Japanese sword.
Quote:

What specific ryu is your teacher teaching?
I'll just write word-for-word what it says on my certificate:
Koryuu Bu-Jutsu, Batto-Jutsu, tatsumi ryu, Muso Shinden ryu iai-do. This is what I train in, but not everything he teaches.



That's very interesting.

Koryu Bujutsu is a generic term meaning (roughly)"Classical Warrior Art", as is Batto Jutsu, which means "Sword Drawing Art" so those being on your certificate really mean nothing at all.

Tatsumi ryu is a koryu art that I have heard of. Liam Keeley is the only current menkyo kaiden in this art outside of Japan. Therefore, your instructor must either be Liam Keeley or an authorized study group of Liam Keeley's. Their main teaching tool is two person kata. You can see a bit of a write up on it at www.koryu.com I've not spoken with Mr. Keeley in quite some time, I hope he is doing well. It's kind of strange that the name would have been shortened on your certificate like that though. The official name of the school is Tatsumi Ryu Heiho, so that's what I figure would be on the certificate.

Muso Shinden ryu is a very wide spread koryu art. It is practiced exclusively through kata. At the higher levels there are two person kata, but it would take many years to get high enough to learn them.

Neither of the arts you mentioned contain free sparring by junior members.
_________________________
Paul

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#286038 - 09/19/06 11:10 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
mercierarmory Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska
Yeah, sorry. Peter Obrakar does not exist on Yahoo, Google, Ask etc. Does your school have a website so we can perhaps learn more about him instead of relying on what you post?

Mike

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#286039 - 09/19/06 11:48 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: pgsmith]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Quote:

Quote:

It is a branch of a very well-known MA group.



That means absolutely nothing.




yes, it means that he's less likely to be some unqualified dodgy instructor, and I have come accross those.

Quote:

Quote:

If you're in Australia, or even where you are, you might have heard of Peter Obrakar. I'm sure googling the name will give you some results.



Not a single hit.




Ok, I haven't googled it myself but I might take the time to scan a few articles etc.

Quote:

Quote:

My sensei is friends and trains with him, and he himself is well established. Peter teaches Karate, my sensei teaches with him. My senseis sensei has recently died, he (my sensei) has trained in Japan and received gradings there.



Again, teaching karate means absolutely nothing in regards to the Japanese sword.




Did I say it does? I was merely prviding more information on my sensei. If it has nothing to do with what people asked, well tough cookies. THIS WHOLE THING has nothing to do with what *I* asked.

Quote:


That's very interesting.

Koryu Bujutsu is a generic term meaning (roughly)"Classical Warrior Art", as is Batto Jutsu, which means "Sword Drawing Art" so those being on your certificate really mean nothing at all.

Tatsumi ryu is a koryu art that I have heard of. Liam Keeley is the only current menkyo kaiden in this art outside of Japan. Therefore, your instructor must either be Liam Keeley or an authorized study group of Liam Keeley's. Their main teaching tool is two person kata. You can see a bit of a write up on it at www.koryu.com I've not spoken with Mr. Keeley in quite some time, I hope he is doing well. It's kind of strange that the name would have been shortened on your certificate like that though. The official name of the school is Tatsumi Ryu Heiho, so that's what I figure would be on the certificate.

Muso Shinden ryu is a very wide spread koryu art. It is practiced exclusively through kata. At the higher levels there are two person kata, but it would take many years to get high enough to learn them.

Neither of the arts you mentioned contain free sparring by junior members.




Thank you for the lecture. Unfortunately, what a few people say on some forum ultimately means nothing to me. I practice what I practice, my sensei is qualified and certified, and that's all there is to it when it comes to proving my school's credibility.

What are YOUR qualifications in being able to tell me all this on a very personal level? (I consider my school my personal level) What are you? What are some of the reasons I should heed anything you say? You're extracting information from me but have not stated anything about yourselves.

Basically what you all are implying is that:
my kyu's mean nothing, my skill means nothing, my school means nothing, and all because my sensei means nothing. O well, that's your opinion, and your opinion means nothing to me.

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (09/20/06 06:07 PM)

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#286040 - 09/20/06 07:33 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

Basically what you all are implying is that:
my kyu's mean nothing, my skill means nothing, my school means nothing, and all because my sensei means nothing. O well, that's your opinion, and your opinion means nothing to me.




No, no one is implying that at all. It is simply that if you want to claim legitimacy, you should put up or shut up. You mentionned a menkyo that your sensei has. Who is it that signed that? That's all there is to it. A simple question with a simple answer. The person doesn't even have to be Japanese, I have no idea where you got that. But if the menkyo is for Tatsumi ryu, then it must come from someone authorized to teach it. Same for any other koryu. That's what 'licensed' means, and that's what legitimacy is about.

If you don't want to put up, and if our 'opinion' means so little to you, why are you still replying in this thread? Just go and practice already, and forget all about this message board filled with people who obviously know nothing about real traditional practice, eh?

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#286041 - 09/20/06 07:46 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: splice]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
I don't know, I DID say 'for the last time' before, but I'll say it again: i didn't come here to claim his legitimacy. You people claimed to see the proof of it.

How on arth should I know who signed his menkyo? The last time I saw it, was a year ago at his house. I know he has them, and I know they're 'legitimate' for the lack of a better less dreaded word.

Quote:

But if the menkyo is for Tatsumi ryu, then it must come from someone authorized to teach it. Same for any other koryu. That's what 'licensed' means, and that's what legitimacy is about.




gee and here i was thinking it had something to do with his lineage.
!!
You've just summed up what I have been trying to get accross to everyone all along. He is liscenced and authorised, and has been made so by someone liscenced and authorised. If you REALLY insist on knowing by WHOM then I MIGHT try and find out.

Well-founded opinions matter to me, yes. People's assumptions about something they don't fully know about (eg my school and sensei)that they CALL opinions don't matter to me. Why should it? Am I suddenly going to start doubting my sensei after all this time? No. He has built up much more loyalty in me than that, and if I was so easily swayed, THEN you people would have something to doubt.

I am here for that reason. If I had received crap about MYSELF I would have persisted less, and I'm very persistent n all fields. I don't back down that easily, even if I have no concrete information.

I have also not for a second thought that any of you knew nothing about MA. You seem like you know TONS. However, even in my life of 20 years I have learned that one is almost always erronous in assumptions made over the internet or on weak evidence in general.

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#286042 - 09/20/06 09:36 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

I don't know, I DID say 'for the last time' before, but I'll say it again: i didn't come here to claim his legitimacy.




Then stop replying to messages asking about those details.

Quote:

How on arth should I know who signed his menkyo?




Then you have no knowledge and no qualification to begin evaluating his legitimacy. All you have are feelings and opinions. I'm happy you like him and think he's on the level, but you have no idea where you fit in the greater scheme of things.

Quote:

He is liscenced and authorised, and has been made so by someone liscenced and authorised.




You have no idea who signed his menkyo. Don't try to claim that person is licensed if you have no clue who they even are. It's good that you found what you think you're looking for, but you won't convince us it's traditional because you say so, especially if you admit having no idea who your teacher's sensei even was.

Quote:

However, even in my life of 20 years I have learned that one is almost always erronous in assumptions made over the internet or on weak evidence in general.




The assumptions are on your side. You have no idea who taught your teacher, yet you insist he's legitimate. There's no way to even have an opinion about legitimacy unless you know where your lineage comes from. You won't say who's your sensei, and you don't know who taught him. That should end the discussion right there, I think, regardless of your opinion. There's no evidence either way, unless you provide it.

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#286043 - 09/20/06 11:12 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Marishitan

Sorry for the length here.


As you say "I'm not even sure what your getting at."

Then let me be VERY clear.

1-Koryu kata are normally 2 person sets--its VERY unusual to practice them JUST as solo forms.

Sure I may break out the various partner kata to practice solo when I'm alone--but that is so NOT how its actually trained in the dojo.

The fact that your "koryu" does NOT practice the normal 2 person training sets is a "red flag."

By itself--maybe pretty unimportant--but taken as a whole........

2-Free sparring, in the modern sense is equally unusal for koryu.
Sparring was simply not a method for passing down the essential lessons of the koryu arts.

Again, another "red flag."

3-I did not say that you "invented" anything, I was using that as an example of the situation we find ourselves in.
By which your defending practices that are simply not a central part of any koryu that I am aware of.

I certainly don't know even close to everything but I did not fall off the turnip truck just yesterday either.

4-You say YOURSELF that your "pulling" your blows---thus from where I sit, it looks to me as you were the one whom is "sparring lightly."

And YES, when it comes to bokken I AM "afraid to get hurt"--anyone who is not is simply not doing it correctly.
If your NOT afraid of the potentially lethal force generated by a properly used bokken---then your either lack the experience with them you claim, or your fooling yourself.

5- As you say "I don't care how much anyone has been around."

Really?

That is too bad for you, you have ready accsess to people from multiple schools/ryu, people that have tons of training and you CHOOSE not to "care" about it.

I might disagree with what people say---but I hope that I am never so arrogent as to "not care" when informed people take the time to offer suggestions and opinions.

6-People are "making assumptions" based on what YOU have told them.

If they are making inncorrect assumptions, then it would seem to be your doing.

Perhaps more in-depth information would help to clear things up--perhaps a web-site?

6-"Koryu Bu-jutsu" is not a "style." Bujutsu is an umbrella term that more or less refers to the entire scope of all Japanese koryu martial arts.

It would be pretty near impossible for one to be given a cetificate in "Koryu Bujutsu."

"Batto-jutsu" is also not a "style."

Look, nobody here is trying to hack you off or talk smack your training.

They are just expressing some deep misgivings about what you have shared about the training practices in your school.

They are the same misgivings you would "hear" if you posted the information on e-budo.com or swordforum.com or any other sites with trained koryu and sword and weapon folks.

Listen or don't--your choice.

But the bottom line here is that people are trying their level best to HELP you.

You may not think so, you may not agree.

But people really are trying to help you here.



Edited by cxt (09/20/06 02:23 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#286044 - 09/20/06 04:17 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Marishiten,
You came here asking for opinions. When those opinions weren't what you wanted to hear, you started whining and complaining. You demanded clarification and, when people gave you their thoughts, you verbally spit on them, insulted them, and then told us all that you didn't care what anyone thought. You have proven yourself to be rude, thoughtless, uninformed, and lacking in any of the graces that study of a koryu bujutsu should install.

Whenever you are out in public, and the internet is extremely public, you are representing not only yourself, but your school and your sensei. Your actions and reactions here tell me all I need to know about them. I have no desire at all to know any more. I am also convinced that your instructor does NOT have authorization to teach Tatsumi ryu. I can't imagine Mr. Keeley authorizing someone to teach in this manner, or that would allow their students to be rude and obnoxious in public.

Good day to you Marishiten. May you always enjoy doing whatever it is that you do.
_________________________
Paul

Top
#286045 - 09/20/06 08:30 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

However, even in my life of 20 years I have learned that one is almost always erronous in assumptions made over the internet or on weak evidence in general.




That's exactly the principle which prompted us to ask for more information. Information which you have been unwilling, or unable to supply so far. I refer to the lack of information regarding who your sensei trained with, for how long, and what rank or license has he been granted by which authority. That information would provide some context in which to view the things you have said. This information should be common knowledge amoungst students at any given dojo.

All the students at the dojo I train at know that sensei spent the 80s training at the Yamashita dojo, that he is a nanadan kyoshi, and that his rank comes from the MJER Seitokai and is signed by Ikeda Takashi-soke. It shouldn't be difficult to spell out your lineage, because in koryu schools it's typically pretty simple. Sensei to student. It is not common for a sensei to have had all that many sensei. Sometimes sensei's can change due to death or retirement. In my case, my sensei, John Ray, trained under Yamashita-sensei who was a personal student of Fukui-soke. When Ray-sensei moved back to the states and founded the dojo I now train at, Kogushi-sensei became Ray-sensei's teacher. Kogushi-sensei was Yamashita-sensei's senior student and became sensei upon Yamashita-sensei's retirement. When Kogushi-sensei retired, Tanida-sensei inheritted the Chiba dojo and so we became his students.

I am interested to learn of your instructors ties to the Muso Shinden Ryu as it is a distant cousin of the art I practice. MSR is a very fractured organization. Do you know if he was associated with one of the ZNKR affiliated branches?

The things you say about the way you train and your insistence that it is legit, valid, and traditional in nature go against the grain. You will need to do more than say it is true if you wish to convince anyone that you are correct. It is the way of things online and stems from the same observation you made about the internet being unreliable.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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