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#286016 - 09/17/06 04:03 AM No Pain no Gain
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
Hello all, I just joined.
I practice Kryu Bu Jutsu and Batto-jutsu with elements of Tatsumi ryu, Muso Shinden ryu, with monthly Kenjutsu, even some Arnis, etc.

When I recently went to visit another Dojo with a man I met who taught AikiJutsu but was also versed in the sword arts, he was amazed that we wore no armour (except for Kenjutsu) and sparred heavily with ironwood bokkens.

So many people I have met are against any sort of pain and discomfort while practicing something they're paying for. I think the Martial Arts has become so commercialised that people are viewing themselves as clients of their sensei, so why get cuts and bruises?

I used a foam 'bokken' in this other dojo so I wouldn't get hurt. I was told to take it easy while grappling and locking. I received pitying glances when I showed my various bruises and scratches.

What these people don't understand is that within the 1 year (yes i'm still new at this!) of training in my dojo with my sensei I have become to view my cuts and bruises as a learning experience, like a map of my journey on my body, to put it sentimentally.

I have been knocked on the head, I have had swollen knuckles, colourful bruises, but without them I would not have learned to make these blocks as effectively as I have. I have also become unbelievably conditioned to pain. It's strenghthened me internally, the person I am has become stronger, not just my body.

Does anyone have any similar opinions? Or does someone think differently? I'm interested to hear from other Martial Artists....

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#286017 - 09/17/06 05:20 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
hey man, no pain no gain is my motto when im using my damn hardwood nunchucks. In fact im writing this with a black eye
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#286018 - 09/17/06 08:53 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: crablord]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
it's kind of amusing that you're callin me 'man'. I'm female, but am known as the honourary male in the dojo! I'm the only girl and am often grouped in with the 'boys'. I don't get any special treatment but being female does sometimes have its advantages. You could say I get the best of both worlds.

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#286019 - 09/17/06 09:26 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
The way you are being trained is not particularly Japanese. It is unnecessarily dangerous. If you are careful enough with your cuts that you will not severely injure your opponent, then you are doing the techniques in a corruptive manner. If you do them with the intent of killing your opponent as you should, then seirous injury will result.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#286020 - 09/17/06 10:27 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

Does anyone have any similar opinions? Or does someone think differently? I'm interested to hear from other Martial Artists....



Okee dokee ... As far as the sword arts are concerned, I see absolutely no real value in what you are doing. It seems to me that if this method of training was truly effective for learning the Japanese sword arts, then those that used to have to depend upon the arts to preserve their lives would have trained in this fashion. This is not the case. Every koryu, without exception, trains utilizing solo and paired kata as the primary training tools.

Because of the fact that your school does NOT do this, I believe it is safe to say that your instructor did not earn a teaching license from a legitimate school of the Japanese sword. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

My personal opinion is that allowing junior members such as yourself to whack at each other with bokken is simply a terrible tragedy waiting to happen.

Quote:

I think the Martial Arts has become so commercialised that people are viewing themselves as clients of their sensei, so why get cuts and bruises?



Perhaps it is more along the lines of "This is how the art has been taught for several hundred years. Why would I think that I could possibly know more about it than those who used to actually have to depend upon it for survival?"
_________________________
Paul

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#286021 - 09/17/06 11:07 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
mercierarmory Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska
I agree with you but not if the fighter is newer (less than a couple years of training). I get my fair share of cuts and bruises, as well as a couple broken fingers. I fight medieval longsword and we use both the wooden training sword as well as rebated steel. The only time I wear armour is when I am doing demos for things like schools or renaissance faires and the rest of the time I am wearing either just a t-shirt or a lightly padded jacket.

Now granted, we dont go full speed on eachother when not wearing armour, but even a 1/2 to 3/4 speed hit to the hip bone (like I did last thursday) will cut you open and leave you limping for a couple days.

I believe in the "no pain no gain" approach to an extent. If I get hit somewhere, and it hurts, perhaps I should learn not to get hit there again. However, as I said at the beginning of this rant, this approach is highly inappropriate for any new student that is probably not comfortable around the weapon as much as someone with say 5 years is. Every student of the sword arts is different, but finding that comfortable buffer zone for that approach, as to what is too much, is vital. Also, as an instructor, I have never once mentioned to one of my students to do this. If they take that path on their own, so be it. I have found it to be very effective, and if it improves their training as well, I'm happy.

Mike

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#286022 - 09/17/06 08:25 PM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: mercierarmory]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
I don't know how anyone can judge that the way I train isn't particularly Japanese based on one of my posts. We're very traditional actually. Do you think that the Japanese trained with armour and foam bokkens? No. They used the wooden bokkens and trained in gi and hakama at the MOST.

We have had no INJURIES per se. Beginners spar stop-start, then lightly, the full speed/force if they are capable. I'm 7th kyu, should be graded 6th soon, and I'm capable of spalling full force but not full speed yet. I can block those cuts very effectively. You know why? Because I know that if I don't I run the possibility of getting hit. Sure my partner is probably able to stop a milimetre away from me if i don't, but do I want to risk that? And I suppose I should add that only the higher grades go full speed and force during RANDORE ... everything I go full speed/force in are drills i know the movementes to, such as Migi.

So keeping this in mind; the fact that what we're doing is 'dangerous' and the fact that my sensei was practically called illigitemate ... well I'm sorry but it takes great skill to get his students where they are, to a point where they're being as realistic as possible without injury, and it's something you won't be lucky enough to witness. Don't doubt his legitimacy - it's laughable.

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#286023 - 09/18/06 08:09 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

Don't doubt his legitimacy - it's laughable.




You seem to be confused. Legitimacy has little to do with skill. Your teacher could be the best swordsman to ever grace the face of the planet, yet if he isn't connected to a Japanese tradition through a living line, he is not legitimate. That's all there is to it, no amount of skill will make anyone legitimate.

If you want to say your teacher is legitimate, you say who he studied with, how long, what rank/menjo he obtained, and how that teacher is connected to a living line. Not how good he is and how much skill it takes to bring someone to 6th kyu in an art.

I have no opinion either way, but if you're going to argue, you should at least be clear as to what it is you're arguing about.

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#286024 - 09/18/06 08:40 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: splice]
Marishiten Offline
illegitimate Onna Bugeisha

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Australia, NSW
I am not getting confused between skill and legitimacy. Furthermore I did not bring up the argument of my senseiís legitimacy; at no point did I mention it.
However, he's legitimate enough in the Western world (has menkyo) and has been taught in Japan and is respected by Japanese Senseis, and that makes him legitimate enough without getting to the official technicalities
He has about 30 years experience and is only in his mid 40s. Heís an instructor in various other MAs too. I am not sure which Dan he is because I have never asked, considering it to be kind of rude. I was told once, but it being a long time ago and me being a new student, I did not retain that information.
Having a Japanese lineage doesnít change A THING in the practical sense; it doesnít imply that you know the proper technique or that it is effective. And for the sake of my ORIGINAL argument, whether he has Japanese lineage or not is even less relevant.

The reason I did not provide this information because I felt it to be not my place to argue on my senseiís behalf using information I could never be 100% certain of. It feels disrespectful. He may not be recognized officially as a Sensei in Japan, but he is known and respected. It does not detract from his legitimacy here.

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#286025 - 09/18/06 08:56 AM Re: No Pain no Gain [Re: Marishiten]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

I am not getting confused between skill and legitimacy. Furthermore I did not bring up the argument of my senseiís legitimacy; at no point did I mention it.




Even more confusion. You did not mention legitimacy? Truly?

Quote:

So keeping this in mind; the fact that what we're doing is 'dangerous' and the fact that my sensei was practically called illigitemate




Quote:

Don't doubt his legitimacy - it's laughable




These are direct quotes. You did talk about legitimacy, and you even warned people about doubting it. That certainly counts as a mention. Not that I care, but if you're going to tell people not to doubt your teacher's legitimacy because he has great skill, and then saying you never mentionned anything about legitimacy in your next reply is pretty nonsensical.

Quote:

Having a Japanese lineage doesnít change A THING in the practical sense; it doesnít imply that you know the proper technique or that it is effective.




Partly agree. It certainly doesn't imply that the technique is effective, no. However, legitimacy means proper technique. Not necessarily effective, but certainly proper and correct.

Quote:

And for the sake of my ORIGINAL argument, whether he has Japanese lineage or not is even less relevant




Perhaps not to you, but you are not the center of the universe. To many people who practice Traditional Japanese Sword Arts, lineage and legitimacy are the very core of the art. After all, if you don't consider that relevant, what is? I'm reasonably certain you will never have a real swordfight, never kill anyone with a sword, and never use the techniques you learn in class. If the practical application is simply not there, and you decide to discard all the tradition that is the art, what are you left with? A dance.

Quote:


The reason I did not provide this information because I felt it to be not my place to argue on my senseiís behalf using information I could never be 100% certain of. It feels disrespectful. He may not be recognized officially as a Sensei in Japan, but he is known and respected. It does not detract from his legitimacy here.




If you're not certain of your information, you really have no place to even speak about it. It's rather silly to withhold information, not even be sure about it, and yet insist that people should take the legitimacy of a teacher for granted. That's not the way it's done.

If he is not recognized officially, I am sorry but that's all there needs to be said about legitimacy. I'm sure he has nice friends and students and everything, but official recognition establishes legitimacy, not good feelings and opinions.

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