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#285634 - 10/22/06 02:04 AM Re: To Qi or Not to Qi [Re: senseihonor]
Sagaratoko Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Florida, brevard
hey, I started reading some of the threads on this site because I have always taken an interest in martial arts, especially the "internal" regarding qi, chi, ki, or however else you want to refer to it as, before i say anything I want to say I realize Im new to this site so I know my credibility is weak however, there is a lot i believe and a lot i want to say.

before anything, this is all MY opinion, now that thats squared away with.

as previously mentioned I have always taken interest in the "internal arts" being so i took it upon myself to study and learn about it in any and every way i possibly could, so everything I will mention are things i have learned (or mislearned)

there are two types of energies in the human body (regarding this subject) chi, and jing before i get to jing i will talk about chi, chi first off is NOT something that can be used to hurt people, meditating, acupuncture, and even some herbal remiedies are all said to have some involvement with chi, and in all these processes the body is being HEALED not hurt, i believe chi can be used for healing, but in order for it to hurt people has to be transformed,...that is where jing comes in, before jing can even be made, you must have a realization of your chi and learn how to control it, thats why when people try to make "chi balls" they never get any farther, because they are trying to use chi to hurt, or even blow things up, and that is impossible, try and think of chi as gasoline for a car, and jing is the horsepower produced, anyway once u can feel your "chi" or "sensation" whatever you claim to feel, then and only then should you even attempt to create jing.

I know ive talked a lot about jing but have not mentioned how to make it, and im not, the reason being is that i am not a teacher of this, I can recommend an excellent book, that i have found very helpful, and cleared up a lot of questions i had about all this stuff as well, the name is "T'ai Chi Classics" by Waysun Liao.

As for my experience,...oh boy i know everyone is going to make fun, or just plain dont believe me, and once again i know my credibility here is weak but,...It all started for me with nothing more than simple meditation and some relaxing meditation music, i would meditate anywhere from 15-45 minutes a day, I did this for about 2 months, during that i felt a "sensation" for now, we'll leave it at that, i figured big deal a lot of people have claimed to feel that but everyone thinks, ok what now? so I went on to try and practice jing, and i wont lie, i havent been doing it very long in fact, its only been about 2 weeks, but, ever since then those "sensations" i felt, instead of just feeling it i can now direct and control it (inside of my body, i cant shoot it in a beam or nething like that) what do i mean by that? well if i want the sensation in my back i can make it there, if i want in on my feet i can make it there, how will this benefit neone? i dont know the only reason im saying all this is because im noticing progress (or what i believe to be progress) also just like anything to get good at something it takes a lot of practice, i cant emphasize how much this is true about this, most people never get anywhere because they dont stick to it, because lets face it there are a lot of skeptics, and with good reason but, if its something you believe in then practice it to no end.

well if i offended anyone sorry and once again this is all my opion from my learning experiences feel free to criticize (im expecting it unfortunately ) and ask or add anything, adios all! ^.^

also one thing i will say about tai chi, BE VERY CAREFUL IN CHOOSING A SCHOOL the reason being is about 350 years ago the Manchurains took over china, and the chinese people definately didnt like them and saw them as outsiders, really though the manchurians tried to get obsorbed into the chinese culture, much so that they heard about tai chi and had all the most famous masters of the time drafted to teach them, well since the chinese viewed the manchurians as outsiders (as well as having other moral and traditional issues) they did not want to teach them so, Master Yang Lu-chang (1799-1872) deliberatly "modified" the tai chi forms into a whole bunch of slow moving outer exercises, completely ignoring the internal and mental philosophies, the reason for this was because if he simply refused to teach chances are the manchurian emperor would probably get [censored] and kill his family or something, anyway it was from then on that the manchurian emperor (believing he knew the real tai chi) popularized and encouraged this outer style of tai chi, making it popular and widespread, while the "real" (according to this information) tai chi was only passes down from father to son/daughter.
ok the reason i said all this is because a lot of the tai chi schools these days dont teach real tai chi, or at least i believe this, because most tai chi school (or at least the ones i've been too) emphasize way too much on thier forms and some dont even mention meditating, and barely touch the subject of breathing techniques, so if you are going to take tai chi, BE CAREFUL, wouldnt want you wasting...well wouldnt want you not getting what you paid for, because "outer" tai chi will still give you incredibly endurance and strength in your legs, but you could get that a lot of other ways too, ok im done!

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#285635 - 10/22/06 10:01 AM Re: To Qi or Not to Qi [Re: Sagaratoko]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Not a bad post for a first one! I have some thoughts on this I will post later.
Welcome to the forums.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#285636 - 10/22/06 10:57 AM Re: To Qi or Not to Qi [Re: Fisherman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Not bad? Pretty darn good for a first post!

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#285637 - 10/22/06 01:06 PM Re: To Qi or Not to Qi [Re: eyrie]
Sagaratoko Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Florida, brevard
thanks to both of you, like i said I read a lot of threads before i considered posting, and well that helped me out a lot when considereing how to write this.

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#285638 - 10/22/06 04:17 PM Re: To Qi or Not to Qi [Re: Sagaratoko]
Lucid Warrior Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 213
Loc: TwinCities, MN, U.S.
Sagaratoko,
It's nice to see a beginner not making any claims. It's obvious everyone is refreshed!

Before Fisherman posts something up, I'll try and throw something into the mix... but make sure to listen to him more readily than me because my posts are open to correction.

What you said about external forms without internal cultivation is true, IMO. One of my latest developments is realizing, specifically, two basic concepts of internal developement. 1. Opening the path of least resistance, and 2. combining multiple sources of pressure into the path of least resistance. This is, (as my current understanding) is both the function of the correct structure/breathing/grounding..etc.., and the correct structure/breathing/grounding..etc... is also the function of the above two points. I really don't want to address the issues of the mind though, because that is still my weaker point in understanding. I'm sure there is a whole new understanding just around the corner though.

As far as Jing and qi are concerned... I still don't really have a clue as to what either one are, (specific definitions), as I try to ignore what they are and just focus on making progress with what I do know already.. and let what new information comes my way be learned at the right time.

I'll say this, if you can feel any REAL qi or whatever from just a few months of sitting meditation, then you are extrememly lucky not to start with all of the physical/mental blockages that I started with. Good luck with your progress, and listen to Fisherman, he has set many of newcomers on the correct path in this subject. I might not mind having my above ideas getting his brand of critique either.

steve

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#285639 - 10/22/06 04:27 PM Re: To Qi or Not to Qi [Re: Lucid Warrior]
Sagaratoko Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Florida, brevard
Ill keep that in mind, thank you very much!

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#285640 - 10/23/06 08:22 AM Re: To Qi or Not to Qi [Re: Sagaratoko]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

chi first off is NOT something that can be used to hurt people



At least not directly in and of itself.

Quote:

i believe chi can be used for healing, but in order for it to hurt people has to be transformed,...that is where jing comes in



I agree that qi can be used to heal and it is best that it is used that way. I think that you are on track with your idea that it is the jing that can have a destructive nature. I just think that it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort training in order to truly manifest internal power as jing in an application of a technique.

Quote:

before jing can even be made, you must have a realization of your chi and learn how to control it, thats why when people try to make "chi balls" they never get any farther, because they are trying to use chi to hurt, or even blow things up, and that is impossible



I don't think it is learning to control your qi so much as learning how it flows and manipulating the flow so that it continues its natural course in a specific manner that is controlled by conscious thought.
I think that when people try and control qi rather than guide it, they end up getting lost as well. They may get a glimpse of what is available, but they are more than likely not going to reach the higher levels of internal practices.

Quote:

then and only then should you even attempt to create jing.



The only time I think that someone should try and 'create' a jing is after they have been properly instructed on how to do so by someone qualified to teach.

Quote:

I know ive talked a lot about jing but have not mentioned how to make it, and im not, the reason being is that i am not a teacher of this, I can recommend an excellent book



I find this quite respectable, thank you.

Quote:

It all started for me with nothing more than simple meditation and some relaxing meditation music



There is something to be said for relaxing nd alowing the body and mind to open up. Meditation is an excellent tool to harmonize the energies of the mind and body. This harmonization and integration of the mind and body is a key element to internal training.

Quote:

so I went on to try and practice jing



Jing is a manipulation of qi. It is not something that is necessarily practiced. Jing is energy manifested through different body structure and mind intent. For instance, the jing of a push is different than the jing of a pull. Jing defines the type of force you are generating and how you are using it.

Quote:

its only been about 2 weeks, but, ever since then those "sensations" i felt, instead of just feeling it i can now direct and control it



More often than not, in the begining, using the mind to direct attention or awareness to a point on the body can often cause you to feel that part of your body more. It doesn't necessarily mean that you are 'controling' your qi or creating jing. It may just be that you are focusing on a certain point on your body so that is what you feel.

My biggest advice to you at this point would be to find a teacher. It takes some time and you may have to go through a couple of different places before you find the 'goods', but they are out there.
Seems like you have a good mind of what you want in your training and have a serious interest to persue it with.
Best of luck!

Lucid,
Quote:

One of my latest developments is realizing, specifically, two basic concepts of internal developement. 1. Opening the path of least resistance, and 2. combining multiple sources of pressure into the path of least resistance. This is, (as my current understanding) is both the function of the correct structure/breathing/grounding..etc.., and the correct structure/breathing/grounding..etc... is also the function of the above two points.



This is a whole other thread in and of itself and a good one too. We may have to expand on this a bit.
My thought is that if you don't have the right structure to emit power from, then the power will be weak. If you emit too much power from a weak structure then the structure will not be able to tolerate the force generated.

Thanks for the kind words.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#285641 - 10/23/06 12:44 PM Re: To Qi or Not to Qi [Re: Fisherman]
Sagaratoko Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Florida, brevard
Quote:


I agree that qi can be used to heal and it is best that it is used that way. I think that you are on track with your idea that it is the jing that can have a destructive nature. I just think that it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort training in order to truly manifest internal power as jing in an application of a technique.



I definatly agree, any and all stories and testimonies i have heard about jing have all been about people who have practiced for many years in this art.
Quote:


The only time I think that someone should try and 'create' a jing is after they have been properly instructed on how to do so by someone qualified to teach.



I also agree with this, I didnt mean for it to sound as if you could learn jing on your own, and for that i apologize, even in the book i reccomended they strongly advise to seek a qualified teacher.
Quote:


Jing is a manipulation of qi. It is not something that is necessarily practiced. Jing is energy manifested through different body structure and mind intent. For instance, the jing of a push is different than the jing of a pull. Jing defines the type of force you are generating and how you are using it.




Fisherman, your definatly no stranger to the concepts of jing I am excited to have finnally found a forum with knowledgeable people, thank you

Quote:

More often than not, in the begining, using the mind to direct attention or awareness to a point on the body can often cause you to feel that part of your body more. It doesn't necessarily mean that you are 'controling' your qi or creating jing. It may just be that you are focusing on a certain point on your body so that is what you feel.

My biggest advice to you at this point would be to find a teacher. It takes some time and you may have to go through a couple of different places before you find the 'goods', but they are out there.
Seems like you have a good mind of what you want in your training and have a serious interest to persue it with.
Best of luck!




Your probably right about the controlling qi and feeling different parts of my body, I just get overexcited with things like this and anytime there is room or even slight evidence to say i made progress, well i want to believe it but it is as you previously stated, it takes years of practice and learning from a qualified practioner to achieve that level of internal development, I guess for now the safest thing is just to keep meditating until i am able to find a qualified teacher, thank you for your input and advice I will definatly remember it! also finding a school for this is going to be difficult so i ask, if anyone hears of any schools related to this subject in brevard county florida or close to there, please let me know, it will be appreciated!
once again thank you fisherman

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