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#284596 - 09/10/06 12:45 AM Deception in MA (pt1) - 'Halls of Fame'
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
This thread is part one of a developing series of 'Deception in the Martial Arts'. The goal is to raise awareness when forum members read someone's credentials listed on a website, or plastered in the dojo. Keep in mind, I use the word 'deception' - which too often points of outright fraud - but unless I explicitly give evidence of fraud, I'm only talking about deception.

Why wait to be a victim? Go with your gut, if you detect deception, get out and have nothing to do with that group or individual before you find out the hard way (by losing time and cash), that the deception was in order to mask the fraud.
That being said...onward...

Part 1. 'The prestigious Hall of Fame'.

Since it seems to be a popular event for soke's, GM's, honerary rank swappers and the like, I thought it would be an interesting project to compile a list of known 'Halls of Fame'.

Notice the subtle differences in wording for these organizations.
ex: "USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame"
is not the same org as "US Martial Arts Hall of Fame"


ACTION MARTIAL ARTS MAGAZINE HALL OF FAME
AFKA hall of fame
Alabama Women's Hall of Fame
American Karate Black Belt Association Hall of Fame
Amerikick Hall of Fame
ATA Black Belt Hall of Fame
Australia WWMA Hall of Fame
BLACK BELT HALL OF FAME
Black Belt Magazine Hall of Fame
Combat Hall of Fame
Cosmopolitan Florida Hall of Fame Martial Arts Brotherhood
Ed Brown’s Masters, Pioneers, and Legends Hall of Fame
Filipino Martial Arts Hall of Fame
Golden Global International Martial Arts Hall of Fame
Global Martial Arts Hall of Fame
GSKA Hall of Fame
International Boxing Hall of Fame
International Black Belt Hall of Fame
International Karate and Kickboxing Hall of Fame
International Karate Hall of Fame
International Martial Arts Hall of Fame
International Martial Arts Black Belt Hall of Fame
International Pro-Am All Styles Martial Arts Hall of Fame
IJJ Hall of Fame, Puerto Rico
Isshin-Ryu Hall Of Fame
Judo Canada Hall of Fame
Jujitsu America’s Black Belt Hall of Fame
Kaju Kenbo Hall of Fame
Karate Hall of Fame
Kenjutsu USA MA Hall of Fame
Kenpo Hall of Fame
Kenpojujitsu Black Belt Hall of Fame
Kids Hall of Fame
Kung Fu Magazine's Hall of Fame
Latin American Martial Arts Hall of Fame
Marine Corps Marathon Hall of Fame
martial arts black belt hall of fame
Martial Arts Hall of Fame
Martial Arts Masters, Pioneers, and Legends Hall of Fame
Masters Hall of Fame
Michigan Karate Hall of Fame
NATIONAL JEWISH SPORTS HALL OF FAME
National Martial Arts Hall of Fame
New England Black Belt Hall of Fame
Nihon To-Jutsu Karate-Do Kai USA MA Hall of Fame
North American Black Belt Hall of Fame
Okinawan Isshin-ryu Karate-do and Kobudo Association´s Hall of Fame
Pennsylvania Karate Hall of Fame
Pioneers and Legends International Martial Art Society Hall of Fame
Soke Grandmaster Hall of Fame
Shojukempo International & International Ryukyukai Hall of Fame
Taekwondo Club Hall of Fame
Talented Youth Martial Arts Hall of Fame
Texas Martial Arts Hall of Fame
UFC Hall of Fame
United International Kung Fu Federation's Hall of Fame
United Martial Artists Association Hall of Fame
United Sokeship Alliance Millenium Hall of Fame
United States Jiu Jitsu Alliance "Hall Of Fame"
United States Karate Instructors Hall of Fame
United States Martial Arts Association International Hall of Fame
UNITED STATES MARTIAL ARTS INTERNATIONAL HALL OF FAME
United States SAMBO Hall of Fame
Universal Martial Arts Hall of Fame
US Hall of Fame Martial Arts
US Martial Arts Hall of Fame
US Martial Arts Association International Hall of Fame
US National Martial Arts Hall of Fame
USA Karate Hall of Fame
USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame
USA Wushu Kungfu Federation's Hall of Fame
Vee-Arnis-Jitsu Hall of Fame
World Christian Martial Arts Hall Of Fame
World Head of Family Sokeship Council Hall of Fame
World Karate hall of Fame
World Karate Union Hall of Fame
World Martial Arts Black Belt Hall of Fame
World Martial Arts Hall of Fame
World Martial Arts Federation Hall of Fame
World Martial Arts Federation Blackbelt Hall of Fame
World Masters Hall of Fame
World Multi Martial Arts Hall of Fame
Worldwide Martial Arts Hall of Fame
World United Martial Arts Alliance Australasian Martial Arts Hall of Fame
WMAL Hall of Fame
Zen Do Kai hall of fame

I assure you, there are many many more. Those are the ones I found just within the first 100 hits of a google search. In fact:
Quote:

Results 1 - 10 of about 958,000 for "hall of fame" +martial.




if anyone has any such award, forgive me if I seem unimpressed.

In most of these, if not, all - the people (yes, there are more than one) nominated awards each year (and there are several categories and sub-categories), had to pay a sometimes heafty 'entry fee' to be considered. {wink wink}

granted, the fee often includes a meal ticket to some leftover hotel buffet...or the higher profile ones can afford renting a hollywood action star for an hour for photo ops.

judging by the photos people put up on websites of some of these hall of fame banquets, I gather the majority are basically a middle-aged white-male "see, I told you I'd be somebody" convention.

that is how they florish, they are ego sellers at top dollar.
Let's say you want to start your own 'Hall of Fame'. No problem, just think of a name....how about 'The middle-aged Japanophile Hall of Fame'. a half-decent plaque/trophy and a kanji certificate are about $50 at cost....then you have a banquet at $20 per head. Then charge $200 per person and you are more than doubling your money for a 2-hour event. It's not fraud when people know exactly what they are getting and agree to it....but it IS deceptive in the way that they try to make it seem more important and prestigious than it really is. The sucker soaking all of this 'noteriety' up, thinks he's just acheived something that is world renown...when if fact, no one otside of Tennesee has even heard of his particular award that is worded to sound as if the whole world coveted this honor. ...now thats deceptive -and like all deception, it's usually more effective on people less bright.

The irony is, halls of fame awards are so common, they only serve to defame each other. The sheer quantity (and growing) of 'hall of fame' award holders each year negate that which they covet...prestige.

If an instructor has one of these polished plaques on the wall of the dojo ...I don't walk, I run. They might be hellava MAists, and I might be missing out of learning something, but way too much ego baggage for my taste.

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#284597 - 09/10/06 01:52 AM Re: Deception in MA (pt1) - 'Halls of Fame' [Re: Ed_Morris]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Nice thread. Even the "reputable" halls of fame, like the UFC Hall of Fame aren't a reliable gauge of ability. Ken Shamrock's in there but we all can see how much he sucks as an instructor from TUF3.

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#284598 - 09/10/06 01:54 AM Re: Deception in MA (pt1) - 'Halls of Fame' [Re: migo]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Ouch, this is a little off topic but Ken Shamrock was inducted for his efforts in the UFC from its inception and his time put in ... this has nothing to do with his teaching skills.

Sorry Ed for derailing your thread and PLEASE people, keep Ed's topic on track. If you want to discuss other things start a new thread. If you wish Ed, have this and the other post deleted if you like.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#284599 - 09/10/06 02:06 AM Re: Deception in MA (pt1) - 'Halls of Fame' [Re: Dereck]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
It's usually instructors who mention they are in some sort of hall of fame, since that attracts students. Nobody else really needs to mention anything like that, so pointing out discrepancies between inductions and teaching skill is right on topic.

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#284600 - 09/10/06 03:22 AM Re: Deception in MA (pt1) - 'Halls of Fame' [Re: migo]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Have you personally trained with Ken Shamrock? While i don't agree with how he portrayed or was portrayed in the Ultimate Fighter i have met people who trained with him at his San Diego school that had nothing but positive comments even after leaving. This has nothing to do with the topic, as he is not trying to deceive anyone. His induction was actually based on achievements related to the UFC and not purchased or traded for as in Joe Bob's Hall of Fame. Is he possibly benefiting from his induction? More than likely but how is he deceiving anyone?

Back on topic.

Unfortunately there are unbelievable amounts of people around the world participating in such phony organizations. Some are more blatant than others but unfortunately there are people everyday who fall for these misrepresentations. I'm not sure if this guy is part of any of the organizations mentioned above, didn't really read each one, but even with his blatant lies being so obvious he still manages to run a school near San Diego and maintain a small student base.
http://sokesoto.tripod.com/
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#284601 - 09/10/06 09:38 AM Re: Deception in MA (pt1) - 'Halls of Fame' [Re: migo]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I wasn't trying to illustrate which halls of fame are 'legit' or not. and if you use the notion 'legitimate by association' as a guidline, then all which list Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris are 'legitimate', yes?

Thats the flaw of perception which are part of the trapping. The 'bait', so to speak.

I forget which one, but I remember coming across a HoF that listed the likes of Miyagi, Funakoshi, Mabuni ...yet weren't even formed until well after their deaths.

The earliest HoF I remember hearing about was Black-belt magazine's during the 70's - they may have even started the trend, I'm not sure. If BB mag is the standard...do any HoF have much credibility? UFC was mentioned, plus Judo has their own...I haven't got a problem with sport HoF's IF they base it solely on sport performance and records. I only included them in the listing because I'm not so sure they base it on competition records alone, plus this isn't a look at legitimacy on a case-by-case....I'm only saying, with hundreds if not thousands of halls of fame's giving awards each year - how special can it be?

so when someone lists a HoF award on their martial resume or displays it prominently on the wall....it's not, in itself, any cause for any great excitement.

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#284602 - 09/10/06 10:14 AM Re: Deception in MA (pt1) - 'Halls of Fame' [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Ed Morris -

Quote:

so when someone lists a HoF award on their martial resume or displays it prominently on the wall....it's not, in itself, any cause for any great excitement.




Well said, Ed. I think that is the real issue here. Too many HoF's have diluted whatever the original, noble intent was. The few legit ones are being over-run by the multitude of BS PPH ("pay-per-honor") awards and HoF's.

The problem is, for the beginners, and those without much comparitive knowledge, how do they tell which honors have any merit? Or is too much honoraria itself a warning sign nowadays?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#284603 - 09/10/06 12:25 PM Re: Deception in MA (pt1) - 'Halls of Fame' [Re: MattJ]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Guys, we're missing a very obvious trick here...

The Fighting Arts Hall of Fame!


I say we start by charging DaDon1 (remember him?) $2000 for a slap up banquet and celebrity guest Timblack - the mysterious, enigmatic and unkown celebrity ninja!
_________________________
My Workout Log

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#284604 - 09/10/06 06:03 PM Re: Deception in MA (pt1) - 'Halls of Fame' [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
JMO, but I think every style out there started some kind of HOF for "their people" and it got out of hand. As you say, the BB HOF was the original one in MA, but everybody got PO'd that "their guy" didn't get in, so they created a vehicle where he was "in the HOF"...

The fakey "nomination" process is done without any standards, just like issuing rank, so it's a matter of whether or not you have the "stuff" on the floor, or whether you're "nominated" by some student who wants his next promotion.

Part of the problem is "isolation" of the styles, and you can't expect the Isshin Ryu guys to know who's prominent in TKD (for instance), or the Wado Ryu guys to know who's prominent in Shotokan, unless they have distinguished themselves nationally or internationally on the "big stage" of martial arts.

Some of the styles have rigorous standards, and others are "at the pleasure of the instructor", so until there is a common standard of both performance and time involved, it will continue to be a "he says, she says" type of situation.
After all the politics I've seen over the last decades, I'm surprised it isn't even more screwed up than it is now.

Years ago, most of the 8th Dans were older than dirt, today, they are already outranked by 30 year olds. "In the real world" titles such as Kyoshi and Hanshi had "times of service attached to a test, and of 2000 applicants, they might issue 3... so they weren't as easily acquired as today... so getting listed on a "HOF" doesn't really take much any more... Find a student needing a promotion and have them nominate you... just be sure to send me an invitation to the "free dinner" that goes with it...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#284605 - 09/10/06 09:46 PM Re: Deception in MA (pt1) - 'Halls of Fame' [Re: Ed_Morris]
Spade Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
This reminds me a lot about a trip I had to Mobile.


Me and some freinds went around while we were down there to check out the local dojos, one of the guys we talked to said "I've won the Ishhinryu world championship three times in a row"

At first we thought we had really met someone who had great skill and knowldge.

Well, later we went to another dojo, and talked to someone who defintaly seemed honest and knew what he was talking about, and he said, quote "You know, some of those "World championships", are just mississippi world championships, or just mobile world championships etc..."

This certainly brought things into the light.
_________________________
"always paddle your own canoe." - Cord

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