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#284008 - 09/11/06 03:27 PM Re: Gradual and Sudden Enlightenment [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

So...for some there really is nothing to pursue.




So does that mean I am enlightened...or just don't care?

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#284009 - 09/11/06 03:30 PM Re: Gradual and Sudden Enlightenment [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I don't know...what do you think? I'm just trying to 'think' my way to integrating an archaic concept into a more modern context. Something more 'palatable' to the Rational Man.

Things are as they are...only the perception changes.

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#284010 - 09/11/06 03:36 PM Re: Gradual and Sudden Enlightenment [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

Things are as they are...only the perception changes.




And that is exactly the point...and is true for either accepting a larger religious/philosophical cosmology, or disregarding it.

Things will be as they are, our appreciations of them may change, but the difference can only be measured in individual terms---and not outside one's self. And there in lies the dilema.

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#284011 - 09/11/06 03:41 PM Re: Gradual and Sudden Enlightenment [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I didn't say anything about religion or cosmology...which I think of as different from 'spiritual'. Again...begs for a definition of the word.

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#284012 - 09/11/06 03:52 PM Re: Gradual and Sudden Enlightenment [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I guess it would be very hard to define religion or spirituality. But if you take spirituality to mean something exisiting outside the self or having an undefined existence beyong what we can measure in scientific terms, then I think we are at an impasse again.

Just as in that little philosophical mind game, where the tree falls over in an empty forest---when I am gone, it will not matter (sound or not), since I will take my awareness with me, despite accepting or trying to decline death's invitation.

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#284013 - 09/11/06 04:09 PM Re: Gradual and Sudden Enlightenment [Re: WuXing]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
*absorbing*
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#284014 - 09/11/06 04:11 PM Re: Gradual and Sudden Enlightenment [Re: MattJ]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Quote:

*absorbing*




...or 'unfolding'? Not a static state?

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#284015 - 09/11/06 04:17 PM Re: Gradual and Sudden Enlightenment [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
here's how this secular humanist views it:

'enlightenment' in an individual is a human-made construct, and therefore flawed.

enlightenment over millions of years to a species, is true gain in knowing...it becomes part of DNA. anything else is pretending.

the small realizations, wisdom and knowledge we accumulate and pass on during our lives is like how a single grain of sand contributes to making a beach.

we are each, almost insignificant.

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#284016 - 09/12/06 07:22 AM Re: Gradual and Sudden Enlightenment [Re: harlan]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
Quote:

I'm just trying to 'think' my way to integrating an archaic concept into a more modern context. Something more 'palatable' to the Rational Man.




Heaping illusions upon illusions. The "Rational Man" cannot be satiated. The rational, discriminating mind does not know that it isn't the one and only "true god". It is a part of the whole, but you cannot tell it that. While you are in its house, you obey it as though it were your father, without question. When you get older, you start to move away from it. After much experience, you realize it is just an old man grasping at anything that will support it. All children will realize someday that their father is not "god", and see the bigger world, but there's no forcing the issue. Every moment, everything is where it Is. Time is an illusion.

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#284017 - 09/12/06 07:26 AM Re: Gradual and Sudden Enlightenment [Re: WuXing]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I agree...but still leaves the thinkers in the audience stumped.

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