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#283567 - 09/11/06 06:45 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
I personally feel that kicking in a pair of shoes is BETTER in many situations. The weight of a pair of shoes (unless we're talking heavy duty hiking or steel-toed construction boots) is minimal & should not effect your kicking speed.

On the other hand, the shoes themselves can be a great weapon. For example, if I'm performing a front snap-kick into an opponent's inner thigh (a favorite target of mine), my usual point of contact is the ball of my foot. However, if I'm wearing a pair of dress shoes, I now use the tip of the wooden sole.

If I would be striking with the blade or heel of my foot kicking bare-foot, with the same pair of dress shoes I am striking with a wooden heel or the side of the wooden sole.

Since I have no desire to makawara the bottoms of my feet (& turn them into lifeless, unfeeling slabs of concrete), I KNOW that the striking surface of the shoes that I wear is harder & more painful to be hit with than the bottom of my feet.

On a different topic, in order to train for leg strength for kicking, I like to attach 3-pound weights to my ankles & SLOWLY go through my kicking motions, then hold my leg fully extended for a 3-20 second count (Kicking fast can cause severe tendon injury). I do this for 2 thirty minute sessions per week, & have found that the the muscles in my legs that support strong, fast kicks really have responded. These exercises seem to really hit certain muscles (like those on the upper sides of your thighs that support side kicks & those on the extreme top of your front thighs that support front kicks) that are very difficult to focus on in other forms of strength training.

Try these for a few months, & I'm sure that you'll find your "shoe" kicks will catch up to your "shoeless" ones in strength & speed.

PS: I still think ANY high kicks during a street fight are a bad idea. You never know your opponent's skill level, & with that in mind, you should always use your most efficient strikes (low kicks being one). Low kicks cause no less damage (in most cases more), and are quicker and safer.


Edited by Eternal_Student (09/11/06 06:48 PM)

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#283568 - 09/11/06 07:52 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Eternal_Student]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
High Kicks..........

Well if we are talking strictly self defense then I don't think it would be my first tactic for sure - this is simply down to the risk of being caught off balance and taken down/countered. It prooberly wouldn't be a 2nd or 3rd tactic either..........

Now in training/practise - I have seen footage of Okinawan Masters who love to kick high in kata demonstration,

admitidly mainly with a front kick and I think it looks like a head kick but is in actual fact perhaps only a low rib targeted kick - the rest is for penetration and flexibility in the leg training.

I used to have a mean jodan mawashi geri and a rather tasty ura mawashi geri, all this talk I think I shall perhaps not get that creative again, but allow the front kicks to go higher for a while in the dojo and see what happnens.

Re shoes I think we have a massive advantage if kicking with shoes, particualry toe kicks as the foot is supported more on impact and obviously dependant on the shoes the striking surface is often usefull. however I still condition my feet each week and have found good results from using the makiwara. A conditione dfoot is better than a non conditioned foot in soft trainers/sneakers.

I guess the bottom line is if you engage in a martial sport that has rules then perhaps high kicking is an accepted and usefull method of training,

for self defense I see litte use in reality - however it is a method used by some very old systems and for that reason alone people will retain the methods.

Personally I love people who like to high kick in the dojo (and arn't the best at it, LOL)-they really do go down well don't they!
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#283569 - 09/22/06 07:42 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: shoshinkan]
TheFinalOption Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
Well, personally over time I have developed a very nasty crescent kick (I know, its a karate forum...I'm sorry but I pick and choose my techniques) which I can rake across a face with or without shoes equally well. I know it would not likely be a fight stopper but my intent for it is to buy enough time for a real finishing move, like a side kick or spinning back kick. As for my cloths...I always wear cargo pants, and can deliver everything I know in them...so clothes arent an issue to me...to deal with shoes, I frequently practice my kicks whenever I'm just standing around and get bored, so the result is I'm typically wearing shoes. I also find wearing shoes superior for high kicks because they generally offer far better traction than the slippery bottom of a smooth foot (in dojo sparring barefoot I've had my share of slips and falls from the lack of traction) AND for my brand of crescent kick I find the added weight helps add momentum and force to the kick.

That's my bit on shoes. Hope my 'mixed curriculum' doesn't anger anyone...
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Gladiators, I solute you.

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#283570 - 09/22/06 08:19 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: TheFinalOption]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
The question you need to ask yourself is, When your leg is extended and at the head level of the opponent, what is the WORST that could happen if you: 1) miss or 2) your opponent blocks your kick.

In this particular position, you are basically totally defenseless. At the apex of your kick your entire groin area is ripe for counter-attack. I'm sure your "raking facial crescent-kick" is lightning quick, and incredibly devastating... but you never know the ability of your opponent in a street fight.


That said, the particular technique you discuss is just too risky to be WISELY used in a street fight.

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#283571 - 09/22/06 09:13 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Eternal_Student]
TheFinalOption Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
Possibly. But I am not looking to put anyone down in one move, like some people are. I know if I was gonna pull off that kick it would have to be adequately set up. And I would never EVER try it against someone with a knife (if I missed or they cought my leg, they could just slash my femoral artery and be done with it.)

The main argument for a high kick on the street is that most people rarely ever see it happen, much less expect it. People on the street usually want to box, or throw you on the ground so they can pound your face. Mad rage is a human condition not know for its innovation...
_________________________
Gladiators, I solute you.

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#283572 - 09/24/06 01:23 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: shoshinkan]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

High Kicks..........

Well if we are talking strictly self defense then I don't think it would be my first tactic for sure - this is simply down to the risk of being caught off balance and taken down/countered. It prooberly wouldn't be a 2nd or 3rd tactic either..........

Now in training/practise - I have seen footage of Okinawan Masters who love to kick high in kata demonstration,

admitidly mainly with a front kick and I think it looks like a head kick but is in actual fact perhaps only a low rib targeted kick - the rest is for penetration and flexibility in the leg training.

I used to have a mean jodan mawashi geri and a rather tasty ura mawashi geri, all this talk I think I shall perhaps not get that creative again, but allow the front kicks to go higher for a while in the dojo and see what happnens.

Re shoes I think we have a massive advantage if kicking with shoes, particualry toe kicks as the foot is supported more on impact and obviously dependant on the shoes the striking surface is often usefull. however I still condition my feet each week and have found good results from using the makiwara. A conditione dfoot is better than a non conditioned foot in soft trainers/sneakers.

I guess the bottom line is if you engage in a martial sport that has rules then perhaps high kicking is an accepted and usefull method of training,

for self defense I see litte use in reality - however it is a method used by some very old systems and for that reason alone people will retain the methods.

Personally I love people who like to high kick in the dojo (and arn't the best at it, LOL)-they really do go down well don't they!





Hi

And I have seen footage of a realy high ranking Okinawan master, showing defence against face kicks, thrown while standing, in kata.

I think the secret to high kicks is speed.
The ones I saw the master throw were so fast they could hardly be seen.Put it this way i have never seen a kick thrown that fast.



Edited by ANDY44 (09/24/06 01:24 AM)

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#283573 - 09/25/06 11:36 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: ANDY44]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.



Quote:

I have seen footage of a realy high ranking Okinawan master, showing defence against face kicks, thrown while standing, in kata.
Quote:



Are you able to show this vid?or is this just hearsay?
_________________________
http://www.hotforwords.com

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#283574 - 09/25/06 07:56 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: TheFinalOption]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
On the street, the average streetfighter is trying to protect his head. They 1st expect to be punched in the head (which is also what they mainly try to do.

Changing it up and trying a kick is one thing, but a low kick is almost NEVER expected because it's 1) LOW, and 2) a kick. Low kicks are nearly uncatchable, and very difficult to defend unless you've trained to do so.

On the street, low kicks are simply better... believe it or not!!!

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#283575 - 09/25/06 08:00 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: ANDY44]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
I would venture to guess that the master you saw kick so fast you could barely see it could in fact successfully defend against a that same kick HIMSELF.


Speed for offense should also be applied to defense.

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#283576 - 09/28/06 01:02 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Eternal_Student]
TheFinalOption Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
Well, I'm kindof a small guy, so my "nightmare opponent" generally consists of a well built,tall athletic guy around 190 lbs. That kind of opponent I really wouldn't want to box fight (I have good form but my arms are pretty weak.) That said, I also wouldn't want to risk a high kick...more like a kick to the knee or something similiar. However I think the midlevel kicks (sidekick, roundhouse) are good for taller opponents because the taller opponents will probably outrange you with their arms. So kicks can serve as an equalizer of sorts, provided you have the skill to use them well.
_________________________
Gladiators, I solute you.

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