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#283527 - 09/05/06 11:39 AM High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling!
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
Ed Morris suggested this as a discussion topic (high kicks, effective or not in REAL combat).

I would have to put myself squarely on the "don't do it" side!

1st: They take longer to fire out (& especially to pull back in), leaving the person throwing one open to counter-attack.

2nd: While a round-house to the head can be devastating (I've seen quite a few PRIDE & UFC matches where they caused a KO)- there are a multitude of other techniques that can be just as devastating. (a stomp kick to the side of the knee- which breaks an opponent's leg- comes to mind)

3rd: It may be difficult to ask your attacker to wait a minute while you warm up your hammies to kick him in the jaw.

I've got lots of ideas on this subject, & would love to hear your input, people!

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#283528 - 09/05/06 03:54 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling! [Re: Eternal_Student]
MikeC Offline
Dragon

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 130
Loc: Kingston Ontario
Why would you risk exposing yourself with a high kick when you could take their legs out: or kick them in Kenteki. Use of knees also comes to mind.There are better ways to use your legs and in a real situation showing off is not smart.

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#283529 - 09/05/06 04:02 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling! [Re: Eternal_Student]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I find there is not a simple answer.

I was once discussing this with an indonesian martial artist, and was explaining the superiority of isshinryu kicking, being lower to the ground and harder to stop. Before I finished talking he exploded back into a shotokan front stance and finished by putting his foot in my mouth, with no warmup or leading key motion.

As a general rule I think lower kicks make more sense, but honestly the tam tui'e ones of 1"-3" off the ground may be the best for that <GRIN>

But depending on one's level of execution, one's method of conditioning, one's style of practice, say northern shaolin systems, kicking (or any technique) is nothing more than an issue of correct timing, leading an opponent to set up an opening, and then interrupting the opponent appropriately.

I believe in the lower leg focused kicking of Isshinryu, but I also belive in people who define the boundries by their training.
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#283530 - 09/05/06 04:27 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling! [Re: Eternal_Student]
MattJ Offline
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#283531 - 09/05/06 04:52 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling! [Re: Eternal_Student]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
The more something is practiced the more effective it becomes. I wouldn't say not do do it,but if the opportunity presents itself then why not do it?
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#283532 - 09/05/06 05:00 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Eternal_Student]
Xibalba Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Lansing, MI, USA
The right technique for the situation could be anything. If a high kick just "happens" (without thought, instinctively), and it works (i.e., saves your be-hind), then great. I, however would not want to enter a self-defense situation consciously planning on doing high kicks.

On second thought, that goes for any technique. Ideally, one would not 'plan' on anything in a SD situation. The correct response should just 'happen', right?

Mike

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#283533 - 09/05/06 05:28 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling! [Re: MattJ]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
Matt:

I'm certainly not debating the devastating effects of a head kick. However, the video you refer to shows them in controlled Muay Thai competition.

When you eliminate MANY potential target areas from your choices of potential targets (groin, knee, etc), the head kick certainly becomes more appealing.

ALSO, when you make grabbing illegal (as in Muay Thai), you make a head kick harder to defend.

In real world fighting, it is simply not very "economical" (considering the amount of damage done to an opponent can be matched or exceeded by other easier to reach targets + you do open yourself up to a vicious counter-attack with your groin area exposed).

Also, I certainly don't argue that there ARE some martial arts practitioners who can perform head kicks with tremendous speed & efficiency, I would argue that they could strike other (lower) targets (that are just as devastating or more) with even more speed & efficiency than the high kicks.

Also, they may not have to fear ME counter-attacking their lightning fast high kicks, but another martial artist AT THEIR OWN SKILL LEVEL would obviously have a better chance of counter-attacking them successfully.

I am not arguing that different martial artists don't have different capabilities when it comes to high kicks.

I am arguing that the same martial artist can strike lower targets faster & more efficiently (with AT LEAST the same level of effectiveness) than he can high targets.

Besides, with that in mind, if you are not sure of your street fighting opponent's skill level (which you almost never are in a real fight), why not do the most "economical" technique?

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#283534 - 09/05/06 05:34 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling! [Re: MattJ]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
Cool Vid. I just don't like the matches when they can kick their opponent while down.
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#283535 - 09/05/06 05:42 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling! [Re: Eternal_Student]
MattJ Offline
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While I actually agree with the thrust of your argument, I think the MT match is a good indicator of the possible utility of high kicks.

Quote:

When you eliminate MANY potential target areas from your choices of potential targets (groin, knee, etc), the head kick certainly becomes more appealing.

ALSO, when you make grabbing illegal (as in Muay Thai), you make a head kick harder to defend.




Just to be picky, MT does allow kicks to the thigh (inside and outside), and kicks can be caught for sweeps and trips.

But I do agree that high kicks on the street, for the most part, are a bad idea.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#283536 - 09/05/06 09:10 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling! [Re: MikeC]
pepto_bismol Offline
infinite kudos

Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 480
Just yesterday I finished a work out in my garage, and was tired but I thought "lets throw one last kick" I through my round house kick (head hight) and my supporting foot slipped and I fell to the ground.

If I did the same thing on the street I would of been in a lot of trouble.
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#283537 - 09/05/06 09:28 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling! [Re: pepto_bismol]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
I agree that high kicks have their place when used right. But look at that video clip at how many of those guys lost their balance, fell, or just plain lost control when their high kicks connected.
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There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

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#283538 - 09/05/06 10:06 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling! [Re: Chatan1979]
pepto_bismol Offline
infinite kudos

Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 480
Quote:

I agree that high kicks have their place when used right. But look at that video clip at how many of those guys lost their balance, fell, or just plain lost control when their high kicks connected.




that's me
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YAY pepto bismol! No... not... kryptonite

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#283539 - 09/05/06 10:31 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Eternal_Student]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
I have been studying TKD for a few years and at my school I sit some where in the middle, I am faster than the big guys (but donít hit as hard) and I can hit harder than the fast guys (but not as fast). My flexibility, accuracy and timing are good so head high kicks have never been an issue. I also have been in more street fights than I care to count (it was the job at the time, I was not out looking for it). In the school for me itís 75/25 Kicks/punches. But out of all the street fights I was in I kicked two times, one about belt level to my opponent, the other about my knee high; other than that, all hands. I have always trained for accuracy/power in the full range Ė high/low. I know of several tournament fighters that donít know how to kick low with any sort of accuracy or power. All they can do is kick high Ė boy I love to fight those guys.

Like was said in a post above, I wonít say never, but so far I have not.

My .02
-JBC-
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#283540 - 09/06/06 09:14 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfilling! [Re: Eternal_Student]
Steel91 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 451
Loc: Alabama
A high kick is definately not the first thing I'm gonna go for in a fight but if I were to see an opening (most likely after my opponent is a little fatigued) then I would probly take the opertunity.
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The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.

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#283541 - 09/07/06 06:07 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: pepto_bismol]
skycatcher Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 26
Quote:

Just yesterday I finished a work out in my garage, and was tired but I thought "lets throw one last kick" I through my round house kick (head hight) and my supporting foot slipped and I fell to the ground.

If I did the same thing on the street I would of been in a lot of trouble.




LOL, I actually did that in RL before. I was just sparring with a friend in the grass and my foot slipped. Not too fun I must admit.

Something everyone should considder is hight. I am 6'2" so a lot of people are shorter than I am which in turn makes a kick to the head easy, but on the downside it allows them to slip in under my kicking leg and take me out if I am not careful.

Personally I don't know very many people that can control a high kick to the head. Most are easy to off-balance or give away a roundhouse coming up with their body motion.

If you're sparring, I say go for it. If you're in a real life situation where it's a matter of life and death - why risk it?

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#283542 - 09/07/06 06:19 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: skycatcher]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
i think in real life it would be wiser to use grappling or your hands, im excellent at foot techniques, i once broke someones jaw with a hook kick lol, but on the street, with shoes and jeans, it generally wont work out. If you want to test it do a little workout at home on the bag with your gi on ( uniform) and then with shoes and regular clothes, i think youll find it works out better with the gi! , yeah so i would stick with upper body in a real fight
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"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#283543 - 09/07/06 07:55 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
I think it depends how good a person is at kicking.
seems like effective mae geri s are a thing of the past


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#283544 - 09/07/06 06:23 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814

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#283545 - 09/07/06 06:37 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: ANDY44]
MattJ Offline
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#283546 - 09/08/06 12:05 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: ANDY44]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
that video was alright, but i doubt even they would try to pull that off in the street, find me a vid where someone beats someone with shoes on
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#283547 - 09/08/06 03:51 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

that video was alright, but i doubt even they would try to pull that off in the street, find me a vid where someone beats someone with shoes on






I suppose in the caveman thread they wouldnt have worn them?
Any how shouldnt that mean tight trousers/kilts?




Why do all these guys who get knocked out while competing all have their hands low? First thing I had drummed in to me many moons ago was to keep my hands up. Particuler if they knew the other guy had good high kicking skills. I think I will realy real consider getting in to ashi hari or kyokishin competition.





Still considering.





Even more consideration going on.




Well considered it and now eating




Edited by ANDY44 (09/08/06 04:28 AM)

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#283548 - 09/08/06 04:02 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: ANDY44]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
uhh.. anyone, i meant find me a video where the person wearing shoes wins with a kick
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#283549 - 09/08/06 04:17 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
ok


Edited by ANDY44 (09/08/06 04:18 AM)

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#283550 - 09/08/06 04:20 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: ANDY44]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
lol youll be at it for months , and bruce lee vs a drunk midget doesnt count
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#283551 - 09/08/06 04:27 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814


Edited by ANDY44 (09/08/06 05:40 AM)

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#283552 - 09/08/06 05:05 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
crab,

Wrong question, ' i doubt even they would try to pull that off in the street'.

Obviously you're unaware that many chinese systems only practice in shoes or boots. They use the strentgh of their footware, and the Northern systems have kicking skills that the Korean's don't even approach. Those skills are both in low kicking and high kicking and dynamic spinning ariel kicks with up to 720 degree turns.

BTW, those skills are not today's wushu ones, but ones for fighting with appropriate choice of technique for the situation.

Becase of arthritis I've only practiced in shoes for over 20 years now.

You need to rethink you premise.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#283553 - 09/08/06 05:58 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Victor Smith]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
im not saying shoes make it impossible to kick, im saying they make it harder, its far harder to do a fast hard kick with shoes on than bare feet. Its a considerable disadvantage to most people, ( except the styles you mentioned)
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#283554 - 09/08/06 06:28 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: ANDY44]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

Why do all these guys who get knocked out while competing all have their hands low? First thing I had drummed in to me many moons ago was to keep my hands up. Particuler if they knew the other guy had good high kicking skills. I think I will realy real consider getting in to ashi hari or kyokishin competition.




In my experience, they appear to have their hands low because they've either just been nailed by something and are still recovering, or because someone has thrown a feint or a few body shots to encourage a drop in the guard. It may be that they could have delt with the situation wihtout comprimising their defense, but I honestly think that the vast majority of people will drop their guards at some point in a fight and on these occasions they have paid for it.

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#283555 - 09/08/06 06:54 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

im not saying shoes make it impossible to kick, im saying they make it harder, its far harder to do a fast hard kick with shoes on than bare feet. Its a considerable disadvantage to most people, ( except the styles you mentioned)




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYTlmKy4NUs

I nearly always train kicks in shoes,loose jeans, training bottoms unless at the dojo.

My favourite being
mae geri keage Jodan,Chudan, gedan one after the other.


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#283556 - 09/08/06 07:02 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Supremor]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Quote:

Why do all these guys who get knocked out while competing all have their hands low? First thing I had drummed in to me many moons ago was to keep my hands up. Particuler if they knew the other guy had good high kicking skills. I think I will realy real consider getting in to ashi hari or kyokishin competition.




In my experience, they appear to have their hands low because they've either just been nailed by something and are still recovering, or because someone has thrown a feint or a few body shots to encourage a drop in the guard. It may be that they could have delt with the situation wihtout comprimising their defense, but I honestly think that the vast majority of people will drop their guards at some point in a fight and on these occasions they have paid for it.




I think your right but they dont seem to block, parry move or out of the way. I think i have only seen a few instances where the one getting knocked out was set up or pushed /knocked off balance. They just seem to hang there hands down waiting and seemingly relying on getting out of the way. But they dont.

Years ago (here we go) when i was competing it was realy hard to get in close against a good hard kicker.People with not so hard kicks ok.

Any way I will have to see how I do.


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#283557 - 09/08/06 08:36 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
crab,

How effective someone is kicking with shoes on depends on how they train, not just the Chinese styles I've mentioned. While I originally was taught bare foot, and most of my students, except the older ones, still practice that way, we have regular outdoor training where shoes are mandatory too.

I also know of some karate clubs that only practice in shoes.

Shoes don't really slow kicks down, and using the dynamics of the shod foot, it actually enhances some kicks. Front kicks people are conditioned not to throw because of elbows dropping on them are much easier when the foot's protected.

The shod foot also provides more precise striking edges, and more intense pain.

In fact in the US, the state of Massachusetts considers a shod foot a weapon and its use in fights is a chargable offense, and I've seen reports of fights where those charges were included in the chargable offenses.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#283558 - 09/08/06 08:53 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Victor Smith]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
We used to always train in shoes. For two reasons. One was so our toes did not get twisted in the puzzle mats. And the other was because if you are in a confrontation of some kind, its a good habit to be able to kick effectively in shoes. Your attacker is not going to wait for you to remove your shoes. I have a size 13 shoe so sometimes wearing shoes is a great way of adding some weight to my legs. Great for strength training.
_________________________
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

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#283559 - 09/08/06 08:55 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Victor Smith]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
what about people who dont train in shoes? ive been to lots of karate schools and ive never seen a class train in shoes, normally its just the gi and barefoot. Im just saying that for people who train without the shoes they are going to find it very hard to pull off even a good roundhouse to the head. By the way what ma do you teach?
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#283560 - 09/08/06 09:47 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

what about people who dont train in shoes? ive been to lots of karate schools and ive never seen a class train in shoes, normally its just the gi and barefoot. Im just saying that for people who train without the shoes they are going to find it very hard to pull off even a good roundhouse to the head. By the way what ma do you teach?




Well Mr Crablord when you train at home on your bag? perhaps in shoes? trainers?

Self defence in the street means?



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#283561 - 09/08/06 10:33 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Sir crab,

Any martial artists abilities are a function of how they train. I understand your concern when one's practice does not include shoes, but that's a school's individual choice after all. Perhaps the okinawan traditions about bare feet came from wearing sandals, and being easier to move stepping out of them? I've never seen the why documented.

As to which arts I instruct and practice.

Isshinryu Karate - younger students practice bare foot most of the time, except for specific training, older students wear footware as appropriate for their circumstances, and they also get outdoor training where shoes are manditory.

Yang Tai Chi Chaun. I've practiced it wearing shoes for 30 years.

My studies in the Chinese arts always were wearing shoes.

My studies in other arts (Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, Goju Ryu, etc.) on the whole were barefoot in the dojo, and outdoor training was always wearing shoes.

I've had instructors (and several students) who could pull off a roundhouse kick to the head in any circumstances, but invariably, their skill aside, they would most often choose another response for tactical reasons.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#283562 - 09/08/06 10:44 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Victor Smith]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Oh I see. In our style noone wears shoes at all. And I do train on the heavy bag most nights with shoes, but I still dont see how its practical to attempt high kicks with heavy footwear on for most. Although front kicks seem to be unaffected by shoes. Not to say I dont see what your getting at, but I just dont think shoes and high kicks mix.
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#283563 - 09/08/06 11:02 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Oh I see. In our style noone wears shoes at all. And I do train on the heavy bag most nights with shoes, but I still dont see how its practical to attempt high kicks with heavy footwear on for most. Although front kicks seem to be unaffected by shoes. Not to say I dont see what your getting at, but I just dont think shoes and high kicks mix.




Mr Crab lord

Yes they might depending on the person.
In the old days(and even to day) Japanese karate ka would train with an iron/ metal sort of sandal called a tetsugeta. They weighed about five kilograms each.

I have at some time seen photos of them practicing high kicks with these iron shoes.
Your average shoe doesnt weigh that much.
But I wouldnt recommend any body to do this kind of training with out advise.



Edited by ANDY44 (09/08/06 11:04 AM)

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#283564 - 09/08/06 03:32 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
We donít do this too often but at my school we have street cloths classes for this very reason. What ever you walk in with is what your uniform is. The GM does not give any advanced warning for these classes either so you may be in your work cloths or in shorts Ė the only ones that get an exception is if one of the girls walks in, in a dress (she gets to put her pant on under it). The best part is the looks every one gets when they find outÖ

-JBC-
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#283565 - 09/11/06 12:22 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
I never trained in shoes and every time I had a confrontation oops I had shoes on. One sec. Wait! I need to take off my shoes so I can kick you in the head! Well I never said that or took off my shoes but I have kicked people in the head with shoes on. The best one or I like to think the worst one was a round kick to the head with combat boots on. I almost killed the guy. Not with the kick but with the throw after he got up a few seconds later.


Edited by BulldogTKD (09/11/06 12:24 AM)

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#283566 - 09/11/06 05:48 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: ANDY44]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
Yes, in a traditional Dojo this falls into Hojo Undo, or Supplementary Training. It is still done in very traditional Dojo's. You can see the Tetsugeta at this Tsunami Dojo Web Page as well as the other equipment used for this training. I do not do high kicks, not because I cant, but because they do not make sense in a combat situation. However, what would be the purpose of doing high kicks if you could not use them no matter the clothing?
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#283567 - 09/11/06 06:45 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: crablord]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
I personally feel that kicking in a pair of shoes is BETTER in many situations. The weight of a pair of shoes (unless we're talking heavy duty hiking or steel-toed construction boots) is minimal & should not effect your kicking speed.

On the other hand, the shoes themselves can be a great weapon. For example, if I'm performing a front snap-kick into an opponent's inner thigh (a favorite target of mine), my usual point of contact is the ball of my foot. However, if I'm wearing a pair of dress shoes, I now use the tip of the wooden sole.

If I would be striking with the blade or heel of my foot kicking bare-foot, with the same pair of dress shoes I am striking with a wooden heel or the side of the wooden sole.

Since I have no desire to makawara the bottoms of my feet (& turn them into lifeless, unfeeling slabs of concrete), I KNOW that the striking surface of the shoes that I wear is harder & more painful to be hit with than the bottom of my feet.

On a different topic, in order to train for leg strength for kicking, I like to attach 3-pound weights to my ankles & SLOWLY go through my kicking motions, then hold my leg fully extended for a 3-20 second count (Kicking fast can cause severe tendon injury). I do this for 2 thirty minute sessions per week, & have found that the the muscles in my legs that support strong, fast kicks really have responded. These exercises seem to really hit certain muscles (like those on the upper sides of your thighs that support side kicks & those on the extreme top of your front thighs that support front kicks) that are very difficult to focus on in other forms of strength training.

Try these for a few months, & I'm sure that you'll find your "shoe" kicks will catch up to your "shoeless" ones in strength & speed.

PS: I still think ANY high kicks during a street fight are a bad idea. You never know your opponent's skill level, & with that in mind, you should always use your most efficient strikes (low kicks being one). Low kicks cause no less damage (in most cases more), and are quicker and safer.


Edited by Eternal_Student (09/11/06 06:48 PM)

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#283568 - 09/11/06 07:52 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Eternal_Student]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
High Kicks..........

Well if we are talking strictly self defense then I don't think it would be my first tactic for sure - this is simply down to the risk of being caught off balance and taken down/countered. It prooberly wouldn't be a 2nd or 3rd tactic either..........

Now in training/practise - I have seen footage of Okinawan Masters who love to kick high in kata demonstration,

admitidly mainly with a front kick and I think it looks like a head kick but is in actual fact perhaps only a low rib targeted kick - the rest is for penetration and flexibility in the leg training.

I used to have a mean jodan mawashi geri and a rather tasty ura mawashi geri, all this talk I think I shall perhaps not get that creative again, but allow the front kicks to go higher for a while in the dojo and see what happnens.

Re shoes I think we have a massive advantage if kicking with shoes, particualry toe kicks as the foot is supported more on impact and obviously dependant on the shoes the striking surface is often usefull. however I still condition my feet each week and have found good results from using the makiwara. A conditione dfoot is better than a non conditioned foot in soft trainers/sneakers.

I guess the bottom line is if you engage in a martial sport that has rules then perhaps high kicking is an accepted and usefull method of training,

for self defense I see litte use in reality - however it is a method used by some very old systems and for that reason alone people will retain the methods.

Personally I love people who like to high kick in the dojo (and arn't the best at it, LOL)-they really do go down well don't they!
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#283569 - 09/22/06 07:42 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: shoshinkan]
TheFinalOption Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
Well, personally over time I have developed a very nasty crescent kick (I know, its a karate forum...I'm sorry but I pick and choose my techniques) which I can rake across a face with or without shoes equally well. I know it would not likely be a fight stopper but my intent for it is to buy enough time for a real finishing move, like a side kick or spinning back kick. As for my cloths...I always wear cargo pants, and can deliver everything I know in them...so clothes arent an issue to me...to deal with shoes, I frequently practice my kicks whenever I'm just standing around and get bored, so the result is I'm typically wearing shoes. I also find wearing shoes superior for high kicks because they generally offer far better traction than the slippery bottom of a smooth foot (in dojo sparring barefoot I've had my share of slips and falls from the lack of traction) AND for my brand of crescent kick I find the added weight helps add momentum and force to the kick.

That's my bit on shoes. Hope my 'mixed curriculum' doesn't anger anyone...
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#283570 - 09/22/06 08:19 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: TheFinalOption]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
The question you need to ask yourself is, When your leg is extended and at the head level of the opponent, what is the WORST that could happen if you: 1) miss or 2) your opponent blocks your kick.

In this particular position, you are basically totally defenseless. At the apex of your kick your entire groin area is ripe for counter-attack. I'm sure your "raking facial crescent-kick" is lightning quick, and incredibly devastating... but you never know the ability of your opponent in a street fight.


That said, the particular technique you discuss is just too risky to be WISELY used in a street fight.

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#283571 - 09/22/06 09:13 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Eternal_Student]
TheFinalOption Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
Possibly. But I am not looking to put anyone down in one move, like some people are. I know if I was gonna pull off that kick it would have to be adequately set up. And I would never EVER try it against someone with a knife (if I missed or they cought my leg, they could just slash my femoral artery and be done with it.)

The main argument for a high kick on the street is that most people rarely ever see it happen, much less expect it. People on the street usually want to box, or throw you on the ground so they can pound your face. Mad rage is a human condition not know for its innovation...
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#283572 - 09/24/06 01:23 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: shoshinkan]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

High Kicks..........

Well if we are talking strictly self defense then I don't think it would be my first tactic for sure - this is simply down to the risk of being caught off balance and taken down/countered. It prooberly wouldn't be a 2nd or 3rd tactic either..........

Now in training/practise - I have seen footage of Okinawan Masters who love to kick high in kata demonstration,

admitidly mainly with a front kick and I think it looks like a head kick but is in actual fact perhaps only a low rib targeted kick - the rest is for penetration and flexibility in the leg training.

I used to have a mean jodan mawashi geri and a rather tasty ura mawashi geri, all this talk I think I shall perhaps not get that creative again, but allow the front kicks to go higher for a while in the dojo and see what happnens.

Re shoes I think we have a massive advantage if kicking with shoes, particualry toe kicks as the foot is supported more on impact and obviously dependant on the shoes the striking surface is often usefull. however I still condition my feet each week and have found good results from using the makiwara. A conditione dfoot is better than a non conditioned foot in soft trainers/sneakers.

I guess the bottom line is if you engage in a martial sport that has rules then perhaps high kicking is an accepted and usefull method of training,

for self defense I see litte use in reality - however it is a method used by some very old systems and for that reason alone people will retain the methods.

Personally I love people who like to high kick in the dojo (and arn't the best at it, LOL)-they really do go down well don't they!





Hi

And I have seen footage of a realy high ranking Okinawan master, showing defence against face kicks, thrown while standing, in kata.

I think the secret to high kicks is speed.
The ones I saw the master throw were so fast they could hardly be seen.Put it this way i have never seen a kick thrown that fast.



Edited by ANDY44 (09/24/06 01:24 AM)

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#283573 - 09/25/06 11:36 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: ANDY44]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.



Quote:

I have seen footage of a realy high ranking Okinawan master, showing defence against face kicks, thrown while standing, in kata.
Quote:



Are you able to show this vid?or is this just hearsay?
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#283574 - 09/25/06 07:56 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: TheFinalOption]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
On the street, the average streetfighter is trying to protect his head. They 1st expect to be punched in the head (which is also what they mainly try to do.

Changing it up and trying a kick is one thing, but a low kick is almost NEVER expected because it's 1) LOW, and 2) a kick. Low kicks are nearly uncatchable, and very difficult to defend unless you've trained to do so.

On the street, low kicks are simply better... believe it or not!!!

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#283575 - 09/25/06 08:00 PM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: ANDY44]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
I would venture to guess that the master you saw kick so fast you could barely see it could in fact successfully defend against a that same kick HIMSELF.


Speed for offense should also be applied to defense.

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#283576 - 09/28/06 01:02 AM Re: High kicks... look great, but less fulfillin [Re: Eternal_Student]
TheFinalOption Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
Well, I'm kindof a small guy, so my "nightmare opponent" generally consists of a well built,tall athletic guy around 190 lbs. That kind of opponent I really wouldn't want to box fight (I have good form but my arms are pretty weak.) That said, I also wouldn't want to risk a high kick...more like a kick to the knee or something similiar. However I think the midlevel kicks (sidekick, roundhouse) are good for taller opponents because the taller opponents will probably outrange you with their arms. So kicks can serve as an equalizer of sorts, provided you have the skill to use them well.
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