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Max Online: 307 @ 02/21/13 09:36 AM
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#282935 - 09/02/06 09:58 PM
american kickboxing
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Stranger
Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 2
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I want to train in muy thai but they dont have it here were I live. The reason is that I heard that muy thai is really effective for self defense. Im thinking of taking american kickboxing insted but I dont know how effective it is. Can some one tell me if american kickboxig is effective or not.
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#282936 - 09/02/06 10:09 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: pedro]
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heartbreaker, lifetaker
Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK
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Yes it is effective as its trained alive and as its a sport it has a strong emphasis on sparring. A rule of thumb, anything that involves sparring is likely to be effective since you will learn how to fight and learn to use the tools that work, only.
A very intuitive comparison between AKB and MT would be that they both have identical punching techniques, AKB probably has a slightly larger range of kicks, but doesnt have any of the knees and elbow strikes well known in MT. Kicks in AKB will contact with the foot, whereas the fundamental kick in MT connects with the shin.
_________________________
Cut me Mick!
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#282937 - 09/02/06 11:23 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Ayub]
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Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
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Ditto what Ayub wrote. Very good analysis.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin
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#282938 - 09/03/06 12:14 AM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Ayub]
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Stranger
Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 2
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Ayub thanks for the info.
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#282939 - 09/22/06 05:43 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: pedro]
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Member
Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
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I got an illustrated manual of MT not too long ago, it's in very bad english but it looks like it probably came straight from thailand- and I must say- it seems to have a lot of moves that your average joe warrior (or even your above average joe warrior) would have trouble pulling off in an impromptu situation without absolute mastery (and very good physical condition.) Nevertheless the basic clinch and knee seems like a relatively reliable technique, and you probably don't need a class to learn it.
As for AKB...I have no experience with it at all, so I couldn't make the comparison. But the summaries already posted seem to be accurate.
_________________________
Gladiators, I solute you.
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#282940 - 09/22/06 05:45 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: pedro]
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Member
Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
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I might add that unless you plan on conditioning your legs like Thai boxers do, AKB would probably be better for you in the long run, both in terms of effectiveness and safety.
_________________________
Gladiators, I solute you.
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#282941 - 09/25/06 11:07 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: pedro]
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The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster
Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
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I've trained in both Muay Thai and Kickboxing, well, the modern Kickboxing that we see these days like K-1. The difference between AKB and MT can be seen in my sticky but to make it a bit simpler. MT basically has 4 types of punches; swing, straight, jab and uppercut. There is very little dedication put into these techniques as most modern day MT boxer would rather be able to kick hard enough to break bones (idiots). In AKB, the emphasis might be on kicking, but in close range, AKB becomes boxing with bob, weave, slip, and many evasive movements. There is almost the same level of dedication to your fists as there is in boxing when you're training AKB for it is essential. Let's just say, American Kickboxers can punch just as hard, hell, even harder than boxers sometimes. What are their difference? AKB has better punching techniques and wider range of kicking techniques. MT has simpler techniques but more powerful elbow and knee techniques and wider range of them. AKB is faster paced but can create many opportunity for retaliation, whereas MT is slower but there is less room for mistake. AKB is a solid decision. It's just as good as MT, and you'll be having fun learning boxing as well as some karate kicks. Trust me, 8 years of doing the same kick tends to be a bit boring. -Taison out 
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!
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#282943 - 09/26/06 08:32 AM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Taison]
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th3 t4sty sn4ck
Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
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Hmm..If you fill up a heavy bag with sandbags it works well as a conditioning tool, its hard as rock (or sand). Although I doubt its hard enough for pro conditioning, as I can hit it.
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"
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#282944 - 09/26/06 10:42 AM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: crablord]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 832
Loc: England
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taison ur kidding urself if u think thai boxers to not focus on punching look at ramon dekker and how fast paced he is, i dont know where you have been training but here in the uk our champs are as good as the dutch and thais.
_________________________
Back From MMA@Legacy Gym Thailand
Currently Bodybuilding and Strength Training
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#282945 - 09/26/06 12:59 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Tom2199]
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the freshmaker
Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
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Quote:
taison ur kidding urself if u think thai boxers to not focus on punching look at ramon dekker and how fast paced he is, i dont know where you have been training but here in the uk our champs are as good as the dutch and thais.
Actually, your mistaking. It comes down to the training but out of most MT matches I have seen the MT practitioner's hands seem to be abit lacking. He is clearly stating that AKB focus abit more on the hand techniques. It depends on the fighter's trainers as to what he wants IMO.
Brandon
_________________________
Be "Water" my friend!
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#282946 - 09/28/06 08:14 AM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Eveal]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 832
Loc: England
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the only fighters that lack hands is the thais, imo
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Back From MMA@Legacy Gym Thailand
Currently Bodybuilding and Strength Training
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#282947 - 09/28/06 11:15 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Tom2199]
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Prolific
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
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I know where Taison is coming from. The way it USED to be (perhaps it's changing a bit now) was that Thai boxers really looked at punching skill as secondary to everything else. Their structure (traditional Thai boxing) really prohibited good boxing skill.
Now it seems as if they are using more of a classic boxing structure (some are anyway). That isn't how it always was however.
Everything changes and evolves.
-John
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#282949 - 09/29/06 04:22 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Tom2199]
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Prolific
Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
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Quote:
the only fighters that lack hands is the thais, imo
But...... then how do they tie their shoelaces?! 
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#282950 - 09/29/06 04:48 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Tom2199]
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Buckle up!
Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Taison is a real Thai boxer who lives in Thailand, so how about showing some respect? I think he knows what hes talking about.
_________________________
Even though you only have two arms you can still block with your forearms.
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#282951 - 09/29/06 05:36 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Cord]
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Member
Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
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<<But...... then how do they tie their shoelaces?! >> And open Durian fruit 
_________________________
"Irony is mainly used by the British in in order to distinguish themselves from Americans, which worked very well until the Americans had more guns than them."
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#282952 - 10/09/06 09:10 AM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: pedro]
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Member
Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 327
Loc: Prince Edward Island , Canada
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when you say they don't use there hands very much do you mean like TKD not using hands or just that there is a lot more emphasis on Kicking, because I thought I read somewhere that a lot of the time in Muay Thai fighters will spar without using there legs, or elbows.
_________________________
"Using a spoon to row a boat is clearly the act of an idiot." Cord
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#282953 - 10/09/06 04:54 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: kyokushinkai]
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heartbreaker, lifetaker
Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK
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Well TKD people do use their hands, a little. They strongly emphasise the use of kicks in training and sparring.
I belive he saying that LESS emphasis is given to hand techniques than in AKB, and MORE is given to kicking (especially) and also elbowing and kneeing.
_________________________
Cut me Mick!
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#282954 - 10/09/06 05:01 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Crash]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 832
Loc: England
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Quote:
Taison is a real Thai boxer who lives in Thailand, so how about showing some respect? I think he knows what hes talking about.
im a real thai boxer, so now u are disrespecting me
i think we have all been to thailand im not disrespecting him im just point out that maybe he is being a little outdated in his info. Maybe this is because he lives in thailand, alot westerners focus largly on boxing skill, some dont- most do. Fact sorry
if taison doesnt belive in his art anymore then maybe he isnt a 'thai boxer' anymore.
_________________________
Back From MMA@Legacy Gym Thailand
Currently Bodybuilding and Strength Training
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#282955 - 10/10/06 06:04 AM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Tom2199]
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The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster
Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
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Quote:
I think we have all been to thailand im not disrespecting him im just point out that maybe he is being a little outdated in his info.
I lived in a gym, 24/5 for 3 years. That's a lot of training per week. As taught by the standard curricilum, hand is not emphasized. This is fact, known from experience and training.
Quote:
Maybe this is because he lives in thailand
I live in Thailand, yes. So that makes me out-dated?
Quote:
alot westerners focus largly on boxing skill, some dont- most do. Fact sorry
Most westerners have background in boxing before MT. This is normal because boxing has been in the west for a long time. It's natural people will be more acustomed to boxing than MT. Another fact is that most Thai boxers start at a very young age, thus become more proficient at kicking, whereas western MT boxers start at a later age, thus making punching more natural for them. But sometimes you get good kickers due to different background.
Quote:
if taison doesnt belive in his art anymore then maybe he isnt a 'thai boxer' anymore.
How about you shut up? I've spent a lot more time in this art than you'll ever do in your life. 8 years seems like a short time, but I spent many hours a day not 6-8 hours a week. I've never lost my faith in MT, nor will I ever do. The only flaw to this system will be the practitioner, and it is his duty to improve himself, even if it means going to another system.
No disrespect but If you don't stop attacking me, the Thai people and the art, you won't be saying much in this part of the forum.
-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!
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#282956 - 10/10/06 09:46 AM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Taison]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 832
Loc: England
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Quote:
Most westerners have background in boxing before MT. This is normal because boxing has been in the west for a long time. It's natural people will be more acustomed to boxing than MT. Another fact is that most Thai boxers start at a very young age, thus become more proficient at kicking, whereas western MT boxers start at a later age
thats a generalisation
Quote:
most modern day MT boxer would rather be able to kick hard enough to break bones (idiots).
im not attacking anyone u are the one who was discrediting thai boxing (especially thai style) 'some AKB kickboxers hit as hard if not harder than pro boxers' where exactly are you coming from here? can a thai boxer not hit as hard as a pro boxer? like you say its down to the practitioner, your the one discrediting the thais with your punching theorys not me.
In my opinion and this is only mine, thai boxers are more likley to get proper boxing training. over here in the uk the scene is more closley related to the boxing scene than any other style of kickboxing.
thanks for your time
_________________________
Back From MMA@Legacy Gym Thailand
Currently Bodybuilding and Strength Training
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#282957 - 10/10/06 11:07 AM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Tom2199]
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The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster
Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
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For your information, another of the few reason that Thai boxers don't really depend on their punches is that they have elbows, knees and clinch in close range. Rarely will you see a boxer get close just to punch. He'll start grappling and use his elbows and knees in close range. AKB you're not allowed to do that. Even in K-1, no elbows is allowed thus people are forced to use punching techniques in close range. Classical Kickboxing, knees and elbows weren't allowed so you're left with 2 things; kicks and punches. There's another difference for your info. In AKB you can duck forward; while if you do that in MT, you'll end up getting kneed in the face. Quote:
can a thai boxer not hit as hard as a pro boxer? like you say its down to the practitioner, your the one discrediting the thais with your punching theorys not me.
I'm not saying Thai boxers can't punch. There is really little need to emphasize it in MT if you play by their rules. I'll list what techniques that is virtually non-existant in MT;
1.Shovel Hook
2. Horizontal hook
3. Lead Hook
4. Corkscrew Hook
5. Backfist
6. Swings
What do they all have in common? Most of them are short-ranged weapons use in close proximity. If you're using the logics of a MT boxer, those techniques could be ignored and replaced with sharp knees and elbows.
I'm not saying Thai boxers doesn't punch hard. They just have a lower range of punching techniques. They however make it up with strong stand-up grappling skills, elbows and knees.
Quote:
over here in the uk
Been said twice in this thread. You're making generalization of UK. I've seen quite a few places there and they all train more or less as the owners were trained in Thailand. Strong kicks and skillful grappling are usually emphasized. If you're doing MT with restriction on elbows and knees, then you're not doing MT. Simple as that.
Quote:
thats a generalisation
Name me one boxer of non-Thai ethnicasy that started MT at the age of 8, lived in a camp and fought to feed his family. From the top of my head, most people I know that practiced MT usually started at a later age around 17. Most Thais that are boxers always start at an earlier age.
Quote:
In my opinion and this is only mine, thai boxers are more likley to get proper boxing training.
If you're training in MT, this isn't a necessity. You might possess 15 different close-range techniques, but they're usually all thwarted when you get into the clinch. Then it's always elbow and knees that decide who's the winner until broken up.
Like I said; it's usually rules that determines the need for training. If you're practicing for K-1, it's not a bright idea to train elbows, but rather to emphasize fists. If you're going for Lumpini and Rajadamnoern, all those punching techniques can be thrown into the carbage can. The only punching you'll be doing in that ring is from medium-long range, rarely in close-range.
Here's some highlights from MT matches here in Thailand;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yPfukurJdw
Watch carefully and you'll see most matches; the ko's are from either elbow or kick. There were some impressive punchers in that highlight as well but most of them as you can see, punched from long-range and usually got countered with a kick. (Personally I like the 3rd Ko, throw to ground with follow up.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT-Lkqz_dnk
A clip of Benny Urquidez, one of the best representative of classical american kickboxing. In one match, he punches way more often than any Thai boxer would ever do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZuL7KCupc4&mode=related&search=
Masato of Shooto. A kickboxing style. See how his guard is very western in comparison with the open guard of MT? And the frequency of punches?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3di6HpvWas&mode=related&search=
Far more punching in AKB than MT.
I consider this argument closed. Have a nice day.
-Taison out
Edited by Taison (10/10/06 12:13 PM)
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!
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#282958 - 10/10/06 11:39 AM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Taison]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 832
Loc: England
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Quote:
thats a generalisation
Name me one boxer of non-Thai ethnicasy that started MT at the age of 8, lived in a camp and fought to feed his family. From the top of my head, most people I know that practiced MT usually started at a later age around 17. Most Thais that are boxers always start at an earlier age.
liam harrison, thats why hes peaked at 18-19
i understand where your coming from taison and i didnt really think about the whole no elbow and knee rules in K1 but if you look at bawkaw matches you will see they allow knees aswell? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=einZ010-cb0
im not sure whats going on there but his improved boxing skills show what a complete fighter he is looking as the 2006 champ also with knees allowd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agi_ygP8mP0
i think those close range tools are vital otherwise you will miss opportunities going in and especially out of the clinch.
_________________________
Back From MMA@Legacy Gym Thailand
Currently Bodybuilding and Strength Training
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#282959 - 10/31/06 12:41 PM
Re: american kickboxing
[Re: Taison]
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Stranger
Registered: 10/31/06
Posts: 1
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actually yes Muy Thai heavybags are great but after you feel good on the heavybags then Thai boxers step it up to the makiwara board to condition shins and fore arms as well as fists,elbows, and knees.
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