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#282935 - 09/02/06 09:58 PM american kickboxing
pedro Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 2
I want to train in muy thai but they dont have it here were I live. The reason is that I heard that muy thai is really effective for self defense. Im thinking of taking american kickboxing insted but I dont know how effective it is. Can some one tell me if american kickboxig is effective or not.

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#282936 - 09/02/06 10:09 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: pedro]
Ayub Offline
heartbreaker, lifetaker

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK
Yes it is effective as its trained alive and as its a sport it has a strong emphasis on sparring. A rule of thumb, anything that involves sparring is likely to be effective since you will learn how to fight and learn to use the tools that work, only.

A very intuitive comparison between AKB and MT would be that they both have identical punching techniques, AKB probably has a slightly larger range of kicks, but doesnt have any of the knees and elbow strikes well known in MT. Kicks in AKB will contact with the foot, whereas the fundamental kick in MT connects with the shin.
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#282937 - 09/02/06 11:23 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Ayub]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ditto what Ayub wrote. Very good analysis.
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#282938 - 09/03/06 12:14 AM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Ayub]
pedro Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 2
Ayub thanks for the info.

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#282939 - 09/22/06 05:43 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: pedro]
TheFinalOption Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
I got an illustrated manual of MT not too long ago, it's in very bad english but it looks like it probably came straight from thailand- and I must say- it seems to have a lot of moves that your average joe warrior (or even your above average joe warrior) would have trouble pulling off in an impromptu situation without absolute mastery (and very good physical condition.) Nevertheless the basic clinch and knee seems like a relatively reliable technique, and you probably don't need a class to learn it.

As for AKB...I have no experience with it at all, so I couldn't make the comparison. But the summaries already posted seem to be accurate.
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#282940 - 09/22/06 05:45 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: pedro]
TheFinalOption Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
I might add that unless you plan on conditioning your legs like Thai boxers do, AKB would probably be better for you in the long run, both in terms of effectiveness and safety.
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#282941 - 09/25/06 11:07 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: pedro]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
I've trained in both Muay Thai and Kickboxing, well, the modern Kickboxing that we see these days like K-1.

The difference between AKB and MT can be seen in my sticky but to make it a bit simpler.

MT basically has 4 types of punches; swing, straight, jab and uppercut. There is very little dedication put into these techniques as most modern day MT boxer would rather be able to kick hard enough to break bones (idiots).

In AKB, the emphasis might be on kicking, but in close range, AKB becomes boxing with bob, weave, slip, and many evasive movements. There is almost the same level of dedication to your fists as there is in boxing when you're training AKB for it is essential. Let's just say, American Kickboxers can punch just as hard, hell, even harder than boxers sometimes.

What are their difference? AKB has better punching techniques and wider range of kicking techniques. MT has simpler techniques but more powerful elbow and knee techniques and wider range of them. AKB is faster paced but can create many opportunity for retaliation, whereas MT is slower but there is less room for mistake.

AKB is a solid decision. It's just as good as MT, and you'll be having fun learning boxing as well as some karate kicks. Trust me, 8 years of doing the same kick tends to be a bit boring.

-Taison out
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I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#282942 - 09/25/06 11:10 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: TheFinalOption]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

might add that unless you plan on conditioning your legs like Thai boxers do



And how is that?

For your knowledge, the correct way to condition your shins as professional Thai Boxers do, is to kick the sandbags. How does AK boxers do it? Kicking the sandbag.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#282943 - 09/26/06 08:32 AM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Taison]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Hmm..If you fill up a heavy bag with sandbags it works well as a conditioning tool, its hard as rock (or sand). Although I doubt its hard enough for pro conditioning, as I can hit it.
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#282944 - 09/26/06 10:42 AM Re: american kickboxing [Re: crablord]
Tom2199 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 834
Loc: England
taison ur kidding urself if u think thai boxers to not focus on punching look at ramon dekker and how fast paced he is, i dont know where you have been training but here in the uk our champs are as good as the dutch and thais.
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#282945 - 09/26/06 12:59 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Tom2199]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Quote:

taison ur kidding urself if u think thai boxers to not focus on punching look at ramon dekker and how fast paced he is, i dont know where you have been training but here in the uk our champs are as good as the dutch and thais.




Actually, your mistaking. It comes down to the training but out of most MT matches I have seen the MT practitioner's hands seem to be abit lacking. He is clearly stating that AKB focus abit more on the hand techniques. It depends on the fighter's trainers as to what he wants IMO.

Brandon
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#282946 - 09/28/06 08:14 AM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Eveal]
Tom2199 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 834
Loc: England
the only fighters that lack hands is the thais, imo
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#282947 - 09/28/06 11:15 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Tom2199]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I know where Taison is coming from. The way it USED to be (perhaps it's changing a bit now) was that Thai boxers really looked at punching skill as secondary to everything else. Their structure (traditional Thai boxing) really prohibited good boxing skill.

Now it seems as if they are using more of a classic boxing structure (some are anyway). That isn't how it always was however.

Everything changes and evolves.



-John

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#282948 - 09/29/06 02:03 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Tom2199]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

the only fighters that lack hands is the thais, imo


Be careful. I don't like that tone and I definitely don't allow such comments.

Not even once did I say that Brittish boxers doesn't stand up to Dutch or Thais, so keep that out of the subject.

Another note. I'm talking about the system. The way you're trained is another factor, but if we stick to the system as taught by the standard curriculum, no MT does not emphasize hands as much as AKB.

Here's the philosophy of the two arts. MT you punch, so that you may create enough space to be able to kick. In AKB you punch when you are unable to kick which is close range.

Fast paced. MT is not as fast paced as AKB. The footwork in AKB is more involving and active. The footwork in MT is slower.

AKB there's a lot more shuffling of the feets during footwork, and more jump to the steps in order to be able to execute moves such as spinning back kicks, etc.

Having a quick footwork has nothing to do with the pace of the fight. MT is very offensive but very straight forward. AKB is also offensive but they have tricks and mindplays at their arsenal.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#282949 - 09/29/06 04:22 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Tom2199]
Happy Birthday Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

the only fighters that lack hands is the thais, imo




But...... then how do they tie their shoelaces?!
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#282950 - 09/29/06 04:48 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Tom2199]
Crash Offline
Buckle up!

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Taison is a real Thai boxer who lives in Thailand, so how about showing some respect? I think he knows what hes talking about.
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Even though you only have two arms you can still block with your forearms.

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#282951 - 09/29/06 05:36 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Cord]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
<<But...... then how do they tie their shoelaces?! >>

And open Durian fruit
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#282952 - 10/09/06 09:10 AM Re: american kickboxing [Re: pedro]
kyokushinkai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 327
Loc: Prince Edward Island , Canada
when you say they don't use there hands very much do you mean like TKD not using hands or just that there is a lot more emphasis on Kicking, because I thought I read somewhere that a lot of the time in Muay Thai fighters will spar without using there legs, or elbows.
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"Using a spoon to row a boat is clearly the act of an idiot." Cord

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#282953 - 10/09/06 04:54 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: kyokushinkai]
Ayub Offline
heartbreaker, lifetaker

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK
Well TKD people do use their hands, a little. They strongly emphasise the use of kicks in training and sparring.

I belive he saying that LESS emphasis is given to hand techniques than in AKB, and MORE is given to kicking (especially) and also elbowing and kneeing.
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Cut me Mick!

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#282954 - 10/09/06 05:01 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Crash]
Tom2199 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 834
Loc: England
Quote:

Taison is a real Thai boxer who lives in Thailand, so how about showing some respect? I think he knows what hes talking about.




im a real thai boxer, so now u are disrespecting me

i think we have all been to thailand im not disrespecting him im just point out that maybe he is being a little outdated in his info. Maybe this is because he lives in thailand, alot westerners focus largly on boxing skill, some dont- most do. Fact sorry

if taison doesnt belive in his art anymore then maybe he isnt a 'thai boxer' anymore.
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#282955 - 10/10/06 06:04 AM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Tom2199]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Quote:

I think we have all been to thailand im not disrespecting him im just point out that maybe he is being a little outdated in his info.




I lived in a gym, 24/5 for 3 years. That's a lot of training per week. As taught by the standard curricilum, hand is not emphasized. This is fact, known from experience and training.

Quote:

Maybe this is because he lives in thailand


I live in Thailand, yes. So that makes me out-dated?

Quote:

alot westerners focus largly on boxing skill, some dont- most do. Fact sorry


Most westerners have background in boxing before MT. This is normal because boxing has been in the west for a long time. It's natural people will be more acustomed to boxing than MT. Another fact is that most Thai boxers start at a very young age, thus become more proficient at kicking, whereas western MT boxers start at a later age, thus making punching more natural for them. But sometimes you get good kickers due to different background.

Quote:

if taison doesnt belive in his art anymore then maybe he isnt a 'thai boxer' anymore.



How about you shut up? I've spent a lot more time in this art than you'll ever do in your life. 8 years seems like a short time, but I spent many hours a day not 6-8 hours a week. I've never lost my faith in MT, nor will I ever do. The only flaw to this system will be the practitioner, and it is his duty to improve himself, even if it means going to another system.

No disrespect but If you don't stop attacking me, the Thai people and the art, you won't be saying much in this part of the forum.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#282956 - 10/10/06 09:46 AM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Taison]
Tom2199 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 834
Loc: England
Quote:

Most westerners have background in boxing before MT. This is normal because boxing has been in the west for a long time. It's natural people will be more acustomed to boxing than MT. Another fact is that most Thai boxers start at a very young age, thus become more proficient at kicking, whereas western MT boxers start at a later age




thats a generalisation

Quote:

most modern day MT boxer would rather be able to kick hard enough to break bones (idiots).





im not attacking anyone u are the one who was discrediting thai boxing (especially thai style) 'some AKB kickboxers hit as hard if not harder than pro boxers' where exactly are you coming from here? can a thai boxer not hit as hard as a pro boxer? like you say its down to the practitioner, your the one discrediting the thais with your punching theorys not me.

In my opinion and this is only mine, thai boxers are more likley to get proper boxing training. over here in the uk the scene is more closley related to the boxing scene than any other style of kickboxing.

thanks for your time
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#282957 - 10/10/06 11:07 AM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Tom2199]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
For your information, another of the few reason that Thai boxers don't really depend on their punches is that they have elbows, knees and clinch in close range. Rarely will you see a boxer get close just to punch. He'll start grappling and use his elbows and knees in close range.

AKB you're not allowed to do that. Even in K-1, no elbows is allowed thus people are forced to use punching techniques in close range. Classical Kickboxing, knees and elbows weren't allowed so you're left with 2 things; kicks and punches.

There's another difference for your info. In AKB you can duck forward; while if you do that in MT, you'll end up getting kneed in the face.

Quote:

can a thai boxer not hit as hard as a pro boxer? like you say its down to the practitioner, your the one discrediting the thais with your punching theorys not me.


I'm not saying Thai boxers can't punch. There is really little need to emphasize it in MT if you play by their rules. I'll list what techniques that is virtually non-existant in MT;

1.Shovel Hook
2. Horizontal hook
3. Lead Hook
4. Corkscrew Hook
5. Backfist
6. Swings

What do they all have in common? Most of them are short-ranged weapons use in close proximity. If you're using the logics of a MT boxer, those techniques could be ignored and replaced with sharp knees and elbows.

I'm not saying Thai boxers doesn't punch hard. They just have a lower range of punching techniques. They however make it up with strong stand-up grappling skills, elbows and knees.

Quote:

over here in the uk


Been said twice in this thread. You're making generalization of UK. I've seen quite a few places there and they all train more or less as the owners were trained in Thailand. Strong kicks and skillful grappling are usually emphasized. If you're doing MT with restriction on elbows and knees, then you're not doing MT. Simple as that.

Quote:

thats a generalisation


Name me one boxer of non-Thai ethnicasy that started MT at the age of 8, lived in a camp and fought to feed his family. From the top of my head, most people I know that practiced MT usually started at a later age around 17. Most Thais that are boxers always start at an earlier age.

Quote:

In my opinion and this is only mine, thai boxers are more likley to get proper boxing training.


If you're training in MT, this isn't a necessity. You might possess 15 different close-range techniques, but they're usually all thwarted when you get into the clinch. Then it's always elbow and knees that decide who's the winner until broken up.

Like I said; it's usually rules that determines the need for training. If you're practicing for K-1, it's not a bright idea to train elbows, but rather to emphasize fists. If you're going for Lumpini and Rajadamnoern, all those punching techniques can be thrown into the carbage can. The only punching you'll be doing in that ring is from medium-long range, rarely in close-range.

Here's some highlights from MT matches here in Thailand;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yPfukurJdw
Watch carefully and you'll see most matches; the ko's are from either elbow or kick. There were some impressive punchers in that highlight as well but most of them as you can see, punched from long-range and usually got countered with a kick. (Personally I like the 3rd Ko, throw to ground with follow up.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT-Lkqz_dnk
A clip of Benny Urquidez, one of the best representative of classical american kickboxing. In one match, he punches way more often than any Thai boxer would ever do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZuL7KCupc4&mode=related&search=
Masato of Shooto. A kickboxing style. See how his guard is very western in comparison with the open guard of MT? And the frequency of punches?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3di6HpvWas&mode=related&search=
Far more punching in AKB than MT.

I consider this argument closed. Have a nice day.

-Taison out


Edited by Taison (10/10/06 12:13 PM)
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#282958 - 10/10/06 11:39 AM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Taison]
Tom2199 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 834
Loc: England
Quote:

thats a generalisation


Name me one boxer of non-Thai ethnicasy that started MT at the age of 8, lived in a camp and fought to feed his family. From the top of my head, most people I know that practiced MT usually started at a later age around 17. Most Thais that are boxers always start at an earlier age.

liam harrison, thats why hes peaked at 18-19

i understand where your coming from taison and i didnt really think about the whole no elbow and knee rules in K1 but if you look at bawkaw matches you will see they allow knees aswell? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=einZ010-cb0

im not sure whats going on there but his improved boxing skills show what a complete fighter he is looking as the 2006 champ also with knees allowd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agi_ygP8mP0

i think those close range tools are vital otherwise you will miss opportunities going in and especially out of the clinch.
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#282959 - 10/31/06 12:41 PM Re: american kickboxing [Re: Taison]
teampnshmnt Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/31/06
Posts: 1
actually yes Muy Thai heavybags are great but after you feel good on the heavybags then Thai boxers step it up to the makiwara board to condition shins and fore arms as well as fists,elbows, and knees.

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