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#282898 - 09/07/06 08:02 PM Re: Kata, cat stance, and power generation [Re: Alejandro]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
As I understand it Koshi refers to the entire hip girdle including the lower back and the muscles inside of the hip girdle. Large hip movements develop the koshi or more specifically the muscles contained in and around it. In turn this development helps you develop gammaku which is a special power developed by using the koshi unique to okinwan karate. Chinkuchi as I understand it is a connection between the entire body when producing power in okinwan karate. I have heard okinwan karate referred to as full body boxing and I believe their development of chinkuchi is the reason for this. I heard a story of Kyan's chinkuchi being so great that the was able to throw heavy bags of rice by hooking the end of a long pole where the bags were tied and using a chudan soto uke (outside chest block) motion to tosst hem several feet.

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#282899 - 09/07/06 08:34 PM Re: Kata, cat stance, and power generation [Re: medulanet]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Thanks for the great elaboration, I always enjoy your posts.

By any chance have you read a fairly recent Journal of Asian Martial Arts article on spinal rotation or "waist power"? I cannot remember the exact title, but the article makes interesting comparisons to hip-driven motion and the more subtle motions of the spinal/back muscles. Though based on chinese martial arts and western principles and devoid of any Okinawan or Japanese terminology, it may be valid in the exploration of koshi, gammaku, etc.

Sorry for getting off track!
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#282900 - 09/07/06 10:17 PM Re: Kata, cat stance, and power generation [Re: Alejandro]
WuXing Offline
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Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
Use of the waist and hips, and full body power is definately not something uniquely Okinawan. Most Chinese martial arts contain these power methods, some at an even more refined and subtler level than any Okinawan style. This is not to slight the Okinawan arts which are a primary part of my practice, afterall (Matsubayashi even), but to point out that Okinawan karate really isn't so far from its Chinese roots, when you get down to it.

"Full body power", in fact, is the primary method of power generation for internal arts. My karate training with koshi gave me a jump on learning internal power (which I'm still working on).

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#282901 - 09/07/06 11:03 PM Re: Kata, cat stance, and power generation [Re: Alejandro]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
JAMA
VOLUME 14 ~ NUMBER 1 ~ 2005 -- Niiler, T. and Gong, H. "The theory of lower spinal rotation - How it serves as a style-independent description of waist power"

also check out:

1994 — Volume 3 • Number 3
Yokoyama, K. “The sources of power in karate”

http://www.goviamedia.com/journal/issues.html


this may spur some thoughts, or bring back memories:
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15816578/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

sorry to perpetuate the drift in topic, so I'll try to put it back a little. I see 'cat stance' used in a few ways, all of which have something in common:

* as a split-second transitional placement right before a low kick. (usu. w/ tai sabaki). Think of it as a change in momentum. if you slide to one side or angle, the thing that slows your momentum is your front leg. you are using the front leg as a sortof counterbalance to change momentum direction quicker.

* as a transitioning surface to smash someones face on. (imagine muay thai, bringing the persons face to your knee).
http://69.94.112.159/downloads/images/knee_img_0003.jpg
pretty simple but good idea. it spans styles, so that says something. what people are calling 'cat stance' in TMA would be the split second position the guy in the picture was in right before lifting his knee.

* also, as a sort of jujitsu either throw or neck crank transition like deal.
http://www.terra.es/personal/fjmoreno/taijitsu/serie24.JPG
also, a really good one. the pic doesn't do it as much justice, but thats the best I could find.

* another one I refer to as 'the workbench'. dropping the person's back down on your knee while moving. no, not this: http://ppc.warhawkenterprises.com/brucelee/brucegodbackbreak2.jpg lol
more like a takedown onto your knee, where you can 'work on them like a workbench' for a second before they fall. (probably one of the takedowns they removed from judo)

* then of course the submission-like natural movement:
http://www.zendojujitsu.com/ju_jitsu_images/jujitsu.gif

in each one of those, the common jist is continuous movement...there is no cat 'stance'. the 'position' only works when centers of gravity (of both people) are in motion.

so why is static 'cat stance' even taught? my theory anyway: In order not to loose this important principle when karate went en-masse, it was catagorized and taught as a stance - but in doing so, it's like trying to watch a movie by studying each individual frame. misses the story.

p.s. and I'll mention just to tick people off, that those applications can be worked from kata interpretation. (I suppose even the BL one)

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#282902 - 09/07/06 11:59 PM Re: Kata, cat stance, and power generation [Re: Ed_Morris]
Alejandro Offline
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Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Thanks, Ed, always thorough!!!
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#282903 - 09/08/06 08:37 AM Re: Kata, cat stance, and power generation [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Not quite what I am referring to. As you step, shift, slide, or sink into a cat stance your weight is directly above the heel of your back foot. This action is usually in a situation where you are shifting of the way by utilizing tai sabaki and deflecting/blocking an attack. As soon as the front leg recenters pointing at your target you sink, engage koshi to produce gammaku, and shift weight forward slightly. It is a technique similar to the power generation in Naihanchi kata. It is why in Matsubayashi we practice Pinan kata first. It really begins to develop power generation in a small area. It is the difference between hitting someone with a chain or a chain with an iron ball at the end of it. In american football when you hit someone people talk about bringing your hips or putting your hips into it. This is very similar to that. The hips or koshi don't move forward very far, but it greatly amplifies the power. It also helps you maintain good mobility to continue the attack, grab your opponent, throw them down, move around, or whatever.





Hi

Ok Im begining to see the use of the pinans kata methods and naihanchi kata methods and there connection and the use of cat stance / naihanchi stance for power generation.

or as you refer to it as engage koshi to produce gammaku

getting there slowly.

I have looked at some reverse engineering of bunkia and som e of it is quite good stuff.

I am looking or trying to look at the methodolgy of using kata as a learning system and I am getting there slowly but getting there.

You mentioned once that you once studied with a high ranking
karate ka from your own stlye? where was that?
America?



Edited by ANDY44 (09/08/06 08:45 AM)

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#282904 - 09/09/06 05:36 PM Re: Kata, cat stance, and power generation [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
[* as a split-second transitional placement right before a low kick. (usu. w/ tai sabaki). Think of it as a change in momentum. if you slide to one side or angle, the thing that slows your momentum is your front leg. you are using the front leg as a sortof counterbalance to change momentum direction quicker.



so why is static 'cat stance' even taught? my theory anyway: In order not to loose this important principle when karate went en-masse, it was catagorized and taught as a stance - but in doing so, it's like trying to watch a movie by studying each individual frame. misses the story.

p.s. and I'll mention just to tick people off, that those applications can be worked from kata interpretation. (I suppose even the BL one) :





Hi ED
I think

the cat stance is the power source for the hips there fore the power ends in the kick you described.



And it was taught static partly for that reason

One of the reasons Cat stance was taught was because it is a power source.

Ed you said BL ?
and I'll mention just to tick people off, that those applications can be worked from kata interpretation. (I suppose even the BL one) :


Andy


Edited by ANDY44 (09/09/06 05:44 PM)

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#282905 - 09/09/06 05:42 PM Re: Kata, cat stance, and power generation [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

okinwan karate. I have heard okinwan karate referred to as full body boxing and I believe their development of chinkuchi is the reason for this.




I had an idea about that. I read that te( I think it was te) was actualy boxing on okinawa.I think I posted it ages ago when the history of karate was being discusses. The more I see the top guys doing there thing the more I beleive that karate did have it roots in a form of okinawan boxing.

Just my thoughts


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#282906 - 11/14/08 08:54 AM Re: Kata, cat stance, and power generation [Re: ANDY44]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
bump

Just found this. Have to say...I had no use for cat-stance until some recent bunkai opened my eyes. Now...I reeaaally hate the stance...as I can see how incredible it is for power generation and how far I have to go to get good at it.

A new goal for the upcoming year.

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#282907 - 11/14/08 06:42 PM Re: Kata, cat stance, and power generation [Re: medulanet]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

One important aspect of power generation in matsubayashi is to shift weight off of one foot and then back to it to add weight to waza. This is initially trained in Pinan kata with the transition from a cat stance to a flat cat stance. It is then developed further in Naihanchi. And then finally developed even more in the classical kata. This practice brings together several principles of power generation and can be very useful in creating amazing power. At the higher levels the weight shifts become less noticeable and movement is very subtle. Any thoughts?




This is true of any decent striking form - power is generated by a transfer of weight from one foot to the other.

I'd avoid the cat stance however.
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