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#281409 - 08/24/06 11:23 PM Naihanci kata
Stormdragon Offline
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I'd liek to use this thread as a compendium of applications for naihanchi. What are all fo the various applications you've all found for it?
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#281410 - 08/25/06 12:21 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Stormdragon]
oldman Offline
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#281411 - 08/25/06 02:32 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
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The superman of kata a.k.a telephone booth fighting. The basis of my style, Matsubayashi, which is about 6 inches from your opponent, on his blind side, in control(grabbing him) ready to pound him so hard he doesn't even see the ground coming.

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#281412 - 08/25/06 08:00 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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one thing I never understood about naihanchi (from observing it) : why fight from the side? sure an attack could come from the side, but why continue to hold ground and fight at that angle?

first natural reaction to an incoming attack: get out of the way and/or cover.
bonus points if you can redirect an attack INTO your counter.
Naihanchi seems counter-intuitive to a reflex response....or it could be I just never learned naihanchi (which I haven't, so it should be easy to defend against my argument).

btw, In the situation frame 1 of the oldman's strip...there is a simultaneous pull/strike notion in Goju - I think 'simple' would come to mind first before holding ground and recalling a sequence. but like I said, I don't know naihanchi.

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#281413 - 08/25/06 08:54 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Paulol Offline
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Quote:

first natural reaction to an incoming attack: get out of the way and/or cover.
bonus points if you can redirect an attack INTO your counter.


Naihanchi can have the ellements you mention here!!

Though I see it as containing more grappling moves than strikes

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#281414 - 08/25/06 11:25 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
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Quote:


one thing I never understood about naihanchi (from observing it) : why fight from the side?




Ed,
It does not have to be that static. Theoreticaly your opponant could be in front to the side or behind. That was just one example. An example that was easier to draw that some others.

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#281415 - 08/25/06 12:10 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Littlpond Offline
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Quote:

one thing I never understood about naihanchi (from observing it) : why fight from the side? sure an attack could come from the side, but why continue to hold ground and fight at that angle? first natural reaction to an incoming attack: get out of the way and/or cover.
bonus points if you can redirect an attack INTO your counter.
Naihanchi seems counter-intuitive to a reflex response....or it could be I just never learned naihanchi (which I haven't, so it should be easy to defend against my argument).

btw, In the situation frame 1 of the oldman's strip...there is a simultaneous pull/strike notion in Goju - I think 'simple' would come to mind first before holding ground and recalling a sequence. but like I said, I don't know naihanchi.



I have been taught this is a kata to train on a balance beam. It does contain a ton of variations in bunki, I have seen lots of varitations in interpertation. However I feel the true streght of the kata comes from performing it on a 6 to 8 inch wide beam. the higher off the ground the better. It is one thing to do it on the ground with focus and power. It is another thing completely to do it 5 feet up. I hope this helps explain the lateral movements.

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#281416 - 08/25/06 12:35 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Littlpond]
BrianS Offline
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Little pond,
Although that would explain the lateral movements,it doesn't make sense. It's like saying it was meant to defend yourself with your back to the wall or on rice paddies. Why would any effort be put into making a kata with such limited uses???

Mark,
I'm with Ed on the first movement. What is the hand doing on the hip on the other side if not grabbing? I realize it's just a theory application and I appreciate your drawings tremendously!

Not knowing the kata doesn't mean you can't figure out the applications,just look at the movements in your other kata.
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#281417 - 08/25/06 12:46 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Littlpond]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I like the 'on a boat' and 'guarding a castle with your back to a wall' stories better.

I'm trying to picture how many times fighting on a beam skill comes in handy. 2nd story battle in the rafters? fallen log river crossing encounters? or perhaps defending yourself when just minding your own business strolling on a tree branch....

someone doing 2-person naihanchi bunkai on a balance beam...now THERE'S a video I'd like to see!

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#281418 - 08/25/06 12:50 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

someone doing 2-person naihanchi bunkai on a balance beam...now THERE'S a video I'd like to see!





You mean where the attacker on the right attacks and until you dismantle him with 47 blocks and one strike and then turn,the attacker on the left is stuck in a trance?
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#281419 - 08/25/06 12:59 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Stormdragon Offline
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What's weird is naihanchi shodan is supposed to be a spectacular kata yet I find better applications in the other 2. Why is that? Maybe I'm just not good with bunkai. Oh well. There's lot's of tegumi in the others.
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#281420 - 08/25/06 01:50 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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From what I've heard, Naihanchi is categorized as a Heishu Kata and, like Sanchin kata, is a training/development form. Naihanchi='internal divided conflict'. Sanchin='3 conflicts'. The 'internal battles' generally thought to be referred to is mind, body and spirit. ...or in other words, the internal struggles that athletes 'dig deep' for. The difference being an exercise that the practioner has to 'deep deep' to perfect the principals of body dynamics that are benefital to self-defence by design.

Of course useful specific interpretations can be extracted from Haishu kata when broken apart, and it's a personal choice if it's trained that way, it's also a personal belief that these kata were not taught as application katas but rather as 'molding the clay' exercises. ...thats why they were taught first - to mold the student's body to strong body mechanics. Sanchin is typically still taught at first in Goju, but Naihanchi seems typically a brown belt kata, displaced by pinan 1-5.

For fun, I'd like to someday experiment with training naihanchi using sanchin methods. whats interesting to note is from what I see in the movements of naihanchi, except for the lateral position of the stance/body, most of what the arms are doing can be found in various other kata across systems. Same with Sanchin, except with IT'S own characteristic of the hourglass boxer's stance. what the hands are doing can be found elsewhere if you are looking for application.

The reason it's better to look at the open hand katas (kaishugata) for application vs. haishugata, is because kaishu kata shows the relative angling and timing of upper/lower body much better.

look at the directioning parallels with kaishu vs. haishu : naihanchi & sanchin basically address 2 directions (I know you can read more directions into it, but c'mon naihanchi goes left and right and sanchin goes front and back). kaishu kata addresses angles in 8 directions (45 degrees).

just some thoughts...

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#281421 - 08/25/06 02:32 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Are you guys reading what I have written for the past couple of years on Naihanchi? It is the ultimate inside fighting kata and the foundation of all shorin ryu!!! Please seek out qualified teachers, there are not many left these days. Think 45 DEGREE ANGLE, that is where the attack is coming from. This from the side and back to the wall stuff is preschool. Maybe back to the wall is meant figuratively like your back is to the wall there is not where to go, use Naihanchi and live. Again, this is the problem with reverse engineering, you start fixing what is not broken and forget the main principles of fighting in shorin ryu.

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#281422 - 08/25/06 07:30 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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you've written great stuff on the subject.
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=37&Number=15840836

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=10&Number=9951586

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=10&Number=9952012

...to name a few.

I'm not saying the direction of the incoming attack, I'm talking about the direction of response relative to the angle of attack.

In naihanchi, if you expect me to interpret this for all-in-one application...

attack: someone attacks from the front.
lower body response: naihanchi dachi.

attack: someone attacks from a 45 degree angle.
lower body response: naihanchi dachi.

attack: from the side.
lower body response: naihanchi dachi.

sorry, not likely.
clearly naihanchi is not intended for an all-in-one package for actual application. By that I mean, sure it probably has very cool stand-up grappling principals (if taught), but I just don't see responding to an incoming attack with a horse stance....unless immediately setting up into a judo-like throw. (in my limited opinion) Kusanku and Chinto for instance look much more reasonable for reactive response interpretion. Then naihanchi training could come into play when in your clutches.

like I said, just thoughts for conversation...

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#281423 - 08/25/06 08:07 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: BrianS]
oldman Offline
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B,
If I were to draw the applications in a more relaxed and natural stance the correlation to the form would be less obvious to the uninitiated. They would say "that doesn't look like the form". So the drawing if taken literally can look impractical or even absurd. The illustration as a story needs a begining, middle and an end. If a person counted out movements 1... 2...3....4 most people see the numbers as the place where the application happens when they many times happen on the ... When I get some more time maybe I can show other posibilities of those same movements.

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#281424 - 08/26/06 07:02 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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From the applications I have seen of this kata(tekki) ED I am agree ing with medulant.It is effective inside fighting.

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#281425 - 08/26/06 07:33 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I'm reading if you care to elaborate. and who was saying it doesn't contain inside fighting? I'm not arguing that, if you read my posts.
I'm merely hypothisizing for the sake of conversation and understanding 'A' potential focus of naihanchi study (non-application focus), not taking a poll of who agrees with who - the only time I care about the popular vote is for elections.
If there is no elaboration of specific thoughts/experiences or even guesses on the subject, there is really no need for head nods.

sorry to sound harsh, just trying to draw out specific opinions.

so you train inside applications for naihanchi, cool. next question: how do you position TO the inside after an incoming attack without moving your lower body? or are the applications you practice assuming you are already inside?

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#281426 - 08/26/06 08:30 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
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for me one of the key messages of naihanchi application is the cross step to position yourself to one side of the attacker, who is in front of you, a bit left or a bit right - but in front of you.

ie cross step at an angle, straighten up directly (ish) to the side. The attackers attack should position them in 'your' space, so no need to step forward 'big' (ie use the kosa dachi) as in say the Pinan.

Often we are 'dragging' limbs/necks/bodies with Naihanchi step technique, set up by a load of lovely strikes/low kicks.

IMO it is absolutly an application kata, sanchin is a different animal and I agree can be considered 'tanren' or training.

Of course naihanchi as every other kata delivers fantastic training benefits as well, power sourcing, posture, hip flex etc etc. However Naihanchi 'really' focuses on those things due to it's repetative, simple format and short presentation.

I teach Pinan Sho/Ni then Naihanchi Sho/Ni and believe this to be a good method of teaching the basis of shorin ryu technique before the 'classical' kata, begining with seisan.
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#281427 - 08/26/06 08:34 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: oldman]
shoshinkan Offline
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Oldman,

your post re your drawings is exactly what was mentioned/discussed previously about using the Naihanchi Dachi in application, the toes should be straight forward or more likely out just a little, 22.5 degrees works for me!

In the kata I train them at straight forward for power generation reasons and form, in application it all 'lossens' up a little, it has to - to work.
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#281428 - 08/26/06 09:51 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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how do you position TO the inside after an incoming attack without moving your lower body?
Hi ED

And how would I get inside ED?

Your second question
or are the applications you practice assuming you are already inside?


My answer
They can be practiced stand alone yes.


Hi Ed again
The anwer to your question.Im going to be as cryptic as you normaly are.
so as I see it the kata Naifanchi,translated from okinawan

to "stepping with stealth"?

which is used as a "tanren"

kata on the birth place of karate.

To answer your question while still nodding my head and totaly agreeing with medulant in that some of you guys dont read what he writes.

Does the Naihanchi kata being practiced in the place where karate came from just use the horse stance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motobu_Choki

This gentle man used Naihanchi.In fact the way he uses it exactly how I would expect it to be used from a "Fighter".
I have some where on my computer an old black and white film/vidio of him drilling it with another famouse karate ka.
They dont just use horse stance either.

So Im going to be cryptic here, just like you are in your own thought provoking way, and say to you seek out the old black and white film of him drilling the kata.Or look at the kata being used in the place karate came from. There in lies your answer.Then in one of your classes work out how to use the technique to get inside an attack

Practice the techniques as a stand alone method

Then have someone as i did throw full contact techniques at you and make the thing use able.

Then use what you have in full contact sparring.(but pull on some techniques after all ukes are of little use injured.
After all isnt that kata was for? Usable techniques?
No good to me if they have no use.Then it becomes a dance.

I dont mind your attempts at sounding harsh Ed, My training partners can be harsher.




How was your mawashi class?


Edited by ANDY44 (08/26/06 10:53 AM)

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#281429 - 08/26/06 10:35 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
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it's ok to agree/disagree, but it's helpful when people do so by elaborating a bit.

I don't use the names 'naihanchi' and 'tekki' interchangably. as I understand, 'tekki' is the renamed version of Funakoshi, with further modification in Japan separate from what okinawan styles practice. Even Funakoshi's version is a far cry from what most Shotokan schools are doing now and calling tekki, it seems.

horse stance / straddled stance / parallel / arch ...whatever translated terms are used, we are talking about the same thing: 'naihanchi dachi' which is the stance Motobu is in, with the link you gave. not the tournament squatting stance.

The stance and transition in naihanchi is similar in appearence (not necessarily in mechanics - I'm not sure) to what goju refers to as 'kiba dachi'.

I'll keep an eye out for the film you mention. hopefully it will turn up in the thread at some point.

I'll just read the thread for a while. I realize it's a bit rude to corner people into answering specifics since they either don't know, aren't sure, can't relay via text, or don't want to give away their 'secrets'....or also possible - are afraid they might be doing something without knowing why and don't want anyone to know that they don't know. lol

it's all good, we're all students.

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#281430 - 08/26/06 01:05 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Your statement

I'll just read the thread for a while. I realize it's a bit rude to corner people into answering specifics since they either don't know, aren't sure, can't relay via text, or don't want to give away their 'secrets'....or also possible - are afraid they might be doing something without knowing why and don't want anyone to know that they don't know. lol

Hi ED

Dont get this part of the conversation.
I am working at my fight game. Using whatever methods I see that would work. I study fighters. The okinawans(the ones I have seen) have a system I want to incorperate in to what I do.

Thats about it.
I see trained with guys from kykoshin whos used brute force.I trained in shotokan which is to me based on kick punch block strategy.I trained with other styles. I see goju using the persons energy against them. I see aikido as a way of starting to use locks/ peoples energy that I think exits in goju. I see tai chi using the methods being used in goju to unbalance. I have to study every body elses art before I get where I want to. It all boils down to I have seen what I want in goju . Problem is unless I move to okinwawa I dont think it is availabke here in one style to study? Im not interested in grades as such more ability.

So untill such time I am working at it.


Just another point. How do i post a thread or rather a topic?




Edited by ANDY44 (08/26/06 01:40 PM)

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#281431 - 08/26/06 02:03 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Ed, I believe the question you are asking to which you feel you have gotten no response is the all in one attack defender for naihachi. For inside fighting yes it is the only response you need. Some stances have good sinking and some good rising power. Naihanchi has both. Think about it this way. When playing football(american) a person practices bag drills such as high knees and cut drills. These drills, which are not against resisting opponents are used to develop a specific skills set to deal with someone coming at you full speed attempting to do bodily harm. When applied to a resisting opponent the skills used in the drills can be adjusted depending on the situation, but the principles of high knees and cutting are the same as done on the bags. Naihanchi is the same. It teaches one to develop power in a small area. The cross steps are the entrance with leg techs for unbalancing thrown in. That is the main reason why they cross because I can enter with a shuffle step if I don't want to apply leg techs on my way in. Even on a shot the 45 degree angle on which I step and the knee strike the shooter will eat on his way in is good sound defense. It extends the attack while I rain elbows, knee strikes, and hammer fists on him. If he gets in deep its the guillotine for him. Yes it is all in one. If I have not answered your questions please eloaborate on exactly what you are not getting about this kata.

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#281432 - 08/26/06 02:47 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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thanks for the responses. That was my only question, and you addressed it well. I plan on training this kata someday, and I'll keep whats been written about it in mind. until I've actually trained it, I can't really comment/inquire further.

sometimes I instigate in order to draw conversation/ideas out of people. good threads usually have a little fire in 'em.

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#281433 - 08/26/06 03:35 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Hi Ed,

If you really have the patience, this google video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3346298601525244862&q=judo shows many naihanchi applications as Mufine Sensei works his techniques.

Of course at many levels all arts intersect.
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#281434 - 08/26/06 07:03 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Edited by ANDY44 (08/26/06 08:17 PM)

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#281435 - 08/26/06 07:14 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
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Edited by ANDY44 (08/26/06 08:45 PM)

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#281436 - 08/26/06 08:06 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Victor Smith]
ANDY44 Offline
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Edited by ANDY44 (08/26/06 08:15 PM)

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#281437 - 08/26/06 10:53 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Andy, you seem like a good guy. I think the whole time I've been posting for 1.5 years, I've never deleted entire posts. There were many post that I regret and have appologized for, but I didn't erase. If there is anything that leaves a bad stink when mixed with MA, it's politics, ego and/or money.

write what you mean, hit the 'continue' button, and then leave it out there. ....unless those 3 posts you deleted was about one of our mother's or something. lol

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#281438 - 08/27/06 04:18 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Morning ED

Naaaaa
wasnt about mothers money politics or anything like that.
Im not in to that kind of stuff. Well money helps.
Ego is used as a driving force to train harder.
I know martial arts guys that have trained for years that would never have pointed out what Victor did and its there on black and white film. Prime examples of how to use the stance. The stance not so much the kata.


Looks like what I worked out with the bunkia was only the surface of the kata.
Needs more study.

And Ed if I think of something and type it out and post it then rethink the matter through and delete it then I would rather do it that way.
I work on instinct. Thought does work but sometimes things occur to me in a different way.
Any how your partly to blame. Your up to your usual thought provoking stuff.
Medulant has already worked a lot of stuff out.

All in all very eductional.

Any how I have a date with my heavy bag.

Ta



Edited by ANDY44 (08/27/06 04:22 AM)

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#281439 - 08/27/06 03:54 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Stormdragon Offline
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The inward kicking done in naihanchi seems great for kicking and stomping the side of the knee while clinching up with the opponent, or to throw them, and in naihanchi 2 (sandan I think) there's a position I use for a grapvine/double fishhook from the first movement and 4th or 5th movement, then some positions that are good for choking, and a sequesnce that can be used to hammerlock the arm, then grab the hair with said arm, rip back, and punch the oppoenent in the face and you finish with a sweep. These are all I've come up with or come across so far.
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#281440 - 08/27/06 06:54 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
oldman Offline
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Posts: 5884
Quote:

Any how I have a date with my heavy bag.





Andy,
You may be a nice guy but we won't put up with any disrespect toward the ladies.

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#281441 - 08/28/06 12:42 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: oldman]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Andy,
You may be a nice guy but we won't put up with any disrespect toward the ladies.


Hi There Oldman





My bag is leather, and filled with sand.
With this I train, with feet and hand
And when I fight, all bruised and cut
My hands still broken, my eyes still shut
In common with love, its much the same
when lovers exist, there is also pain.


@andy



Edited by ANDY44 (08/28/06 01:37 AM)

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#281442 - 08/28/06 01:06 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Stormdragon]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi storm dragon

good

Hows the maki wari training ?


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#281443 - 08/28/06 01:49 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Hey Andy, I just got my new post set in, and I start regular trainign tommorrow. I've been doing lot's of knuckle push ups and hand stretching and my fists have gotten tough and have healed up. I can't wait for my training to really start. Oh and I've been doign lot's of bag work.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#281444 - 08/28/06 07:43 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Stormdragon]
shoshinkan Offline
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Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
does the new post bend? Make sure you don't overload it and 'lock' it up, it must have give.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#281445 - 08/28/06 12:24 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Stormdragon]
ANDY44 Offline
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Posts: 814
Hi Storm

I agree with Jim here.Take it easy and it seems your training is paying off . Good.

Im not realy the expert on working out bunkia from kata. I like to see the technique work out if it will work and if I think it does then drill it.Although I can normaly find things to add or variations.

Go to admit it though Naihanchi gives me head aches.
To many people been messing about with it.

Hows the weight training ? Squats spring to mind when stances are mentioned such as Naihanchi, etc. Flat footed feet wider than shoulder width toes in the correct position squats not the built up heel variety(as in not the heel raised on wood or weights or nothing).

So your hand healed then?
Good


ANDY SAYS
Fist-a-phobia. Is a fear of fists brought on by people who dont train defence.

Recreated by Andy 28-8-06


Andy


Edited by ANDY44 (08/28/06 01:09 PM)

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#281446 - 08/28/06 12:26 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: shoshinkan]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi Jim

The poem I created in response to old man. Didnt some on mention they were thinking of a thread for poems at some time?

This one


My bag is leather, and filled with sand.
With this I train, with feet and hand
And when I fight, all bruised and cut
My hands still broken, my eyes still shut
In common with love, its much the same
when lovers exist, there is also pain.






Thanks

Andy


Edited by ANDY44 (08/28/06 12:32 PM)

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#281447 - 08/28/06 12:41 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Quote:

Hi Jim

The poem I created in response to old man. Didnt some on mention they were thinking of a thread for poems at some time?

This one


My bag is leather, and filled with sand.
With this I train, with feet and hand
And when I fight, all bruised and cut
My hands still broken, my eyes still shut
In common with love, its much the same
when lovers exist, there is also pain.






Thanks

Andy




Great Poem. Im sure most of us here can identify with it.
_________________________
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

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#281448 - 08/28/06 01:35 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Chatan1979]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Thanks


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#281449 - 08/28/06 02:54 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Stormdragon]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
8/19/06:
Quote:

Well, about a week ago I got a little carried away on the makiwara post (hit it too hard) again, and injured my other knuckle (of my good hand). Be very very caqreful working on the post! Now I have to take off a month or 2 from hititng the post, and probably 6 going bareknuckle on the bags to.




8/19/06:

Quote:

I'm pretty certain it's bone damage, it hurts with the slightest pressure, but there's no lacerations to the skin itself. It's on the outer left section of the middle large knuckle of my left hand. It has been this way for a week or two and I accidently made it worse today when I was screwin around on a tree (not hititng hard just sort of tapping it).




8/21/06:

Quote:

I understand, I should've been much more careful and not so impatient to dev elope that kind of power. I'll stay off the post for a few weeks or monthes (at least I can construct a proper one) and be easier on the heavy bag and do more knuckle pushups and stretgching exercises and things. Thanks a lot for the advice.




8/28/06:

Quote:

Hey Andy, I just got my new post set in, and I start regular trainign tommorrow. I've been doing lot's of knuckle push ups and hand stretching and my fists have gotten tough and have healed up. I can't wait for my training to really start. Oh and I've been doign lot's of bag work.




OK, I can certainly respect the veracity with which you attack your training.

However, It's crazy & irresponsible for you to disregard the advice you gave yourself 9 days ago. If you really did damage the bone in your knuckle, you DO need to take it easy on the hand for a while (9 days does not count).

If you don't take care of your body as a child, it will turn on you as an adult. Overworking injured joints/bones (especially in ones teens) can lead to decreased range of motion, bone brittleness, arthritis, etc. This is a FACT.

I'm sorry if this comes across as preachy, but I really like some of your posts & you seem like a young man with alot of drive and energy (attributes that seem to be somewhat lacking in youth nowadays).

If your goal is to one day reach shodan level and beyond, remember that that takes a large amount of MENTAL MATURITY as well as physical skill. Part of MENTAL MATURITY is understanding your body's limits and respecting them.

If you are truly dedicated to your martial arts training, understand that resting your hand for a while will NOT hinder your progress, a few weeks or months here or there when compared to a lifetime of training is nothing.

Please don't be stupid, follow your own advice & take it easy with the hand for a short while (maybe focus on your flexibility, stamina, and lower-body techniques).

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#281450 - 08/28/06 03:21 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: oldman]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
"It does not have to be that static. Theoreticaly your opponant could be in front to the side or behind. That was just one example. An example that was easier to draw that some others."

Great point. It was explained to me by my sensei that some kata movements are performed in their positions (ie: Naihanchi's hook block to the side) for instructional purposes- because they are easier to see/ draw/ explain that way).

We normally learn the motions/ movements to kata before understanding fully what they can mean. After mastering the motions, the real learning begins.

For example, if you interpret the 1st move from Oldman's cartoon as a hook-block, it's much more effective when performed from the front. The hook-block loses much of its power when it crosses your body's center-line (body mechanics), so a hook-block to the side is probably NOT the best way to defend a punch from the side.

By the way, great cartoon (as always). Personally, I like to trap my opponent's arm between my legs when Naihanchi side-stepping, breaking the elbow when stepping through (I like the nasty stuff).

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#281451 - 08/28/06 04:51 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Eternal_Student]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
How do your trap your opponent's arm between your legs? If is arm is between your legs you better sprawl, because he is probably picking you up to slam you on your head.

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#281452 - 08/28/06 05:44 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
My post has just a little bend in it. I've wrapped it with several thick layers of towel that provides plenty of padding it seems, and I'll add more if need be.
My right fist is finen ow, I haven't trained on it hard or regularly in monthes other than knuckle pushups and some occasional bag work. My left hand is the one I hurt recently and I tried working on it today but stopped after around thirty punches, it wasn't hurting much or anything, just some sores opened and I sdont want infections, and I think I want the bone to heal for a month or 2, it seems liek there's a split in the bone itself. My right fist feels great, and I'm having no problems with it whatsoever. I punched the board with minimal (60% max) force well over 100 times with no problems (I wore hand wraps to which helped). My training seems to be coming along well, and I still stretch my hands and fingers alot and massage them and soak them in warm water.
I do need to be much more careful and less aggressive with my training.


Edited by Stormdragon (08/28/06 07:01 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#281453 - 08/28/06 06:13 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: medulanet]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Medulant wrote:

"How do your trap your opponent's arm between your legs? If is arm is between your legs you better sprawl, because he is probably picking you up to slam you on your head.”

I have a leg arm lock from Naihanchi that I really like. The downward block/hook strike to the left side is used against an attacker, straight ahead attacking with a left strike (head works fine). I step off the line 45 degrees, with my right foot, in tight on the opponent, and intercept his left arm with both hands simultaneously (Yes I recognize the kata has no step here. That is added). Both hands, after intercepting on the outside of the arm, push up and to the left, using a circular, soft, interception and trap. Only after they begin the circle to the left, do they transition into the movement found in the kata, with the left hand grabbing the left forearm and turning as it pulls back to chamber, while the right “hook” does an arm bar, directly over the elbow. When I am done with this, my stance and hand locations are exactly as found in the Shotokan version of Tekki shodan. My step was in tight, not out wide, so my weight is over his elbow.

The key to a good initial arm bar is to keep you back straight when starting. Sinking into Naihanchi stance is the done with the trap/armbar. Only when you have a really good armbar can you lean forward slightly. This leaning uses the abdominals, and gravity, to push the ulna (forearm) bone harder on his elbow, while you can lift the wrist upwards.

The right cross over step drives the knee to the ground. You don't use your leg in a kicking motion to do this. You drive your entire body through the knee, using the foot only to catch the knee as you pass through it.

In Shotokan, after this right cross-over step, there is a big counterclockwise swing of the left leg. I use that to circle over the arm, so I wind up making contact with my left hamstring on his elbow. (If you are good, you can catch the back of his head with your heel on the downward motion.) I then drop my weight completely, going right down into a kneeling position (seisa), in really, really close, so the elbow is now under my butt. My knees are spread really wide here so my body weight can be way up high on his arm near his shoulder.

I finish by leaning forward, pulling the wrist up (my hand is behind my butt), to execute the arm bar. At the same time, I use a right ippon ken (index knuckle) to different pressure points. The one at the side of the jawbone, just under the ear is a good one. My forward leaning allows me to do both the armbar and drive down the ippon ken simultaneously.

Would it work in real life, who knows. But I find this is an eye-catching demo technique. And it has great faithfulness to the Shotokan kata movements.

Kakushite

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#281454 - 08/28/06 08:25 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
but I just don't see responding to an incoming attack with a horse stance....unless immediately setting up into a judo-like throw.



HI ED

You were rigth about there being a vast difference between Tekki and the different Naihanchi's. On my part it was a figure of speech



A very simple and natural move
Ok the attacker is kicking with the right leg (Mae Geri)
The defender is in front stance right leg forward(or even just standing naturaly).
by switching to horse stance (moving the left leg to become parallel with the front leg there fore avoiding the kick and grabbing the throat of the attacker with the hand you have one application of the first move in Naihanchi.


My problem with Naihanchi is there are so many different ways of doing the kata depending on the stlyle.Some say it was a tanren kata some say they based their sytem on it.
Who knows? I dont.

I get headaches with this kata.



Matsubayashi Ryu version has a sequence of seemingly arm blocks before the spear hand(if that is what it is) seen in the simpler versions.

From what I can gather kata was created to remember learned techniques. There fore the applications are going to be varied and not strictly adhered to as in the katas application( yes I know im stating the obviouse?



Edited by ANDY44 (08/28/06 08:26 PM)

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#281455 - 08/28/06 10:03 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: kakushiite]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Would it work in real life, who knows. But I find this is an eye-catching demo technique. And it has great faithfulness to the Shotokan kata movements.

Kakushite




Well, that is just my point. I can do or make up anything if my opponent lets me. But how does one trap a person's arm with their legs while standing and apply a joint lock by stepping over? I don't bother too much with stuff I can't do when someone is resisting.

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#281456 - 08/28/06 10:08 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
You're in luck Andy because I know. It is both a tanrenho kata and the foundation of Shorin Ryu. Stick with the Matsubayashi version it is a good one from Tomari and independent of Itosu. It is from Uku Giko. Actually all three Matsubayashi Naihanchi are. If you are practicing a style of karate whose foundation is not Naihanchi then it is probably of Naha te or Gendai Karate.

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#281457 - 08/28/06 10:38 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
I have practiced and graded in shotokan 1st dan years ago.More years ago than I care to remember.I never bothered with any more grades.
I have trained with kyokishin. muay thai and fought full contact(gloved hands and feet) again years ago. Thus the reason for the poem.

What I am trying to train now is jundokan goju ryu/
Problem is where I live it isnt available so I train another asscociataions goju ryu (dojo)
Neither train Naihanchi.
But I have also training parners like myself who are not interested in grades or teaching (not that we would) more just furthering our karate.
Confusing I know but its what I want.

Do you have any bunkia for the Matsubayashi version of Naihanchi ?
If you do I would be realy gratefull for it

Id so could you e mail it ?
Or would you care to discuss it?

Thanks

andy



Edited by ANDY44 (08/28/06 10:41 PM)

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#281458 - 08/29/06 12:13 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Sorry, no video. If you are interested in bunkai oyo I suggest look at Vince Morris's Shotokan. He has a lot of bunkai videos that have striking similarities to some of the bunkai oyo in Matsubayashi. However, Matsubayashi, especially at the advanced levels of application that it seems you are seeking is dependent on proper form and power generation. Its difficult to truly learn the application of the kata of Matsubayashi without direct instruction. I personally make no video and I know of no one who does make a video of Matsubayashi's advanced principles and kata applications.

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#281459 - 08/29/06 05:22 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
Victor Smith Offline
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Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

"Do you have any bunkia for the Matsubayashi version of Naihanchi ?"

Go to
http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate/index.htm#
and play the clips "Description" and "Secret".

This Naifanchi is a descendent of the Matsubayshi Ryu.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#281460 - 08/29/06 10:58 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi Medulant

I have just watched the vidio posted by Victor.
The method of power generation you decribe I am familure with. All my techniques are trained for speed and power.


Yes I would benefit greatly by working with some one at an advanced level regards kata/ power generation as per the vidio.

I will have a look around this country (uk) and see if there is any body.

Thanks

Andy


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#281461 - 08/29/06 11:02 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Thanks victor

You are an educator supreme.
If have any more vidios like this please post them?
The amount of stuff you have posted is going to keep me going for a while.

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#281462 - 08/29/06 11:10 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Littlpond Offline
Member

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 46
Quote:

I like the 'on a boat' and 'guarding a castle with your back to a wall' stories better.

I'm trying to picture how many times fighting on a beam skill comes in handy. 2nd story battle in the rafters? fallen log river crossing encounters? or perhaps defending yourself when just minding your own business strolling on a tree branch....

someone doing 2-person naihanchi bunkai on a balance beam...now THERE'S a video I'd like to see!





you are being situation specific in your interpertation of my post. YOu miss the point. I like the idea someone mentioned about "molding the clay" This kata is very good for that. The clay in this instance is more about the gray matter between the ears then physical atributes or skill sets. I refrain from trying to find specific movements in the kata that fit my preconcieved ideas. I stand by my post that one of the real values of the kata is performing it on a beam. Seeing how everyone is so creative in there interpertation of bunkai you would think that one would have an open mind and try it before disregarding it out of hand because it didnt occure to you. performing on a beam requires focus, percision and confidence. It is one thing to set powerfully into a stance on the ground. It is something all together different when you explode into a stance on the beam. Miss and you fall, this added component of fear and self doubt is a valuable training tool. Academic study of the multitude of interperations of a movement has little practical value beyound demonstrating your creativity and imagination.

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#281463 - 08/29/06 11:10 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

As I understand it this is part of a larger video, which that site is slowly posting in pieces. They list themselves as Matsubayshi Ryu, but they are a focsued group that also uses the name Kashiba Juku, so their practices might be a little different from the rest of Matsubayshi Ryu.

But it's the closest I know of and is quite interesting.

But everything at OkinawaBBTV is intersting too.

I continue to be amazed at how much information is becoming available, if you know how to seek it.
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#281464 - 08/29/06 11:25 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Littlpond]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Academic study of the multitude of interperations of a movement has little practical value beyound demonstrating your creativity and imagination.


Hi there

Very true.
But we(I) dont just have an academic interest/use.
Once the correct bunkia is found then I use it.
In a practical way.
As in in a self defence there fore fighting way

Academic study becomes practical becomes drilled becomes effective technique which is used as and when required in a self defence scenario.

As well as giving me pleasure when the technique becomes mine.

thanks


Ous!



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#281465 - 08/29/06 11:29 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: medulanet]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
In Oldman's cartoon (I wish I could draw these, because it's very difficult to explain techniques without pictures), in panel #4, your opponent is laying face down, with his arm extended straight up and behind his back.

In panel #5, our "hero" sidesteps in Naihanchi dachi and drags his opponent across the floor. What I was referring to was to instead cross your rear leg around your opponent's extended arm, trapping it between your legs. (By pulling your opponent's extended arm to your hip and leaning into your stance, you can break that extended arm (or hold him in that p[osition in case you need to reassess your surroundings & possibly deal with additional attackers.
- This looks like Oldman's panel #5, except opponent's outstretched arm is between our hero's legs (behind his front leg's knee, and in front of his back leg's knee)

Obviously I need to work on my artwork to better explain myself!!!


Edited by Eternal_Student (08/29/06 11:39 AM)

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#281466 - 08/29/06 05:02 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes, they are close to Nagamine's Matsubayashi. Basically it became a trend for Nagamine's senior students to leave and create their own systems. Most change small things in the kata execution and then focus on one aspect of Nagamine's teachings and base their system on it. Kishaba was a student of Seigi Nakamura, one of Nagmaine's senior students, and Kishaba's style was based on many of the things Nakamura taught him. Nakamura possessed a very developed koshi and had amazing gamaku. The Kishaba guys focus on usage of the koshi. The interesting thing is that Nakamura's koshi was so developed that his hip movement was hardly noticeable, but his power generated was incredible. It seems the Kishaba guys exaggerate the hip movement to develop the power Nakamura had to eventually reduce it so that it is hardly noticeable. However, this is exactly what I mean about the complexities. Most people view the Kishaba guys and assume that the end result is this exaggerated hip movement, which it is not. I personally like the Matsubayashi that Nagamine developed because you can find most things that are trained in the offshoot systems, plus a little more. That's why I try to train with all of the Senior Okinawans when they come to the states. They each have a piece of the puzzle, and I want the whole thing. In Matsubayashi there are three kata which are the basis of what we do, fukyugata ichi, naihanchi shodan, and kusanku. If you look at the video Shinzato was relating techniques in fukyugata ichi to naihanchi. Again there is a very specific methodology to training Matsubayashi Ryu. There is a reason for each kata being trained, the order in which they are trained, and the method by which they are trained. Naihanchi is a kata that is at the center. It is the bridge to advanced execution of technique and application.

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#281467 - 08/29/06 10:17 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Littlpond]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Littlepond:

<<I have been taught this is a kata to train on a balance beam.

Please confirm, you practice & APPLY from that beam?
I've heard many explain it in that manner, but none who train/practice that way.... yet anyway.

With or without a beam, I can isolate and explore my mechanics & positionings of the lower body, and/or upper. Why do I need the beam for anything?

Jeff

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#281468 - 08/30/06 09:00 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Littlpond Offline
Member

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 46
Quote:

Hello Littlepond:

<<I have been taught this is a kata to train on a balance beam.

Please confirm, you practice & APPLY from that beam?
I've heard many explain it in that manner, but none who train/practice that way.... yet anyway.

With or without a beam, I can isolate and explore my mechanics & positionings of the lower body, and/or upper. Why do I need the beam for anything?

Jeff




Again you are stuck on specific technique, physical machanics. I fully agree that working bunkai and application is important and there is plenty to learn from Naihanci. There is more that can be gleaned from the kata. there is another very benificial aspect to it is all I am trying to say. I do practice and APPLY my mind to concentrating and on moving powerfully throught the moves. Trying to not allow the nagging fear of falling (pain) to distract me from performing the kata with purpose and intent. I look at this fear as akin or approaching the fear one experiences during a confrontation. I believe the more familiar one is with this fear the more accustomed one becomes in operating without hesitation, with focus and intent. it is the difference in mind set between performing the kata and living it. It is "living" it under adverse conditions that mimic the strain and stress of actual confrontation is where the kata has real value to me. You really dont need the beam for anything but your believing in it or not really has no baring on validatity of the training method.

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#281469 - 08/30/06 11:09 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Jeff,

Use of a balance beam (either low on the floor or high) is for subsidiary training benefits. While not a common practice it and other assorted practices may be done.

The use of the balance beam, which does not hold the entire foot, helps build a different balance ability from that of doing in on the floor. Such skills are very long term ones, but they can be useful to help develop students with advanced potential.

All students are not created equal, and some need advanced training to push themselves to appropriately higher levels of ability that others cannot reach.

The use of a balance beam as one portion of naifanchi training is just that, something special.

At times I've taken trees down on my own property and have cut the trunks into sections. Then I've placed 5 one foot pieces side by side (only roughly level cuts), and worked naifahnchi on them. It's interesting working on balance on uneven surfaces. It really does make you work on your internal balance, and does transfer into many naifhanchi applicaption potential usages.

What such discussions present is there are more things being done than most of us imagine, if anyone talks about them.

For the record, these are only occasional practices. For most of my students there is little need to use the balance beam, and my log sections rot to dust within a year so they are used when appropriate.

And we haven't gotten into my naifanchi training practices with turns in the kata (from a friend in Shimabuku Ezio lineage Shorin) or my teenager niafanchi he**, naifanchi done with jumping turning crescent kicks.

Best wishes training,
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#281470 - 08/30/06 04:41 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
lilpond's post:
Quote:

I have been taught this is a kata to train on a balance beam. It does contain a ton of variations in bunki, I have seen lots of varitations in interpertation. However I feel the true streght of the kata comes from performing it on a 6 to 8 inch wide beam. the higher off the ground the better. It is one thing to do it on the ground with focus and power. It is another thing completely to do it 5 feet up. I hope this helps explain the lateral movements.





just to be clear... the above quoted point was suggesting naihanchi was designed for balance beam training. thats the part that is laughable - We used to train sanchin in the snow, but it doesn't make it a kata designed to stay warm in the winter.

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#281471 - 08/30/06 07:10 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:

- We used to train sanchin in the snow, but it doesn't make it a kata designed to stay warm in the winter.




HI ED

Sanchen in the snow means sun glasses. Looks cool with a white gi.Good job you werent grappling.Get stuck in the deep snow and no body would see you.




Any how it would seem that my first observations about
Naihanchi kata being trained using different stances were correct. Nice application of power being taught.

If some one is going to train naihanchi it might better to train all the Pinans first.

Thanks


Edited by ANDY44 (08/30/06 11:58 PM)

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#281472 - 08/30/06 09:10 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
Victor Smith Offline
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Andy,

Apparently in some Shorin lineages starting beginners with the Naifanchi kata is much older than the existence of the Pinan Kata. When Funakoshi Ginchin started training he began wit the 3 Naifanchi kata if I remember his autobiography correctly and spent 3 years on each one.

In his day there were no Pinan kata.
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#281473 - 08/30/06 09:14 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
ANDY44 Offline
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Hi Victor
I think that might be correct victor then it would have been Naihanchi first.(Im thinking out loud here)
Then they applied the principles to kushanku and other katas
But i still say pinans need to be trained as well as naihanchi.

Victor Im looking for any online vidios of the basic kata
Taikyoku Mawashi Uke (Ichi) if you know where to find them

Thanks

Andy





Edited by ANDY44 (08/31/06 01:07 AM)

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#281474 - 08/30/06 09:35 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
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what are 'goju mawashi' katas (which you deleted reference to in your post)? and what does that have to do with Naihanchi?

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#281475 - 08/30/06 09:47 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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I will come back to you on that one.
Wrong description/name of the katas I want


Any how Ed
Something has occured to me.
You discuss the pinans
Then you discuss the cat stance
then you discuss Naihanchi

What I asked before you must have know the connection?


Edited by ANDY44 (08/30/06 09:50 PM)

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#281476 - 08/30/06 10:00 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
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connections can be found in everything. I can show how Sanchin dynamics can be used for waterskiing and chopping wood.

I'm sorry andy, but I get the sense you are making things up as you reply, trying to give 'right answers' as oppossed to relaying your experience. have you trained Kusanku already? I understand this is often the most advanced kata in many shorin systems.

no need to reply/retaliate, and I appologize for shifting off-topic. I'm not trying to embarrass, just enjoy reading solid experienced info. I am honestly interested in Naihanchi, but don't plan training it yet.

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#281477 - 08/30/06 10:08 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Smith-san:

I do not question the subsidary benefits in the least of alternate surface areas, nor drills designed to isolate or enhanse perception, awareness/usage of assorted bodily connections by such subsidary methods.

My bias exists with this explaination (or more correctly this type of explaination) being the primary-fundamental function of the mechanics of the form.

It smacks of ~myth~ this type of explaination (ie back to a wall, on a boat, etc., etc.) of a scale I have difficulty verbalizing... Yet despite my valueless skepticism, it still persists. It (board balancing) is hard to swallow as the primary/fundamental reason by which to use these mechanics, principles, movements...

<<if anyone talks about them...

True... and though certainly not X's original proposal to explain the ideas, whispers of this kata... I would love to hear/know of others who practice the more troublesome (ie respectfully "seemingly absurd") explainations of this form. Better yet, any who are told it (Neihanchi kata) is specifically for usage on a boat, in the rice paddies, back to the wall, so forth.

I will be amazed if the practice was ever spoken of in those "locals"... further back than the American WW2 soldier.

<<And we haven't gotten into my naifanchi training practices with turns in the kata (from a friend in Shimabuku Ezio lineage Shorin)

More please...... turns, the full blown 180 degree variety? Now that I'd love to see...

<<or my teenager niafanchi he**, naifanchi done with jumping turning crescent kicks.

Aside from tiring them out, how did you draw crescent... no I'm sorry JUMPING & TURNING crescent kicks from the Okinawan Neihanchi form ???

Best wishes training...

And you as well my friend
Jeff

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#281478 - 08/30/06 10:46 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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connections can be found in everything. I can show how Sanchin dynamics can be used for waterskiing and chopping wood.

Quote:


I'm sorry andy, but I get the sense you are making things up as you reply, trying to give 'right answers' as oppossed to relaying your experience. have you trained Kusanku already? I understand this is often the most advanced kata in many shorin systems.

no need to reply/retaliate, and I appologize for shifting off-topic. I'm not trying to embarrass, just enjoy reading solid experienced info. I am honestly interested in Naihanchi, but don't plan training it yet.





Hi Ed. Most of the above your totlay wrong about.

Its Ok I am assuming things that have turned out to be not what I thought. Regards this lineage of kata I am studying them further in depth and assumed that you knew about them.

I practiced them years ago with out much thought(including kushanku) to further power generation or greater application.
So in effect I am re studying them.Looks like I will have to partly change them physicaly.Or better said how I physicaly practice them.
So looks like I miss interpreted what you typed in the past
I assumed you knew them?
Strange coincidence though.

well good luck Ed

As regards me editing stuff I do that quite often particuler when Im studying.

Try not to answer to quickly.The edit expiry is for a couple of hours and as I am studying and communicating with people online I tend to write on the forum


Thanks Andy







.


Edited by ANDY44 (08/31/06 12:15 AM)

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#281479 - 08/30/06 11:21 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
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my appologies andy, I'm a little too rough around the edges with my words sometimes.

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#281480 - 08/31/06 12:53 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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No need to be miss understandings happen all the time

Ous


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#281481 - 08/31/06 05:39 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Victor Smith Offline
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Hi Jeff,

Agreed.

You know it's really intersting where the rice paddy concept came from as I understand Okinawa doesn't have them?

Of course the modern equivalent would be using naifanchi stepping to fight in a rebar field for a constructoin floor pour. While it would be dumb to fight there, you could make a logical case for using naifanchi stepping to move between the rebar.......nah too fetched....... but I'll start teaching that to the kids anyway, a good story is worth...

When I trained in Carl Long's school (Shorin Honda Katsu) in long ago days, he used to do some interesting training with naifanchi. One was to see how quickly you could execute the entire kata, with each move distinct... sort of naifanchi racing. Some how I remember 9 or 10 seconds. Of course it just highlites that kata training can be done at various speeds, but if you want to have an interesting time time yourself, or race a friend.

He also showed how to practice the kata with turns. When you foor step across the other foot (each time), immediately pivot 180 degrees and continue the kata. Its very interesting, you're almost doing the kata in place, and opens up some new application potential, imo.

I began the naifanchi with jumping spinning crescent kicks when I got a group of young people with too much excess energy (read brown belts). After the low block they perform a jump spinning crescent kick (turning to the rear) land and continue the kata, and it's done for both sides. (Old man equivalent, use a steping turning crescent kick for the same effect.)

From my part it was both 'work' but also a precursor for later training in the chinese form 'lung le kuen' where they spiral to the floor in a double block, and then uncoil with a jump spinning crescent kick from the floor.

It has a number of interesting potentials. For one thing nobody anyplace thinks of naifanchi with jumping spinning crescent kicks, so you're pushing your students potential beyond what others expect in Isshinryu.

But more so it really irritates the true naifanchi adepts. That wasn't why I worked it up, but if it works....

IMO, naifanchi has it's uses but I hardly consider its full potential the end of of what my karate will represent. In that sense it's not one wit better than any other kata, again imo. But keeping one's boundries flexible only helps.
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#281482 - 09/01/06 12:25 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Stormdragon]
oldman Offline
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#281483 - 09/08/06 08:14 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
ANDY44 Offline
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Quote:

Andy,

Apparently in some Shorin lineages starting beginners with the Naifanchi kata is much older than the existence of the Pinan Kata. When Funakoshi Ginchin started training he began wit the 3 Naifanchi kata if I remember his autobiography correctly and spent 3 years on each one.

In his day there were no Pinan kata.





Hi Victor
Ok so many days/weeks in to kata study.
Pinan kata/methods are combined with Naihanchi kata/methods
Kushanku kata( along with other katas)has techniques/methods that are in the pinans .

Its one big learning curve.
Put them all together and we lose this silly intepretation of Naihanchi(paddy field along a wall c*** etc)



Edited by ANDY44 (09/08/06 08:15 AM)

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#281484 - 09/08/06 08:16 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
ANDY44 Offline
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Edited by ANDY44 (09/08/06 08:16 AM)

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#281485 - 09/08/06 08:43 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
Victor Smith Offline
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Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

I've never seen those stories as worthless. I really think they were beginner explanations, a way to try and give a beginner a visual image to help their performance.

It's wrong to belive beginners can actually apply karate technique. A great deal of the technique in kata, even with years of practice, often eludes a student when they begin the conditing to use it.

Some applications are subtle and take great faith to learn how to use them. I've had students with many years of practice be unable of using a technique I've shown them many times and with multiple exlanations how to do it.

Karate was never designed to make it work instantly, and part of its lifetime study is how applicationp potential is revealed when you really get advanced, with more to come.

I don't even begin students study of kata application potential until they have quite a few years in technique performance of that kata behind them.

The 'stories' are one useful tool to help train beginners.

They're not the whole story, but any tool that works is fine.
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#281486 - 09/08/06 09:01 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
ANDY44 Offline
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Ok Victor I can see your point.I wasnt meaning you in that remark it just seems that naihanchi wrongly seems to get ridiculed.(seems that way to me) The good thing is my brain is beggining to "RE" see things as regards kata and stances etc.
slowly its getting there.

What might be worth considering is in a lot of karate here (UK) the kata was a means to get a grading and some silly bunkia was produced. Some good bunkai was also produced by re engineering but I am looking at the study of kata from the traditional point of view. Grass roots so to speak.
Okinanwa and China?

Anyhow before I go discussing what I think I know I will go in to the study in more detail.I have been doing karate on and off for years. Im 53 and started when I was 16.
I have been a first dan for about 20 years.
This has been my sort of way of doing karate

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7451855325156546591&q=Kyokushin

World apart from what I am
doing now. But I might be going back to it( and please im not to old) lactic acid is a problem but i can still function.They allow any style to compete providing the person signs a disclaimer in case some young stud is to fast and clever for people like me and I end up in sleep land.

Who knows and believe it or not I can see some of the answers in Trad okinawan karate to these guys but as I said I am saying "not a lot" untill I get where I want to

I will just plod on so to speak

So Victor your excellent education methods(and Eds thougth provoking/ educational methods and medulants input) on here are being put to use but not being an academic takes people like me a bit longer before things sink in.


Keep posting Victor you come into the leage of prime educator par excellence wether you know it or not.

OUS!




Edited by ANDY44 (09/08/06 09:33 AM)

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#281487 - 09/08/06 01:17 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Andy,

I don't know about re-engineering. As no kata applications (Beyond beginners spatial ones) were studied when I began, each one really is a new discovery of the technique application potential. Perhaps just words.

Some of the kata stories have other intended lessons, such as night fighting to make the student think about low level lighting and self defense. Or how to use techniques on a bride or a narrow place. Those stories represent a binding to older traditions, not exclusively demonstrating what something had to be.

I think they were useful tools back when instruction was one on one.

The kyo... kumite you shared is very similar to dojo kumite in Isshinryu when I began. We did not intentionally strike below the belt (but mistakes always happened), and we tended to block the head much more than shown in the clip. A function of different answers. But a lot of hard body contact kumite.

Arthritis issues cost me that over 20 years ago. I still do, but not what I did.

There are other answers that just that kumite, ones more involved, more complex skill building drills, etc. It's also inappropriate for the youth program I teach.

Still it has it's place in the program for those that need it.

I do blush at your charaterization of my teaching ability.

I just work with a student one on one, step by step and they do the rest.
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#281488 - 09/08/06 02:30 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
ANDY44 Offline
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The re engineering part. Well I have seen some good self defence techniques supposedly from kata.
Either way they were good techniques.
The vidios you posted some time ago on okinawan TV
Is there any more? How would I know if they are putting more on the web?

Thanks

Andy


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#281489 - 09/08/06 02:48 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: oldman]
WuXing Offline
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Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
What are these blurry photographs of, oldman? A bigfoot sighting? Is this bigfoot practicing naihanchi? Are you trying to say naihanchi applications are in the same class as bigfoot sightings?


I think bigfoot is real.

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#281490 - 09/08/06 03:28 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

OkinawaBBTV is a live site for Okinawan's showing what's happening, and preserving various arts. It gets updated regularily (but I don't know what the schedule is so I check back every week.

They have been adding karate material which was taken from a movie about the Matsubayshi/Kashiba Juku teachings, which is where the Naifanchi material came from.

There is so much on www.OkinawaBBTV.com that you can spend hours watching all of it, and it keeps growing.

Good luck,
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#281491 - 09/08/06 06:43 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: WuXing]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
No. I was saying even bigfoot uses Naihanchi and doesnt know it.

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#281492 - 05/15/07 01:26 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: oldman]
Stormdragon Offline
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Loc: Salem, OR
Is the naihanchi Choki Motobu and Funakoshi were so thoroughly trained in and experienced with just Naihanchi shodan or all 3?
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#281493 - 05/15/07 10:47 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Stormdragon]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
To my best knowledge, Funakoshi Ginchin from his first book in 1922, listed all 3 naifanchi/tekki kata in his art.

From Funakoshi's autobiography, his original instructor spent about his first 10 years of training just on those 3 kata.

Motobu Chokoi's son's video of his father shows both Niafanchi shodan and nidan. Motobu did document some of his art in several books and Naifanchi is featured promently in them.

There are similarities and differences in their arts.
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#281494 - 05/16/07 02:19 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Stormdragon Offline
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Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
So Motobu didn't jsut work so hard on naihanchi sho|?
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