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#281469 - 08/30/06 11:09 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Jeff,

Use of a balance beam (either low on the floor or high) is for subsidiary training benefits. While not a common practice it and other assorted practices may be done.

The use of the balance beam, which does not hold the entire foot, helps build a different balance ability from that of doing in on the floor. Such skills are very long term ones, but they can be useful to help develop students with advanced potential.

All students are not created equal, and some need advanced training to push themselves to appropriately higher levels of ability that others cannot reach.

The use of a balance beam as one portion of naifanchi training is just that, something special.

At times I've taken trees down on my own property and have cut the trunks into sections. Then I've placed 5 one foot pieces side by side (only roughly level cuts), and worked naifahnchi on them. It's interesting working on balance on uneven surfaces. It really does make you work on your internal balance, and does transfer into many naifhanchi applicaption potential usages.

What such discussions present is there are more things being done than most of us imagine, if anyone talks about them.

For the record, these are only occasional practices. For most of my students there is little need to use the balance beam, and my log sections rot to dust within a year so they are used when appropriate.

And we haven't gotten into my naifanchi training practices with turns in the kata (from a friend in Shimabuku Ezio lineage Shorin) or my teenager niafanchi he**, naifanchi done with jumping turning crescent kicks.

Best wishes training,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#281470 - 08/30/06 04:41 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
lilpond's post:
Quote:

I have been taught this is a kata to train on a balance beam. It does contain a ton of variations in bunki, I have seen lots of varitations in interpertation. However I feel the true streght of the kata comes from performing it on a 6 to 8 inch wide beam. the higher off the ground the better. It is one thing to do it on the ground with focus and power. It is another thing completely to do it 5 feet up. I hope this helps explain the lateral movements.





just to be clear... the above quoted point was suggesting naihanchi was designed for balance beam training. thats the part that is laughable - We used to train sanchin in the snow, but it doesn't make it a kata designed to stay warm in the winter.

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#281471 - 08/30/06 07:10 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

- We used to train sanchin in the snow, but it doesn't make it a kata designed to stay warm in the winter.




HI ED

Sanchen in the snow means sun glasses. Looks cool with a white gi.Good job you werent grappling.Get stuck in the deep snow and no body would see you.




Any how it would seem that my first observations about
Naihanchi kata being trained using different stances were correct. Nice application of power being taught.

If some one is going to train naihanchi it might better to train all the Pinans first.

Thanks


Edited by ANDY44 (08/30/06 11:58 PM)

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#281472 - 08/30/06 09:10 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

Apparently in some Shorin lineages starting beginners with the Naifanchi kata is much older than the existence of the Pinan Kata. When Funakoshi Ginchin started training he began wit the 3 Naifanchi kata if I remember his autobiography correctly and spent 3 years on each one.

In his day there were no Pinan kata.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#281473 - 08/30/06 09:14 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi Victor
I think that might be correct victor then it would have been Naihanchi first.(Im thinking out loud here)
Then they applied the principles to kushanku and other katas
But i still say pinans need to be trained as well as naihanchi.

Victor Im looking for any online vidios of the basic kata
Taikyoku Mawashi Uke (Ichi) if you know where to find them

Thanks

Andy





Edited by ANDY44 (08/31/06 01:07 AM)

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#281474 - 08/30/06 09:35 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
what are 'goju mawashi' katas (which you deleted reference to in your post)? and what does that have to do with Naihanchi?

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#281475 - 08/30/06 09:47 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814


I will come back to you on that one.
Wrong description/name of the katas I want


Any how Ed
Something has occured to me.
You discuss the pinans
Then you discuss the cat stance
then you discuss Naihanchi

What I asked before you must have know the connection?


Edited by ANDY44 (08/30/06 09:50 PM)

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#281476 - 08/30/06 10:00 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
connections can be found in everything. I can show how Sanchin dynamics can be used for waterskiing and chopping wood.

I'm sorry andy, but I get the sense you are making things up as you reply, trying to give 'right answers' as oppossed to relaying your experience. have you trained Kusanku already? I understand this is often the most advanced kata in many shorin systems.

no need to reply/retaliate, and I appologize for shifting off-topic. I'm not trying to embarrass, just enjoy reading solid experienced info. I am honestly interested in Naihanchi, but don't plan training it yet.

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#281477 - 08/30/06 10:08 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Smith-san:

I do not question the subsidary benefits in the least of alternate surface areas, nor drills designed to isolate or enhanse perception, awareness/usage of assorted bodily connections by such subsidary methods.

My bias exists with this explaination (or more correctly this type of explaination) being the primary-fundamental function of the mechanics of the form.

It smacks of ~myth~ this type of explaination (ie back to a wall, on a boat, etc., etc.) of a scale I have difficulty verbalizing... Yet despite my valueless skepticism, it still persists. It (board balancing) is hard to swallow as the primary/fundamental reason by which to use these mechanics, principles, movements...

<<if anyone talks about them...

True... and though certainly not X's original proposal to explain the ideas, whispers of this kata... I would love to hear/know of others who practice the more troublesome (ie respectfully "seemingly absurd") explainations of this form. Better yet, any who are told it (Neihanchi kata) is specifically for usage on a boat, in the rice paddies, back to the wall, so forth.

I will be amazed if the practice was ever spoken of in those "locals"... further back than the American WW2 soldier.

<<And we haven't gotten into my naifanchi training practices with turns in the kata (from a friend in Shimabuku Ezio lineage Shorin)

More please...... turns, the full blown 180 degree variety? Now that I'd love to see...

<<or my teenager niafanchi he**, naifanchi done with jumping turning crescent kicks.

Aside from tiring them out, how did you draw crescent... no I'm sorry JUMPING & TURNING crescent kicks from the Okinawan Neihanchi form ???

Best wishes training...

And you as well my friend
Jeff

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#281478 - 08/30/06 10:46 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
connections can be found in everything. I can show how Sanchin dynamics can be used for waterskiing and chopping wood.

Quote:


I'm sorry andy, but I get the sense you are making things up as you reply, trying to give 'right answers' as oppossed to relaying your experience. have you trained Kusanku already? I understand this is often the most advanced kata in many shorin systems.

no need to reply/retaliate, and I appologize for shifting off-topic. I'm not trying to embarrass, just enjoy reading solid experienced info. I am honestly interested in Naihanchi, but don't plan training it yet.





Hi Ed. Most of the above your totlay wrong about.

Its Ok I am assuming things that have turned out to be not what I thought. Regards this lineage of kata I am studying them further in depth and assumed that you knew about them.

I practiced them years ago with out much thought(including kushanku) to further power generation or greater application.
So in effect I am re studying them.Looks like I will have to partly change them physicaly.Or better said how I physicaly practice them.
So looks like I miss interpreted what you typed in the past
I assumed you knew them?
Strange coincidence though.

well good luck Ed

As regards me editing stuff I do that quite often particuler when Im studying.

Try not to answer to quickly.The edit expiry is for a couple of hours and as I am studying and communicating with people online I tend to write on the forum


Thanks Andy







.


Edited by ANDY44 (08/31/06 12:15 AM)

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