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#281459 - 08/29/06 05:22 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

"Do you have any bunkia for the Matsubayashi version of Naihanchi ?"

Go to
http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/karate/index.htm#
and play the clips "Description" and "Secret".

This Naifanchi is a descendent of the Matsubayshi Ryu.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#281460 - 08/29/06 10:58 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi Medulant

I have just watched the vidio posted by Victor.
The method of power generation you decribe I am familure with. All my techniques are trained for speed and power.


Yes I would benefit greatly by working with some one at an advanced level regards kata/ power generation as per the vidio.

I will have a look around this country (uk) and see if there is any body.

Thanks

Andy


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#281461 - 08/29/06 11:02 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Thanks victor

You are an educator supreme.
If have any more vidios like this please post them?
The amount of stuff you have posted is going to keep me going for a while.

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#281462 - 08/29/06 11:10 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Littlpond Offline
Member

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 46
Quote:

I like the 'on a boat' and 'guarding a castle with your back to a wall' stories better.

I'm trying to picture how many times fighting on a beam skill comes in handy. 2nd story battle in the rafters? fallen log river crossing encounters? or perhaps defending yourself when just minding your own business strolling on a tree branch....

someone doing 2-person naihanchi bunkai on a balance beam...now THERE'S a video I'd like to see!





you are being situation specific in your interpertation of my post. YOu miss the point. I like the idea someone mentioned about "molding the clay" This kata is very good for that. The clay in this instance is more about the gray matter between the ears then physical atributes or skill sets. I refrain from trying to find specific movements in the kata that fit my preconcieved ideas. I stand by my post that one of the real values of the kata is performing it on a beam. Seeing how everyone is so creative in there interpertation of bunkai you would think that one would have an open mind and try it before disregarding it out of hand because it didnt occure to you. performing on a beam requires focus, percision and confidence. It is one thing to set powerfully into a stance on the ground. It is something all together different when you explode into a stance on the beam. Miss and you fall, this added component of fear and self doubt is a valuable training tool. Academic study of the multitude of interperations of a movement has little practical value beyound demonstrating your creativity and imagination.

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#281463 - 08/29/06 11:10 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

As I understand it this is part of a larger video, which that site is slowly posting in pieces. They list themselves as Matsubayshi Ryu, but they are a focsued group that also uses the name Kashiba Juku, so their practices might be a little different from the rest of Matsubayshi Ryu.

But it's the closest I know of and is quite interesting.

But everything at OkinawaBBTV is intersting too.

I continue to be amazed at how much information is becoming available, if you know how to seek it.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#281464 - 08/29/06 11:25 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Littlpond]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Academic study of the multitude of interperations of a movement has little practical value beyound demonstrating your creativity and imagination.


Hi there

Very true.
But we(I) dont just have an academic interest/use.
Once the correct bunkia is found then I use it.
In a practical way.
As in in a self defence there fore fighting way

Academic study becomes practical becomes drilled becomes effective technique which is used as and when required in a self defence scenario.

As well as giving me pleasure when the technique becomes mine.

thanks


Ous!



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#281465 - 08/29/06 11:29 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: medulanet]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
In Oldman's cartoon (I wish I could draw these, because it's very difficult to explain techniques without pictures), in panel #4, your opponent is laying face down, with his arm extended straight up and behind his back.

In panel #5, our "hero" sidesteps in Naihanchi dachi and drags his opponent across the floor. What I was referring to was to instead cross your rear leg around your opponent's extended arm, trapping it between your legs. (By pulling your opponent's extended arm to your hip and leaning into your stance, you can break that extended arm (or hold him in that p[osition in case you need to reassess your surroundings & possibly deal with additional attackers.
- This looks like Oldman's panel #5, except opponent's outstretched arm is between our hero's legs (behind his front leg's knee, and in front of his back leg's knee)

Obviously I need to work on my artwork to better explain myself!!!


Edited by Eternal_Student (08/29/06 11:39 AM)

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#281466 - 08/29/06 05:02 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes, they are close to Nagamine's Matsubayashi. Basically it became a trend for Nagamine's senior students to leave and create their own systems. Most change small things in the kata execution and then focus on one aspect of Nagamine's teachings and base their system on it. Kishaba was a student of Seigi Nakamura, one of Nagmaine's senior students, and Kishaba's style was based on many of the things Nakamura taught him. Nakamura possessed a very developed koshi and had amazing gamaku. The Kishaba guys focus on usage of the koshi. The interesting thing is that Nakamura's koshi was so developed that his hip movement was hardly noticeable, but his power generated was incredible. It seems the Kishaba guys exaggerate the hip movement to develop the power Nakamura had to eventually reduce it so that it is hardly noticeable. However, this is exactly what I mean about the complexities. Most people view the Kishaba guys and assume that the end result is this exaggerated hip movement, which it is not. I personally like the Matsubayashi that Nagamine developed because you can find most things that are trained in the offshoot systems, plus a little more. That's why I try to train with all of the Senior Okinawans when they come to the states. They each have a piece of the puzzle, and I want the whole thing. In Matsubayashi there are three kata which are the basis of what we do, fukyugata ichi, naihanchi shodan, and kusanku. If you look at the video Shinzato was relating techniques in fukyugata ichi to naihanchi. Again there is a very specific methodology to training Matsubayashi Ryu. There is a reason for each kata being trained, the order in which they are trained, and the method by which they are trained. Naihanchi is a kata that is at the center. It is the bridge to advanced execution of technique and application.

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#281467 - 08/29/06 10:17 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Littlpond]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Littlepond:

<<I have been taught this is a kata to train on a balance beam.

Please confirm, you practice & APPLY from that beam?
I've heard many explain it in that manner, but none who train/practice that way.... yet anyway.

With or without a beam, I can isolate and explore my mechanics & positionings of the lower body, and/or upper. Why do I need the beam for anything?

Jeff

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#281468 - 08/30/06 09:00 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ronin1966]
Littlpond Offline
Member

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 46
Quote:

Hello Littlepond:

<<I have been taught this is a kata to train on a balance beam.

Please confirm, you practice & APPLY from that beam?
I've heard many explain it in that manner, but none who train/practice that way.... yet anyway.

With or without a beam, I can isolate and explore my mechanics & positionings of the lower body, and/or upper. Why do I need the beam for anything?

Jeff




Again you are stuck on specific technique, physical machanics. I fully agree that working bunkai and application is important and there is plenty to learn from Naihanci. There is more that can be gleaned from the kata. there is another very benificial aspect to it is all I am trying to say. I do practice and APPLY my mind to concentrating and on moving powerfully throught the moves. Trying to not allow the nagging fear of falling (pain) to distract me from performing the kata with purpose and intent. I look at this fear as akin or approaching the fear one experiences during a confrontation. I believe the more familiar one is with this fear the more accustomed one becomes in operating without hesitation, with focus and intent. it is the difference in mind set between performing the kata and living it. It is "living" it under adverse conditions that mimic the strain and stress of actual confrontation is where the kata has real value to me. You really dont need the beam for anything but your believing in it or not really has no baring on validatity of the training method.

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