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#281449 - 08/28/06 02:54 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Stormdragon]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
8/19/06:
Quote:

Well, about a week ago I got a little carried away on the makiwara post (hit it too hard) again, and injured my other knuckle (of my good hand). Be very very caqreful working on the post! Now I have to take off a month or 2 from hititng the post, and probably 6 going bareknuckle on the bags to.




8/19/06:

Quote:

I'm pretty certain it's bone damage, it hurts with the slightest pressure, but there's no lacerations to the skin itself. It's on the outer left section of the middle large knuckle of my left hand. It has been this way for a week or two and I accidently made it worse today when I was screwin around on a tree (not hititng hard just sort of tapping it).




8/21/06:

Quote:

I understand, I should've been much more careful and not so impatient to dev elope that kind of power. I'll stay off the post for a few weeks or monthes (at least I can construct a proper one) and be easier on the heavy bag and do more knuckle pushups and stretgching exercises and things. Thanks a lot for the advice.




8/28/06:

Quote:

Hey Andy, I just got my new post set in, and I start regular trainign tommorrow. I've been doing lot's of knuckle push ups and hand stretching and my fists have gotten tough and have healed up. I can't wait for my training to really start. Oh and I've been doign lot's of bag work.




OK, I can certainly respect the veracity with which you attack your training.

However, It's crazy & irresponsible for you to disregard the advice you gave yourself 9 days ago. If you really did damage the bone in your knuckle, you DO need to take it easy on the hand for a while (9 days does not count).

If you don't take care of your body as a child, it will turn on you as an adult. Overworking injured joints/bones (especially in ones teens) can lead to decreased range of motion, bone brittleness, arthritis, etc. This is a FACT.

I'm sorry if this comes across as preachy, but I really like some of your posts & you seem like a young man with alot of drive and energy (attributes that seem to be somewhat lacking in youth nowadays).

If your goal is to one day reach shodan level and beyond, remember that that takes a large amount of MENTAL MATURITY as well as physical skill. Part of MENTAL MATURITY is understanding your body's limits and respecting them.

If you are truly dedicated to your martial arts training, understand that resting your hand for a while will NOT hinder your progress, a few weeks or months here or there when compared to a lifetime of training is nothing.

Please don't be stupid, follow your own advice & take it easy with the hand for a short while (maybe focus on your flexibility, stamina, and lower-body techniques).

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#281450 - 08/28/06 03:21 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: oldman]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
"It does not have to be that static. Theoreticaly your opponant could be in front to the side or behind. That was just one example. An example that was easier to draw that some others."

Great point. It was explained to me by my sensei that some kata movements are performed in their positions (ie: Naihanchi's hook block to the side) for instructional purposes- because they are easier to see/ draw/ explain that way).

We normally learn the motions/ movements to kata before understanding fully what they can mean. After mastering the motions, the real learning begins.

For example, if you interpret the 1st move from Oldman's cartoon as a hook-block, it's much more effective when performed from the front. The hook-block loses much of its power when it crosses your body's center-line (body mechanics), so a hook-block to the side is probably NOT the best way to defend a punch from the side.

By the way, great cartoon (as always). Personally, I like to trap my opponent's arm between my legs when Naihanchi side-stepping, breaking the elbow when stepping through (I like the nasty stuff).

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#281451 - 08/28/06 04:51 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Eternal_Student]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
How do your trap your opponent's arm between your legs? If is arm is between your legs you better sprawl, because he is probably picking you up to slam you on your head.

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#281452 - 08/28/06 05:44 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
My post has just a little bend in it. I've wrapped it with several thick layers of towel that provides plenty of padding it seems, and I'll add more if need be.
My right fist is finen ow, I haven't trained on it hard or regularly in monthes other than knuckle pushups and some occasional bag work. My left hand is the one I hurt recently and I tried working on it today but stopped after around thirty punches, it wasn't hurting much or anything, just some sores opened and I sdont want infections, and I think I want the bone to heal for a month or 2, it seems liek there's a split in the bone itself. My right fist feels great, and I'm having no problems with it whatsoever. I punched the board with minimal (60% max) force well over 100 times with no problems (I wore hand wraps to which helped). My training seems to be coming along well, and I still stretch my hands and fingers alot and massage them and soak them in warm water.
I do need to be much more careful and less aggressive with my training.


Edited by Stormdragon (08/28/06 07:01 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#281453 - 08/28/06 06:13 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: medulanet]
kakushiite Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 266
Loc: Ithaca, NY, USA
Medulant wrote:

"How do your trap your opponent's arm between your legs? If is arm is between your legs you better sprawl, because he is probably picking you up to slam you on your head.”

I have a leg arm lock from Naihanchi that I really like. The downward block/hook strike to the left side is used against an attacker, straight ahead attacking with a left strike (head works fine). I step off the line 45 degrees, with my right foot, in tight on the opponent, and intercept his left arm with both hands simultaneously (Yes I recognize the kata has no step here. That is added). Both hands, after intercepting on the outside of the arm, push up and to the left, using a circular, soft, interception and trap. Only after they begin the circle to the left, do they transition into the movement found in the kata, with the left hand grabbing the left forearm and turning as it pulls back to chamber, while the right “hook” does an arm bar, directly over the elbow. When I am done with this, my stance and hand locations are exactly as found in the Shotokan version of Tekki shodan. My step was in tight, not out wide, so my weight is over his elbow.

The key to a good initial arm bar is to keep you back straight when starting. Sinking into Naihanchi stance is the done with the trap/armbar. Only when you have a really good armbar can you lean forward slightly. This leaning uses the abdominals, and gravity, to push the ulna (forearm) bone harder on his elbow, while you can lift the wrist upwards.

The right cross over step drives the knee to the ground. You don't use your leg in a kicking motion to do this. You drive your entire body through the knee, using the foot only to catch the knee as you pass through it.

In Shotokan, after this right cross-over step, there is a big counterclockwise swing of the left leg. I use that to circle over the arm, so I wind up making contact with my left hamstring on his elbow. (If you are good, you can catch the back of his head with your heel on the downward motion.) I then drop my weight completely, going right down into a kneeling position (seisa), in really, really close, so the elbow is now under my butt. My knees are spread really wide here so my body weight can be way up high on his arm near his shoulder.

I finish by leaning forward, pulling the wrist up (my hand is behind my butt), to execute the arm bar. At the same time, I use a right ippon ken (index knuckle) to different pressure points. The one at the side of the jawbone, just under the ear is a good one. My forward leaning allows me to do both the armbar and drive down the ippon ken simultaneously.

Would it work in real life, who knows. But I find this is an eye-catching demo technique. And it has great faithfulness to the Shotokan kata movements.

Kakushite

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#281454 - 08/28/06 08:25 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
but I just don't see responding to an incoming attack with a horse stance....unless immediately setting up into a judo-like throw.



HI ED

You were rigth about there being a vast difference between Tekki and the different Naihanchi's. On my part it was a figure of speech



A very simple and natural move
Ok the attacker is kicking with the right leg (Mae Geri)
The defender is in front stance right leg forward(or even just standing naturaly).
by switching to horse stance (moving the left leg to become parallel with the front leg there fore avoiding the kick and grabbing the throat of the attacker with the hand you have one application of the first move in Naihanchi.


My problem with Naihanchi is there are so many different ways of doing the kata depending on the stlyle.Some say it was a tanren kata some say they based their sytem on it.
Who knows? I dont.

I get headaches with this kata.



Matsubayashi Ryu version has a sequence of seemingly arm blocks before the spear hand(if that is what it is) seen in the simpler versions.

From what I can gather kata was created to remember learned techniques. There fore the applications are going to be varied and not strictly adhered to as in the katas application( yes I know im stating the obviouse?



Edited by ANDY44 (08/28/06 08:26 PM)

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#281455 - 08/28/06 10:03 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: kakushiite]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Would it work in real life, who knows. But I find this is an eye-catching demo technique. And it has great faithfulness to the Shotokan kata movements.

Kakushite




Well, that is just my point. I can do or make up anything if my opponent lets me. But how does one trap a person's arm with their legs while standing and apply a joint lock by stepping over? I don't bother too much with stuff I can't do when someone is resisting.

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#281456 - 08/28/06 10:08 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
You're in luck Andy because I know. It is both a tanrenho kata and the foundation of Shorin Ryu. Stick with the Matsubayashi version it is a good one from Tomari and independent of Itosu. It is from Uku Giko. Actually all three Matsubayashi Naihanchi are. If you are practicing a style of karate whose foundation is not Naihanchi then it is probably of Naha te or Gendai Karate.

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#281457 - 08/28/06 10:38 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
I have practiced and graded in shotokan 1st dan years ago.More years ago than I care to remember.I never bothered with any more grades.
I have trained with kyokishin. muay thai and fought full contact(gloved hands and feet) again years ago. Thus the reason for the poem.

What I am trying to train now is jundokan goju ryu/
Problem is where I live it isnt available so I train another asscociataions goju ryu (dojo)
Neither train Naihanchi.
But I have also training parners like myself who are not interested in grades or teaching (not that we would) more just furthering our karate.
Confusing I know but its what I want.

Do you have any bunkia for the Matsubayashi version of Naihanchi ?
If you do I would be realy gratefull for it

Id so could you e mail it ?
Or would you care to discuss it?

Thanks

andy



Edited by ANDY44 (08/28/06 10:41 PM)

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#281458 - 08/29/06 12:13 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: ANDY44]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Sorry, no video. If you are interested in bunkai oyo I suggest look at Vince Morris's Shotokan. He has a lot of bunkai videos that have striking similarities to some of the bunkai oyo in Matsubayashi. However, Matsubayashi, especially at the advanced levels of application that it seems you are seeking is dependent on proper form and power generation. Its difficult to truly learn the application of the kata of Matsubayashi without direct instruction. I personally make no video and I know of no one who does make a video of Matsubayashi's advanced principles and kata applications.

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